Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Aug 7, 2013 16:28:21 GMT -8
Shalom and Blessings.  Lishmah, What about this verse? Isaiah 44:5 One will say, “I belong to ADONAI.” Another will be called by the name of Ya‘akov. Yet another will write that he belongs to ADONAI. and adopt the surname Isra’el.’ ” (Complete Jewish Bible) Adonai Will Save Those Who Come to Him.✡ (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y'sha' Yahu Isaiah 56:1–8. Shalom aleikhem Miykhael, Are you saying that Yeshayahu 44:5 is not referring to the Jewish people, Israel? It most certainly is... (Isaiah 44:1-6)And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. As I will pour water on the thirsty and running water on dry land, I will pour My spirit on your seed and My blessing on your offspring. And they shall sprout among the grass like willows on rivulets of water. This one shall say, "I am the Lord's," and this one shall call himself by the name of Jacob, and this one shall write with his hand, "To the Lord," and adopt the name Israel. So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God. In Rashi's commentary on the Chumash which you can view HERE he states that Yeshayahu chapter 56 refers to prosolytes, and converts, not all non-Jews in general. But I should do some research on that particular passage before I comment on it any further. |
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Post by alon on Aug 8, 2013 19:41:56 GMT -8
Sorry it's taking so long. I'm pretty busy right now so wasn't able to give this the attention it deserves. But I just put on a coat of paint, and I can either watch it dry or ...  I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are many pesukim in Tanakh that one can cite to support the view that HaShem wants a personal relationship with men/women of all nations. Yehsayahu 1:18 is not one of them. One should cite scripture in its proper context in order to establish or support sound doctrine. In the TNK, almost everything God said was addressed to the Hebrew people. Even "Bereshith" was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. So if that is your criteria, then gentiles could only have the promises by becoming a Jew- which we know was the case after the nation was established. But try this: David describes the relationship of God and man in Psalm 8:3-6 “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained ; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty ! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands ; You have put all things under his feet,” Romans 9:1 ...and also bearing witness is my conscience, governed by the Ruach HaKodesh: 2 my grief is so great, the pain in my heart so constant, 3 that I could wish myself actually under God's curse and separated from the Messiah, if it would help my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4 the people of Isra'el! They were made God's children, the Sh'khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs, likewise the giving of the , the Temple service and the promises; 5 the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be ADONAI for ever! Amen. 6 But the present condition of Isra'el does not mean that the Word of God has failed. For not everyone from Isra'el is truly part of Isra'el; 7 indeed, not all the descendants are seed of Avraham; rather, "What is to be called your 'seed' will be in Yitz'chak." 8 In other words, it is not the physical children who are children of God, but the children the promise refers to who are considered seed. It sounds to me more like he is lamenting for those Jews who have not accepted Yeshua as HaMoshiach. Romans 8:24 It was in this hope that we were saved.He doesn't just say it is for the Jews who were saved, or that they were to be saved in the resurrection, but "we" were saved. Considering that this letter was written to the believers in Rome, it is pretty clear that anyone who believes in Yeshua can now, like those who believed and joined Israel before, look forward to the resurrection. Not waiting for adoption, but for the resurrection. Dan |
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Post by alon on Aug 9, 2013 12:41:23 GMT -8
