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Post by alon on Sept 10, 2018 13:23:28 GMT -8
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is make unto salvation. Ephesions 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And Maranguape said: What Todah Yeshua said above is not true as it contradicts what Jesus himself said in his parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. He said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) It means that one becomes saved only through the obedience of the Law. And that goes not only according to God's Law but also the laws of all nations. Well, first off, since you do not believe in a resurrection and the possibility of a second death, we are not even talking about the same "salvation," are we? Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined for us what the term salvation means to you. That said, we can still address the apparent contradictions in the verses you've quoted. And as always, we'll try to give them context. That is the only way we can understand them. First is who were they written to? There were no "Christians" at the time. These letters were written to Jews of the Diaspora; or more accurately to the leadership of the Notsarim synagogue there, probably the Chazzan as he'd likely be the one to read it to the congregation. So these were  observant Jews and proselytes who were hearing this word to start with. They didn't need encouragement to keep , but to spread the besorah of Yeshua. Next let's consider context of the passage itself: Romans 10:4 (ESV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Christianity teaches that this is the end of the Law as in its termination. We take the broader (and more accurate view) that He is the goal of : 5056 τέλος télos, tel'-os; from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.Faith in Yeshua is the goal of all the Law, the prophets, and the writings. Romans 10:21 (ESV) But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
So bracketed by these verses and given the recipients of the original letter, we can begin to see Rom 10:9-10 in a new light. Paul, as was his mandate "To the Jew first" (Rom 1:16) was giving a salvation message to his own people- in this case training and encouraging believers to go and carry the good news: Romans 10:15 (ESV) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Isaiah 52:7 (ESV)
How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness,
who publishes salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”Now for the second quote: Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Prior to the development of Rabbinic Judaism of the 3rd and 4th centuries CE and on, most Jews (and certainly not those of the 1st Temple period and before) did not view salvation as based on works, i.e. how well one kept . When Nathan confronted Melech Dovid about his sins concerning Bathsheva, did he fall on his face and say "How may I work off these sins?" No, he immediately fell on his face and repented, begging HaShem to forgive him. For willful transgressions there is no sacrifice, and certainly no amount of "Hail Sarai's" (sic) one could do in order to be forgiven. Forgiveness, which is salvation, is given freely to one with a repentant heart. Now there were consequences, to be sure. But those were a result of, not payment for the sins. So, if it was Rabbinic Judaism, which did not exist in the 1st cen, why bring this up? Because RJ did not just one day appear on the scene. It had its roots in both Phariseeism and in some of the extremist groups which were coming into their own in the 1st cen BCE and CE. And from them there were those who were preaching you had to keep the whole law in order to be saved. Revelation 12:10-11 (ESV) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Revelation is written in the Jewish Apocalyptic tradition, and speaks of future events. But fortunately this (unlike much of the book) is easy to understand. It is a celebration of the victory of Yeshua, not over the law, but over the enemy who would distract us from the law and thus steal our salvation. Because none can snatch us from His hand (John 10:28), but we still have free will and so can walk away. Ha satan did not force Chava to eat of the fruit, he convinced her. He is always trying to convince us to do evil, and he is always there to accuse us over our failures. That is why in the previous examples Rav Shaul is exhorting the Messianic believers in Rome; learn and preach the besorah of Yeshua, which you are correct maranguape includes - but understood properly, as pointing always to Moshiach Yeshua. Dan C |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 10, 2018 14:28:40 GMT -8
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to  and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. [/font]This is nor literal. Daniel 12:2,3 is a reference to the Jews in exile. They shall awake at the end of the exile. Some to everlasting life is about those who return to the Land of Israel to live the rest of their life and some to everlasting contempt is about the Jews that prefer to remain when the exile is over. Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.