Angel
Junior Member
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
Posts: 50
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Post by Angel on May 23, 2004 20:20:52 GMT -8
I am wondering if there is a concensus among Messianic fellowship groups as to the purpose & usage of the gifts (ie. speaking in tongues, gifts of prophecy, laying on of hands for healing, diverse tongues & interpretation of tongues, etc) of the Ruach haKodesh...
I do not have an opportunity to attend Messianic fellowship so am wondering if these gifts are thought of in a divisional way as they are in most protestant churches (ie. some churches believe the gifts were for early NT churches, some believe and make use of the gifts in today's church...)
Just curious... Thanks!!
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 23, 2004 21:49:19 GMT -8
Shalom Psalm122.6, The problem is that many in Messianic Judaism previously came from other sects of Christianity before they learned the truth. Many times some of the theology taggs along. So, I would say in regards to some of these issues in Messianic Judaism, or  based faith in Yeshua...it is almost as diverse as the Christian world. I would say from my personal experience, most Messianic believers do believe in spiritual gifts through the Ruach HaKodesh, and that this has always been available to believers as Adonai wills. I would be happy to discuss this further if you would like. B'Shem Yeshua, Reuel |
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Post by kwbush on Jun 1, 2004 14:47:34 GMT -8
am wondering if there is a concensus among Messianic fellowship groups as to the purpose & usage of the gifts (ie. speaking in tongues, gifts of prophecy, laying on of hands for healing, diverse tongues & interpretation of tongues, etc) of the Ruach haKodesh...
I do not have an opportunity to attend Messianic fellowship so am wondering if these gifts are thought of in a divisional way as they are in most protestant churches (ie. some churches believe the gifts were for early NT churches, some believe and make use of the gifts in today's church...)
Just curious... Thanks!!
Hummmmmmm... excellent question Psalm 122: 6
I don't recall in scripture where Yeshua cancelled the gifts of the Ruach or taught that they were for the first century church only... No, the gifts of the Ruach ARE for today and YOU and ME as believers.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 1, 2004 15:59:05 GMT -8
Amen Kwbush,
Here is a series of e-mails that I have recently recieved from a brother in Messiah whom I don't think will mind me sharing this. His name is Doug...
05-28-04
And, later he e-mailed me again...
05-31-04
As G'd is still on throne...miracles still happen.
Shalom b'Shem Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 16, 2004 2:12:49 GMT -8
Shalom all,
well, my study on the gift of tongues showed it to be languages not the gibberish that many christians speak when they say they are being filled with the spirit. I feel they are asking for trouble by wanting to be overcome by a spirit, it is just like channeling and is foolish at best. If YHWH sends you to preach and needs the people of different languages to understand you as was the case in the accounts of the scriptures:
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Many people out of pride may want to say they have these gifts or have fantastic stories so they can feel they are chosen by YHWH, but like any other elitist theology it is based on pride. It would be of fear and trembling I think if he used these people not of boasting, but I think it is not commonplace if at all that he is using these now. mabye when the two witnesses come back, but for now I'm pretty sceptical, it seems there is a big move by the evangelical churches with tongues and signs and miracles, they have so many stories, but I think it is due to the lack of substance like what you get out of his law that makes these churches need some wonderful stories to get people excited in believing. Well that's my view.
Shalom
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 16, 2004 10:41:36 GMT -8
Agree with most of your points, but objectively speaking...what do yo think of the following passages in regards to your statement above?...
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto G'd: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
1 Corinthians 14:2
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
1Corinthians 13:1
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by el Gusano on Jun 17, 2004 17:33:44 GMT -8
The former is one of the sign-gifts, and as Loving Neighbor said, there is no such thing in Scripture as an unknown tongue. The sign-gift of speaking in tongues were real languages for the unbelieving so they could understand.
I don't think the sign-gifts are for today, but if they exist, tongues are not to be used when no one is present to interpret (the person in whose language it's being spoken).
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 18, 2004 8:55:00 GMT -8
Shalom Curt,
You stated...
In regards to your statement above, can you please explain your view on the following passages that seem to indicate the opposite.
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto G'd: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
1 Corinthians 14:2
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
1Corinthians 13:1
Shalom chaver,
Reuel
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Post by el Gusano on Jun 18, 2004 9:25:36 GMT -8
Actually, that was me, not Curt. You are correct on the 1 Corinthians 14:2. (I was not paying close enough attention, my apologies.)
1 Corinthians 14:2 uses the singular form of tongue, which is used differently from the plural. The plural is used for the sign-gift, the singular is not. The singular is used as a reference to a personal (spiritual) language with God (but is not for an outward sign). It can also be used for a specific language and even a reference for oratory skill. In this case, it is obviously the first of the three.
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Angel
Junior Member
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
Posts: 50
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Post by Angel on Jun 19, 2004 2:02:06 GMT -8
This is the way I was taught (and believe) about the two "types" of the gifts of tongue(s)... VERTICAL -- me speaking to G-d: - 1Cor 14:2 "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."
- 1Cor 14:4 "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself;"
- Romans 8:26 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"
For me, I believe this is MY prayer language that my spirit uses to "speak to G-d"... ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~HORIZONTAL -- G-d speaking to "us":- 1Cor 14:5: "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying."
- 1Cor 14:26 "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God"
- 1Cor 14:8 "For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."