Here we have another word that needs to be defined...besorah. Strongs 1309. besorah besorah: tidings Original Word: áÀÌùÒåÉøÈä Word Origin- from basar Part of Speech: NounFeminine Transliteration: besorah Phonetic Spelling: (bes-o-raw') Short Definition: news Definition: tidings, carry news (1), news (4), reward (2). Brown-Driver-Briggs: áÀÌùÒøÈä noun feminine tidings (compare Arabic see BaNB 61; Sabean áùøï DHMZMG 1876, 672), 2 Samuel 4:10 3t.; áÀÌùÒåÊøÈä 2 Samuel 18:25,27 — 1 good tidings 1 Kings 7:9. 2 tidings, news 2 Samuel 18:20,25; with èåáä 2 Samuel 18:27. 3 reward for good tidings 2 Samuel 4:10; 2 Samuel 18:22. Besorah can also be the “good news” which we call the gospel. Gospel itself is not a good word, as it comes from the Teutonic “Got”, or “God”, combined with “spell” and shortened to “gospel.” Besorah is a much better word, but everyone would look at me like I’ve lost it again; so good news is probably where I’ll end up. How do you see the word "besorah"? Dan C (the Hebrew and Aramaic comes up as code, but you can get the drift) |
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Aug 9, 2013 16:06:43 GMT -8
Here we have another word that needs to be defined...besorah. Strongs 1309. besorah besorah: tidings Original Word: áÀÌùÒåÉøÈä Word Origin- from basar Part of Speech: NounFeminine Transliteration: besorah Phonetic Spelling: (bes-o-raw') Short Definition: news Definition: tidings, carry news (1), news (4), reward (2). Brown-Driver-Briggs: áÀÌùÒøÈä noun feminine tidings (compare Arabic see BaNB 61; Sabean áùøï DHMZMG 1876, 672), 2 Samuel 4:10 3t.; áÀÌùÒåÊøÈä 2 Samuel 18:25,27 — 1 good tidings 1 Kings 7:9. 2 tidings, news 2 Samuel 18:20,25; with èåáä 2 Samuel 18:27. 3 reward for good tidings 2 Samuel 4:10; 2 Samuel 18:22. Besorah can also be the “good news” which we call the gospel. Gospel itself is not a good word, as it comes from the Teutonic “Got”, or “God”, combined with “spell” and shortened to “gospel.” Besorah is a much better word, but everyone would look at me like I’ve lost it again; so good news is probably where I’ll end up. How do you see the word "besorah"? Dan C (the Hebrew and Aramaic comes up as code, but you can get the drift) A dictionary definition is not what I meant. I was referring to the overall concept of the gospel. Exactly what is the good news? Shabbat draws nigh, so my reply to post #46 must wait until afterward. Shalom uvracha. |
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Post by alon on Aug 9, 2013 21:21:01 GMT -8
A dictionary definition is not what I meant. I was referring to the overall concept of the gospel. Exactly what is the good news? Shabbat draws nigh, so my reply to post #46 must wait until afterward. Shalom uvracha. I study on Shabbat, and sometimes answer posts that make me think ... I trust God doesn't take offense. Gen 24:58 Then they called Rebekah and said to her, "Will you go with this man ?" And she said, "I will go." This is a picture of the besorah of Yeshua in one verse. Rebekah had never even seen Isaac. But his servant, a picture of the Ruach HaChodesh came to her and invited her to go, and she did. Others said wait, but the servant said go now, and she agreed. This is how it works; the Ruach invites you to go, and you say yes or no. No equivocation; equivocating is "no." We now know that this one act of obedience to the will of God opened up a whole new life for Rebekah- she was part the establishment of a nation; God's people, and yours. So it is with every true believer, God has a plan, an adventure for us to work out. The truly good news is He goes before us to prepare the way, and He is with us through every task, great or small. We only must trust and obey. 1 Sam 15:22 Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD ? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. Isaiah 40:1 "Comfort, O comfort My people," says your God. 2 "Speak kindly to Jerusalem ; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the LORD'S hand Double for all her sins." 3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness ; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God. 4 "Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low ;... Clearly it is God doing the leveling here! There are of course many such verses in both the TNK and B'rit Chadasha. But this is the besorah, to heed the calling of the Ruach, accept and follow God. It's the great adventure. It is for now and for eternity with Him. Dan |
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Post by visionary on Aug 23, 2013 4:29:27 GMT -8
From the least to the greatest.... John is the least...imagine those who are more righteous than a pharisee. The offer of salvation is accepted at the confess that He is Lord.. the Life in Him is a salvation walk. .. Then comes the question of how bad [70 x 7] does it get before.. you have crossed the line into knowingly commit sin.........and lose salvation.