[/quote] [/font]Isaiah 26:19 is a similar reference to the Jews in exile just like in the prophecy of the "Dry Bones" of Ezekiel 37:11,12. Israel and Judah in exile are given the Spirit of HaShem to rise and return to the Land of Israel. BTW, Whenever the Jews were taken into exile it was as if they were cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel, and graves were assigned to them among the nations. (Isaiah 53:8.9) For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me![/quote] [/font]The whole book of Job is an allegory and, according to Moses Maimonides, the personage "Job" never existed. The book must have been written in post-exilic time. Hence, my Redeemer lives aka HaShem and, at the end of the exile, after my skin has been destroyed I shall see the Lord with my own eyes in the Land of the Living. Since the bottomline of every allegory or parable is the point why it was written, the bottomline of Job is to show the role of Israel qua Emmanuel to the Gentiles as Job represents Israel and his three friends the Gentiles. (Job 42:7-10) “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”[/quote] [/font]This is a reference to the war of Gog of the land of Magog when they attack Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 38:1,2; 39:11,12) is almost an apocalyptic text, where he sees the renewal of the entire universe. Isaiah 25:7-8 (ESV) And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken. And there are several less explicit texts that hint at a resurrection:[/quote] Any thing that hints at resurrection when reading the TNK is pure imagination as a result of Christian preconceived notions. [/font] I shall ransom them from the power of Sheol; I shall redeem them from Death. O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes.[/quote] Hosea was speaking about Israel the Ten Tribes when this fell at the hands of the Assyrians and was transferred into an endless exile but not death because the Lord would redeem them from death. There is nothing here about redeem at all from death. All those Israelis died anyway and death has kept on stinging to this very day. “Come, let us return to the Lord for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him. Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord; his going out is sure as the dawn he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.” [/font]And both Elijah and Elisha resurrected persons dead for 2 days (only Messiah could resurrect after 2 days).[/quote] "After two days and on the third He will revive us up" is a reference to the fact that HaShem, Who struck us down into exile will raise us up in three days means in a short time we will return to live with Him as before. Now, for Elijah and Elisha, I am am sure those two times when they had to make use of resuscitation to save two boys who had had a stroke for being in the field in a very hot day. Dan (happy to oblige) C[/quote] |
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Post by alon on Sept 10, 2018 17:35:57 GMT -8
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. [/font]This is nor literal. Daniel 12:2,3 is a reference to the Jews in exile. They shall awake at the end of the exile. Some to everlasting life is about those who return to the Land of Israel to live the rest of their life and some to everlasting contempt is about the Jews that prefer to remain when the exile is over. Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.[/quote] [/font]Isaiah 26:19 is a similar reference to the Jews in exile just like in the prophecy of the "Dry Bones" of Ezekiel 37:11,12. Israel and Judah in exile are given the Spirit of HaShem to rise and return to the Land of Israel. BTW, Whenever the Jews were taken into exile it was as if they were cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel, and graves were assigned to them among the nations. (Isaiah 53:8.9) For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me![/quote] [/font]The whole book of Job is an allegory and, according to Moses Maimonides, the personage "Job" never existed. The book must have been written in post-exilic time. Hence, my Redeemer lives aka HaShem and, at the end of the exile, after my skin has been destroyed I shall see the Lord with my own eyes in the Land of the Living. Since the bottomline of every allegory or parable is the point why it was written, the bottomline of Job is to show the role of Israel qua Emmanuel to the Gentiles as Job represents Israel and his three friends the Gentiles. (Job 42:7-10) “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”[/quote] [/font]This is a reference to the war of Gog of the land of Magog when they attack Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 38:1,2; 39:11,12) is almost an apocalyptic text, where he sees the renewal of the entire universe. Isaiah 25:7-8 (ESV) And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken. And there are several less explicit texts that hint at a resurrection:[/quote] Any thing that hints at resurrection when reading the TNK is pure imagination as a result of Christian preconceived notions. [/font] I shall ransom them from the power of Sheol; I shall redeem them from Death. O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes.[/quote] Hosea was speaking about Israel the Ten Tribes when this fell at the hands of the Assyrians and was transferred into an endless exile but not death because the Lord would redeem them from death. There is nothing here about redeem at all from death. All those Israelis died anyway and death has kept on stinging to this very day. “Come, let us return to the Lord for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him. Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord; his going out is sure as the dawn he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.” [/font]And both Elijah and Elisha resurrected persons dead for 2 days (only Messiah could resurrect after 2 days).[/quote] "After two days and on the third He will revive us up" is a reference to the fact that HaShem, Who struck us down into exile will raise us up in three days means in a short time we will return to live with Him as before. Now, for Elijah and Elisha, I am am sure those two times when they had to make use of resuscitation to save two boys who had had a stroke for being in the field in a very hot day. Dan (happy to oblige) C[/quote] [/quote] maranguape, everything in the TNK cannot be allegory, not literal, or applicable only to Israel. And the attitude you show is not one of scholarship or valid discussion, "Any thing that hints at resurrection when reading the TNK is pure imagination as a result of Christian preconceived notions." You show the same attitude as Christians, who disregard anything they don't like by marginalizing or spiritualizing it.