The "us" I refer to above is: a group of believers & unbelievers gathered together; for the purpose of edification of the church... I know this is yet another topic that divides the church (oh  how that must hurt our loving Abba) but these gifts have truly been a blessing in my life and have helped me grow spiritually -- which is always the desire of my heart: to be closer to Him & live according to His will! Shalom! OOPS!!! Red text above is correct!  I cannot believe that after all of my careful review and previews of my comments that I mixed up the "VERTICAL" and "HORIZONTAL" terms! Maybe I should have used "portrait" and "landscape"  Sorry for any confusion this may have caused! |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 19, 2004 13:37:43 GMT -8
Shalom El Gusano, Sorry for mistaking Curt for you, and sorry Curt for mistaking El Gusano for you. El Gusano, I see what you are saying...that there is a spritual unkown language but it is personal, and the "sign language" is what is meant to be public. Psalm122.6, I agree that this subject divides Elohim's congregation...but it shouldn't. In the end Sha'ul (Paul) says not to forbid speaking in tongues, and gives clear guidelines on how this is be done in a peaceful, and orderly manner. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by kwbush on Jun 21, 2004 17:22:13 GMT -8
LovingNeighbor said: "Shalom all, well, my study on the gift of tongues showed it to be languages not the gibberish that many christians speak when they say they are being filled with the spirit. " It simply breaks my heart when I hear or read statements like the preceeding one... Over 15 years ago I recieved the GIFT of tongues and used that GIFT often in the course of private worship, at corporate prayer meetings where EVERYONE was using it and in private prayer meetings where I knew all present had that GIFT and was also using it. I have to exercise tremendous restraint not to "go off" on a fellow believer who would call a GIFT of G-d "gibberish"! Over the years I've encountered several people who share LovingNeighbor's point of view and found these people to be relatively new believers or were just ignorant of the GIFT... or just had BAD teaching on the subject... (ya know it's going around these days just as Yeshua said it would!) Anyhow I hold no ill feelings toward LovingNeighbor, heck, I don't know him/her... but I pray that he/she would be quicker to hear, slower to speak on subjects that he/she appears to be less than knowledgeable of. keith |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 21, 2004 22:18:56 GMT -8
Welcome back Kwbush,
We all have subjects that we are especially passionate about. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in the gift of tongues, and do believe that I have excerised them in the past in my walk with Adonai. But, instead of becoming offended, why not pray for each other, have compassion for each other, and discuss the scriptures in question in a peaceble manner? I would say that this gift does have specific guidelines in which it is to be used, and to be edifying. When a whole group of people is speaking in tongues, this is not only in violation of the scriptures, but is not edifying seeing that nobody understands, and general chaos is ensuing...
"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to G'd. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For G'd is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
- 1 Corinthians 14:27-33
All the gifts of G'd are to bear fruit, and are to be edifying. If someone claims to have a gift, yet it does not bear fruit, nor is it edifying in the congregation of Israel...it is not of G'd. I would also say that if someone has a gift and it does not bring glory to G'd, than the gift has either been used illegitimately, or the didn't have a gift in the first place. Many people just want to feel special, and want to glorify themselves when they claim they have one of the gifts. I am not claiming that this is the case with anyone on the forums here. But, Yeshua said we shall know them by their fruit.
Shalom chaverim,
Reuel
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Angel
Junior Member
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
Posts: 50
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Post by Angel on Jun 22, 2004 2:34:15 GMT -8
When a whole group of people is speaking in tongues, this is not only in violation of the scriptures, but is not edifying seeing that nobody understands, and general chaos is ensuing... Reuel, when you participate in congregational worship, do you quietly speak words of worship to G-d, while others are singing? Or, while praying as a group, do you speak the same words of prayer that everyone else does? I know that there are times when we speak a prayer in unison, as a group -- but I also know that there are times, during congregational worship, that we pray (not interceding-but worship), as a group but we each pray our own words of worship from our hearts... Well, that is when the "vertical conversation" (me talking with G-d) I talked about earlier kicks in, for me... there is edification, for me as a believer, and I view this as my prayer language -- a communication between my spirit and G-d's... I know that there is chaos in some churches -- where someone will shout out in a tongue while someone else is speaking, and I agree that a situation like that is in violation of the teachings of the use of the gifts... but, in our assembly, I've never experienced any chaos -- in fact, it is very peaceful and joyful, for we all worship the same Elohim, but in different ways... |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 22, 2004 11:47:15 GMT -8
Shalom Psalm 122.6,
What I am communicating is what Sha'ul warns about in regards too many speaking in tongues out loud. I am not saying that there is anything contrary in the scriptures in regards to someone doing this silently to themselves as this is exactly what the scriptures call for...
"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the congregation; and let him speak to himself, and to G'd."
- 1Corinthians 14:28
Shalom,
Reuel
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based faith in Yeshua...it is almost as diverse as the Christian world. I would say from my personal experience, most Messianic believers do believe in spiritual gifts through the Ruach HaKodesh, and that this has always been available to believers as Adonai wills. I would be happy to discuss this further if you would like.
I cannot believe that after all of my careful review and previews of my comments that I mixed up the "VERTICAL" and "HORIZONTAL" terms! Maybe I should have used "portrait" and "landscape" 
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused!