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Post by alon on Aug 23, 2013 9:21:33 GMT -8
... Then comes the question of how bad [70 x 7] does it get before.. you have crossed the line into knowingly commit sin.........and lose salvation. Then I'm in trouble already ... Dan  C |
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Post by visionary on Aug 24, 2013 11:11:36 GMT -8
Shalom and Blessings. Lishmah, What about this verse? Isaiah 44:5 One will say, “I belong to ADONAI.” Another will be called by the name of Ya‘akov. Yet another will write that he belongs to ADONAI. and adopt the surname Isra’el.’ ” (Complete Jewish Bible) Adonai Will Save Those Who Come to Him.✡ (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y'sha' Yahu Isaiah 56:1–8. Shalom aleikhem Miykhael, Are you saying that Yeshayahu 44:5 is not referring to the Jewish people, Israel? It most certainly is... (Isaiah 44:1-6)And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. As I will pour water on the thirsty and running water on dry land, I will pour My spirit on your seed and My blessing on your offspring. And they shall sprout among the grass like willows on rivulets of water. This one shall say, "I am the Lord's," and this one shall call himself by the name of Jacob, and this one shall write with his hand, "To the Lord," and adopt the name Israel. So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God. In Rashi's commentary on the Chumash which you can view HERE he states that Yeshayahu chapter 56 refers to prosolytes, and converts, not all non-Jews in general. But I should do some research on that particular passage before I comment on it any further. As John pointed out Yeshua is the Aleph/Tav of scripture. In Genesis Jacob has an aleph/tav before his name... by Isaiah, he doesn't. ... so in verse 20 of Isaiah it talks about his 'aleph/tav" soul that he can not deliver. By Is 45:9 it states "woe to him who strives with "aleph/tav" Maker!" and goes on to say "let the potsherd strive with "aleph/tav" clay vessels...." Point I am trying to make is that Jacob or Israel without Aleph/Tav is not the blessed Jacob or Israel with Aleph/Tav. but of course if you are reading an english version you will not find the aleph/tav hebrew letters ... so you will not be able to see this. |
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2013 5:37:49 GMT -8
I see no reason to continue when my posts are altered without my knowledge, or permission. Sorry, but that is just plain unethical. Sorry it's been a while since I was able to get back here. Things are a bit hectic right now, and not looking to get better any time soon. I'm also sorry you took offense at the mods censorship. But if you are willing, I still think there is much we could discuss within the parameters of the SoP here. You always make me think- a thing my school teachers would have said makes you special, even unique! Dan C |
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Sept 4, 2013 14:24:07 GMT -8
Sorry it's been a while since I was able to get back here. Things are a bit hectic right now, and not looking to get better any time soon. I'm also sorry you took offense at the mods censorship. But if you are willing, I still think there is much we could discuss within the parameters of the SoP here. Okay, I guess we could do that. I would still like to go back to your first posts though. Christianity has redefined many Jewish doctrines, and I think that is where you and I are misunderstanding one another. You always make me think- a thing my school teachers would have said makes you special, even unique! Thank you, Dan, but I believe it is Judaism that is unique, and it is what makes you think, not me. But I'll take a compliment whenever I can get one! |
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2013 15:39:23 GMT -8
Just a few quick reply's, as I have to get ready to go to Synagogue this evening; and I have to travel a ways to get there. Then I'm going to join ya'll in a much needed rest (starting by traveling back- I know; but ...  ) Okay, I guess we could do that. I would still like to go back to your first posts though. Christianity has redefined many Jewish doctrines, and I think that is where you and I are misunderstanding one another. Oh, I'm sure of that! We even redefine each other! And then there's us Messianics as well- much as with Judaism, seems no one can agree, and we all get at least part of what everyone else believes wrong. That's one of the advantages of a well moderated site; everything is discussed within the parameters of the site owners beliefs, as laid out in their statement of faith. By the way, they are pretty close to what I believe in their SoF. They don't require you to believe it to post here, which would be foolish in your case. I've seen several Jewish viewpoints stated in older posts and discussed as they relate to the SoF. So you can hold my feet to the fire with the SoF. I'll just try to answer questions, and probably have to get out my reference books and dig to do it. At the same time, if anyone here sees something I put up they disagree with or needs tweaking, feel free to comment! I am honestly new enough in Messianism that I am still questioning and even changing many of my views. And, as relates to TL's statement here, I really am aware that I need to at least understand the Jewish viewpoint and thought processes better on almost everything. I'll give Elohim the credit, but yes, Judaism is unique as only He could make it! But He uses us to improve each other- iron sharpens iron ... Shalom! Dan C |
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Sept 11, 2013 17:43:27 GMT -8
I received your most recent email, Alon. Yedidyah and I have worked out our differences, so we can continue here rather than switching to email only. You just want my comments made public don't you?  |
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Sept 12, 2013 2:53:26 GMT -8
In the TNK, almost everything God said was addressed to the Hebrew people. So if that is your criteria...