However the real problem I see in your post here is in the denial that the prophets resurrected those people; "Now, for Elijah and Elisha, I am am sure those two times when they had to make use of resuscitation to save two boys who had had a stroke for being in the field in a very hot day." You are sure? Because HaShem can't do it? Did the prophet just decide to lie about what he'd done? I mean, he must have known whether he was performing a healing or a resurrection. Or maybe HaShem thought it would look better that way and told both Elijah and Elisha to lie. Do you see the problem you have here? Because there is absolutely no way this plays out well for HaShem if you are correct.
And just because those were ancients does not mean they were idiots. They would have known the difference in heat stroke and death. The patient is still breathing gives a lot away, as do the pupils, skin remaining warm as opposed to a body going cold, features going slack. I was an EMT on a volunteer crew, and I know what heat illnesses and death both look like. I can also tell you that traveling to get a prophet, then laying his body over the patients is NOT how to treat heat stroke, and the cure is NOT that miraculously quick.
On this point there is no yielding. Neither HaShem nor His prophets nor His Word lied. HaShem can raise the dead, and His prophets could do that miracle in His power. And they did it exactly as they said, because any other interpretation is blasphemous.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Sept 13, 2018 20:10:49 GMT -8
maranguape, everything in the TNK cannot be allegory, not literal, or applicable only to Israel. And the attitude you show is not one of scholarship or valid discussion, "Any thing that hints at resurrection when reading the TNK is pure imagination as a result of Christian preconceived notions." You show the same attitude as Christians, who disregard anything they don't like by marginalizing or spiritualizing it.
However the real problem I see in your post here is in the denial that the prophets resurrected those people; "Now, for Elijah and Elisha, I am am sure those two times when they had to make use of resuscitation to save two boys who had had a stroke for being in the field in a very hot day." You are sure? Because HaShem can't do it? Did the prophet just decide to lie about what he'd done? I mean, he must have known whether he was performing a healing or a resurrection. Or maybe HaShem thought it would look better that way and told both Elijah and Elisha to lie. Do you see the problem you have here? Because there is absolutely no way this plays out well for HaShem if you are correct.
And just because those were ancients does not mean they were idiots. They would have known the difference in heat stroke and death. The patient is still breathing gives a lot away, as do the pupils, skin remaining warm as opposed to a body going cold, features going slack. I was an EMT on a volunteer crew, and I know what heat illnesses and death both look like. I can also tell you that traveling to get a prophet, then laying his body over the patients is NOT how to treat heat stroke, and the cure is NOT that miraculously quick.
On this point there is no yielding. Neither HaShem nor His prophets nor His Word lied. HaShem can raise the dead, and His prophets could do that miracle in His power. And they did it exactly as they said, because any other interpretation is blasphemous.