My "criteria" for what? My point is that applying everything HaShem spoke to the Jewish people to yourself is really horrible exegesis, Alon. And not everything in Tanakh was spoken to Jews. What about from Adam to Noach?
then gentiles could only have the promises by...
Now here is the part I want to concentrate on. Do you see how you worded that? Not only do you recognize that the covenant promises are very desirable, but that you must "do something" to secure them. Before we get ahead of ourselves, I want you to take your time and think about something. Are you more concerned about securing those promises [no matter what, even if it means twisting Scripture] than you are about being honest with yourself concerning who they were given to [in a manner of correct exegesis]?
After you have meditated on that a while, I would like to talk to you about the great difficulty in securing those promises, the heavy responsibilities, and the curses that go along with those promises. All these things are included with the promises, and cannot be disregarded...unless of course, your a Christian!
Like my new fancy font? I wish I could find where to make it my default font setting. Much easier to read on a purple background isn't it? [/size] |
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Post by alon on Sept 12, 2013 9:46:14 GMT -8
You raise some very interesting points; especially just before Yom Kippur. I'll give a quick answer here, just to get feedback if you want. But really, I think these are some good points for "Christian" introspection. So I'll answer again after also. True, the Jewish people only existed as a nation after Sinai. You could also make a case for after Avraham, since that is where God started to build the nation proper. then gentiles could only have the promises by... Absolutely! Again, I would agree. Quick answer, no- that is one reason for my turning to Messianism and away from mainstream Christianity. However, this is one question I really should consider over Yom Kippur, as you suggest ... Dietrich Bonheoffer called that "cheap grace," although he was talking more of Christians not even living up to their responsibilities as THEIR OWN religion stipulated! It is one of the things we as Messianics realize, though we don't always understand what it truly means. So looking forward to the Jewish viewpoint. Understand we may not agree point by point with modern Rabbinical Judaism, but still should be an interesting comparison. I may also have to research some because this is an area where I am still learning. As you point out, I didn't get a lot of this in Mainstream Christianity. [/color][/font][/size][/quote]LROL! Don't even ask me about computers! I'm having enough trouble with this Messianic learnin' stuff- computers belong to a realm somewhere beyond the Talmud! I even managed to mess up your font ... I thought maybe I'd see how the Karites do things and maybe learn from them. But they apparently have their own rituals and customs, and I'd probably just get even more confused. Can I ask what branch of Judaism you ascribe to, just so I can get a better idea where your point of view comes from? You probably already know, but I was raised Southern Baptist. I still attend an Assembly of God church on Sundays, although I do keep Shabbat as best I can (my wife is still absolutely opposed to anything I do that resembles Judaism). I attend classes with a Messianic Synagogue (Beit Avenu) on Wednesday nights, as they come into a town closer to me then to teach. Not really a congregation, there are only about 6 of us who regularly attend, and we don't meet on Shabbat as many of the others go to Wenatchee for service then. I hope your High Holy Days are going well, and may you be richly blessed in the coming year. Shalom. Dan C [/quote] |
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Post by alon on Sept 12, 2013 10:42:15 GMT -8
Something else to contemplate:
If you do not love the truth, you cannot be saved. “Strong delusion”- He turns you over to your own deception.
Now, considering all the sects of Judaism and all the denominations of Christianity (and discounting all the cults out of hand), this is kind of disturbing. It means a lot of people who think they are "saved" are really missing the mark. Someone, after all, has to be wrong! Exactly how far off the mark can we be and still be in His love?
And love is not unconditional. Time and again God sets conditions:
God can leave you if you choose to live outside His instructions.
Yeshua even put qualifications on our love for Him
Dan C
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Lishmah, What about this verse? 
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