Dan C
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Post by maranguape on Sept 14, 2018 14:22:10 GMT -8
maranguape, everything in the TNK cannot be allegory, not literal, or applicable only to Israel. And the attitude you show is not one of scholarship or valid discussion, "Any thing that hints at resurrection when reading the TNK is pure imagination as a result of Christian preconceived notions." You show the same attitude as Christians, who disregard anything they don't like by marginalizing or spiritualizing it.
However the real problem I see in your post here is in the denial that the prophets resurrected those people; "Now, for Elijah and Elisha, I am am sure those two times when they had to make use of resuscitation to save two boys who had had a stroke for being in the field in a very hot day." You are sure? Because HaShem can't do it? Did the prophet just decide to lie about what he'd done? I mean, he must have known whether he was performing a healing or a resurrection. Or maybe HaShem thought it would look better that way and told both Elijah and Elisha to lie. Do you see the problem you have here? Because there is absolutely no way this plays out well for HaShem if you are correct.
And just because those were ancients does not mean they were idiots. They would have known the difference in heat stroke and death. The patient is still breathing gives a lot away, as do the pupils, skin remaining warm as opposed to a body going cold, features going slack. I was an EMT on a volunteer crew, and I know what heat illnesses and death both look like. I can also tell you that traveling to get a prophet, then laying his body over the patients is NOT how to treat heat stroke, and the cure is NOT that miraculously quick.
On this point there is no yielding. Neither HaShem nor His prophets nor His Word lied. HaShem can raise the dead, and His prophets could do that miracle in His power. And they did it exactly as they said, because any other interpretation is blasphemous.
Dan C
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Maranguape: I am well aware that, not every thing in the TNK is allegorical. We have more in the TNK about History than allegory but, as Israel is concerned, the whole TNK revolves around the "Son of God" aka Israel. (Exodus 4:22,23 "Israel is My Son", said HaShem. Are you
implying that my discussion is not valid because I lack scholarship for not speaking according to Christian preconceived notions! I hope not!
The prophets did not resurrect any one because they were Jewish and well aware that bodily resurrection is against the TNK. To be a prophet
in Israel, the claim of a call from HaShem was not enough; one had to go through the school of prophets where they would learn not only Jewish Theology but also to apply First Aid treatment; and the motion according to Elijah and Elisha only leads to resuscitation. They knew what they were doing to add to it something against the Word of HaShem. And for your assertion that HaShem can do every thing, couldn't be more true. HaShem can do every thing He wants but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. It means that we must learn the TNK as it is and not add our own gospel into it. And last but not least, when you say above that any other interpretation is blasphemous, it surely must be because it lacks Christian preconceived notions. Sorry Alon but, I am Jewish, not a Christian.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 14, 2018 15:02:24 GMT -8
But Alon is quoting Jewish scriptures that say very clearly people were resurrected. You have to add in your interpretation as he said because he's just stating what is written. This isn't just a Christian belief. It's writen in Jewish scriptures recognized by Jewish people. There are, I would guess many, Jewish people who believe these were resurrections; and there are Jewish people who believe in an end time resurrection. Read about the Mount of Olives cemetery before you disagree please. Some Jewish people think it will be the first place to be resurrected. I'm really confused by what you say because it really doesn't seem characteristic of the Jewish beliefs I'm familiar with, but I'm not Jewish so I feel really uncomfortable saying that. Yet a quick google search of Judausm + resurrection shows differently than what you're saying. There are Jewish people who believe there were bodily resurrections as stated in your scriptures, and at least some believe in a future bodily resurrection. What type of Judaism do you classify yourself as if you could share please just so I can understand more the differences I'm seeing. I'm also curious if you believe what Christians call the Old Testament as written because you really just don't seem to.
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Post by maranguape on Sept 14, 2018 15:16:57 GMT -8
And Maranguape said: What Todah Yeshua said above is not true as it contradicts what Jesus himself said in his parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. He said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) It means that one becomes saved only through the obedience of the Law. And that goes not only according to God's Law but also the laws of all nations. Well, first off, since you do not believe in a resurrection and the possibility of a second death, we are not even talking about the same "salvation," are we? Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined for us what the term salvation means to you. That said, we can still address the apparent contradictions in the verses you've quoted. And as always, we'll try to give them context. That is the only way we can understand them. First is who were they written to? There were no "Christians" at the time. These letters were written to Jews of the Diaspora; or more accurately to the leadership of the Notsarim synagogue there, probably the Chazzan as he'd likely be the one to read it to the congregation. So these were observant Jews and proselytes who were hearing this word to start with. They didn't need encouragement to keep , but to spread the besorah of Yeshua. Next let's consider context of the passage itself: Romans 10:4 (ESV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Christianity teaches that this is the end of the Law as in its termination. We take the broader (and more accurate view) that He is the goal of : 5056 τέλος télos, tel'-os; from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.Faith in Yeshua is the goal of all the Law, the prophets, and the writings. Romans 10:21 (ESV) But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
So bracketed by these verses and given the recipients of the original letter, we can begin to see Rom 10:9-10 in a new light. Paul, as was his mandate "To the Jew first" (Rom 1:16) was giving a salvation message to his own people- in this case training and encouraging believers to go and carry the good news: Romans 10:15 (ESV) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Isaiah 52:7 (ESV)
How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness,
who publishes salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”Now for the second quote: Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Prior to the development of Rabbinic Judaism of the 3rd and 4th centuries CE and on, most Jews (and certainly not those of the 1st Temple period and before) did not view salvation as based on works, i.e. how well one kept . When Nathan confronted Melech Dovid about his sins concerning Bathsheva, did he fall on his face and say "How may I work off these sins?" No, he immediately fell on his face and repented, begging HaShem to forgive him. For willful transgressions there is no sacrifice, and certainly no amount of "Hail Sarai's" (sic) one could do in order to be forgiven. Forgiveness, which is salvation, is given freely to one with a repentant heart. Now there were consequences, to be sure. But those were a result of, not payment for the sins. So, if it was Rabbinic Judaism, which did not exist in the 1st cen, why bring this up? Because RJ did not just one day appear on the scene. It had its roots in both Phariseeism and in some of the extremist groups which were coming into their own in the 1st cen BCE and CE. And from them there were those who were preaching you had to keep the whole law in order to be saved. Revelation 12:10-11 (ESV) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Revelation is written in the Jewish Apocalyptic tradition, and speaks of future events. But fortunately this (unlike much of the book) is easy to understand. It is a celebration of the victory of Yeshua, not over the law, but over the enemy who would distract us from the law and thus steal our salvation. Because none can snatch us from His hand (John 10:28), but we still have free will and so can walk away. Ha satan did not force Chava to eat of the fruit, he convinced her. He is always trying to convince us to do evil, and he is always there to accuse us over our failures. That is why in the previous examples Rav Shaul is exhorting the Messianic believers in Rome; learn and preach the besorah of Yeshua, which you are correct maranguape includes - but understood properly, as pointing always to Moshiach Yeshua. Dan C ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a thread about the different kinds of salvation there are and I am somehow sure that I have posted here somewhere but, since the posters speak as if they have never read it, I request the permission to repost it: TWO KINDS OF SALVATION - 1. Personal salvation and; 2. Universal salvation. Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law. Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noachide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Genesis. 8:21,22) Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews. Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24) |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 14, 2018 15:46:10 GMT -8
But Alon is quoting Jewish scriptures that say very clearly people were resurrected. You have to add in your interpretation as he said because he's just stating what is written. This isn't just a Christian belief. It's written in Jewish scriptures recognized by Jewish people. There are, I would guess many, Jewish people who believe these were resurrections; and there are Jewish people who believe in an end time resurrection. Read about the Mount of Olives cemetery before you disagree please. Some Jewish people think it will be the first place to be resurrected. I'm really confused by what you say because it really doesn't seem characteristic of the Jewish beliefs I'm familiar with, but I'm not Jewish so I feel really uncomfortable saying that. Yet a quick google search of Judaism + resurrection shows differently than what you're saying. There are Jewish people who believe there were bodily resurrections as stated in your scriptures, and at least some believe in a future bodily resurrection. What type of Judaism do you classify yourself as if you could share please just so I can understand more the differences I'm seeing. I'm also curious if you believe what Christians call the Old Testament as written because you really just don't seem to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elizabeth, as you imply above, the "Scriptures very clearly state that people were resurrected." Are you suggesting that the TNK is contradicting itself? It says quite clearly that once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) Bodily resurrection implies a return from the grave and if that's true, the TNK contradicts itself and that could not be true. If some Jews assert that they believe in bodily resurrection, it must be by faith, not by sight. If I ever met one of them, I would tell them to stop obeying Paul instead of HaShem. If you read II Corinthians 5:7, Paul wrote to his followers that they must walk by faith and not by sight. And I say, if to walk by sight is to walk with understanding, it is only obvious that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark as they must leave the understanding with Paul. That would be shameful to be acted by a Jew. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 14, 2018 17:24:05 GMT -8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elizabeth, as you imply above, the "Scriptures very clearly state that people were resurrected." Are you suggesting that the TNK is contradicting itself? It says quite clearly that once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) Bodily resurrection implies a return from the grave and if that's true, the TNK contradicts itself and that could not be true. If some Jews assert that they believe in bodily resurrection, it must be by faith, not by sight. If I ever met one of them, I would tell them to stop obeying Paul instead of HaShem. If you read II Corinthians 5:7, Paul wrote to his followers that they must walk by faith and not by sight. And I say, if to walk by sight is to walk with understanding, it is only obvious that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark as they must leave the understanding with Paul. That would be shameful to be acted by a Jew. And he said," while the child was alive, I fasted and wept. for I said 'who knows the L-RD may be gracious to me and let the child live. But now he is dead. Wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 2 Samuel 12:23-24 G-d told David his son would die (2 Samuel 12:14). David fasted and prayed in the hopes that G-d would relent and the child would not die. This is not the same thing as resurrection. This verse isn't comparable to the ones we have referenced. David accepted G-d's judgment that the child died. This has nothing to do with resurrection. It is also not about coming back from Sheol. It's simply David accepting G-d's judgment and submitting to it. Therefore, no there is no contradiction between accepting both this verse and the ones that we have previously pointed out that are about resurrection. So do you believe in G-d since you've never seen Him? Judausm is built on faith as it's defined by promises yet to be fulfilled from it's conception and people trusting G-d when it didn't make a lot of sense. Abraham didn't see the nation that would come from him. Sarah was chastened by G-d for a lack of faith when she laughed at the thought she would have a child. Abraham was willing to kill his son trusting G-d though it didn't make sense. The people leaving Egypt didn't see where they were going, and when they showed a lack of faith after having seen Canaan, they were judged harshly for it. They wondered about 40 years just to end up dying in the desert- never entering the land. That judgment was precisely because of their lack of faith, and their lack of faith occurred when they based their understanding on what they saw. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 15, 2018 10:20:15 GMT -8
Maranguape,
The prayer titled 'Gibor' in the Amidah is all about resurrection and obviously a very Jewish prayer. I was reminded of it while listening to the service of Chavurot HaMashiach today. Jewish people can and do believe in the resurrection of the dead, and they don't find it contradictory to the TNK. Therefore, I'm not sure why you're making it such an issue with us except that you think your claim undermines our beliefs in Yeshua's resurrection.
Meanwhile, you're also undermining centuries of Jewish thought, tradition and prayers. You're not just going against us. You are also going against your own people's ideas including the traditional, foundational, most recognized prayer of Judaism.
Do you agree the Amidah is a central worship tradition based in and found in Judaism. I'm really trying to understand your thought processes here, so I'm asking cause what you're saying isn't consistent with it.
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Post by alon on Sept 15, 2018 14:52:23 GMT -8
I am implying that your discussion consists mostly of circular arguments. You never acknowledge when a point is dealt with, you just go to another thread and restate it almost (if not) verbatim.
There are other places in the Bible where those other than Israel are called Sons of God. Two examples that were before Israel even existed:
Genesis 6:1-2a (ESV) When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.
Job 38:7 (ESV) when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
And not all prophets went to school. Elisha studied under Elijah, but more as an apprentice than anything:
1 Kings 19:19-21 (ESV) So he departed from there and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen in front of him, and he was with the twelfth. Elijah passed by him and cast his cloak upon him. And he left the oxen and ran after Elijah and said, “Let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you.” And he said to him, “Go back again, for what have I done to you?” And he returned from following him and took the yoke of oxen and sacrificed them and boiled their flesh with the yokes of the oxen and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he arose and went after Elijah and assisted him.
And there is no law against resurrection. In fact, one of the signs of the Messiah was that only he could resurrect someone dead more than 3 days. It was one of the four things only the Messiah was said to be able to do in Jewish tradition:
1 – heal a leper
2 – cast out a mute demon
3 – heal a man blind from birth
4 – raise someone from the dead after three days.
That's not from Christianity, but Judaism. And as others have pointed out to this day many Jews believe in resurrection. So you cannot continue to throw out the accusation that we are from Christian tradition and you from Jewish. Messianism is not Christianity, nor do we hold to Christian beliefs. And not all Judaism, now or during the first cen holds to there being no resurrection. And your denials aside, the Bible clearly speaks of its being true.
You seem to be a very literal person, so I can see why you allegorize everything that you have a problem with. But you must be careful with those "all" or "everything" statements, even when the "all" is implied. That no one can return from the grave in this lifetime is generally a true statement. However there can (and are) exceptions. It's like when the Caesar declared everyone had to pay taxes. Everyone? Amazonian Indians? Indian Indians? And there were no tax dodgers in the Roman Empire? "Absolutes" more often than not are anything but absolute.
And the TNK very clearly records that both Elijah and Elisha performed resurrections, not resuscitations. You resuscitate drowning victims, but resuscitating a victim of heat stroke (as you assert elsewhere) would do nothing to treat the underlying cause of death- he was too hot for too long without adequate hydration and rest. So unless you can show me in scripture where the prophets opened two large bore IV's and dunked him in a vat of ice water before he laid over the patient and resuscitated him, I'm going with resurrected, just like the Bible does say. That a prophet may have learned anything else, including medicine is irrelevant. Because he certainly did not learn to lie for his God!
2 Kings 4:32-35 (ESV) When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed. So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the Lord. Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm. Then he got up again and walked once back and forth in the house, and went up and stretched himself upon him. The child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
I taught CPR for years, and I can tell you that other than putting his mouth on the boy's mouth this sounds nothing like a resuscitation! The boy was dead, and had been for much longer than the 5 minutes until the brain suffers irrevocable damage due to anoxia; far longer than the heart or other organs had before they suffered necrosis. It's not like you dial 9-1-1 and a prophet comes to your door with lights and sirens. It takes time to go and get him and bring him back. More time than a victim of heat stroke has before death is irrevocable.
Humor aside, we believe the Biblical account. The interpretation you offer seems like an apology for the resurrection of Yeshua. If you can interpret the TNK to outlaw resurrection, and make it seem like there were no other instances of resurrections, well then you can dismiss this Yeshua guy out of hand. Only it only works or those predisposed to disbelieve in Yeshua, and thus to accept any idea (however absurd) that disproves Him as HaMoshiach. We here hold no such views.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 15, 2018 15:00:01 GMT -8
I remember that post, however that is not what I am asking. What is salvation to you? What are you as a person or a people being saved from? If there is no resurrection, why do you even need salvation?
Dan C
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observant Jews and proselytes who were hearing this word to start with. They didn't need encouragement to keep 
and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
