Spiritual Gifts in Today's "Church"?

[Frank T. Clark]

I am a late comer to this thread bu I wanted to share my thoughts and understandings.

When I read 1 Corinthians 14 I sense a definite disapproval of private tongues. The negative comparison of private tongues to prophetic gifts coupled with the severe restrictions placed on the use of private tongues leads me to feel that they are disparaged.

In my personal experience I spent several months attending an Assembly of God church where the use of tongues was prevalent. I enjoyed immensely the vitality of the worship and I loved the people and the warmth of the congregation. I became quite involved with the church program and activities.

I observed the people, their dynamics and interactions closely. I knew many of the people well outside of the church. Some were relatives including the pastor. I acknowledge that this was only one church, I did not know personally everyone in the church and i certainly would not judge anyone.

My observation was that speaking in tongues was a badge of honour and pride to those who did it with no discernable spiritual effect to their lives outside of church. The pressure for all to "perform" was immense. The attempt to stimulate and simulate an extermely ecstatic experience became unnerving the longer I was there. Occasionally I would observe apparent competition as to who would be the loudest and most vociferous. The apparent vying for attention and recognition became distasteful.

Before that experience I had no particular experience or opinon at all of glossalalia. I was actually excited at first. My opinion became very set after that and it was quite negative. It is only my opinion based on my experience and observation. I would never criticize anyone for believing or participating. I don't see the Holy Spirit at work.

[kwbush]

Message

Reuel said:
"We all have subjects that we are especially passionate about. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in the gift of tongues, and do believe that I have excerised them in the past in my walk with Adonai. But, instead of becoming offended, why not pray for each other, have compassion for each other, and discuss the scriptures in question in a peaceble manner?"

Shalom Reuel,

Passion just begins to describe the way I feel about anything that I receive from HaShem... Whether anyone believes in ANY gift of the Ruach is inconsequential to me, the truth is that these gifts are still being given and used by faithful followers of Messiah...

1Cr 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Cr 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order

We are to desire the GIFTS of the Ruach even desiring the greater GIFTS such as prophecy, healing, etc...

1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Would HaShem exhort His children to desire something He wasn't going to provide? May it NEVER be!

I believe that the GIFTS of the Ruach ARE for today and SHOULD, no MUST, be operating in the Church!!!!!!!!

For far too long there has been false teaching on the GIFTS and the power that is the believers ie:

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Does HaShem say I MAY give it to you? Or does scripture state PLAINLY "it SHALL be given you"!

Sorry, I'm getting off the original subject...

PLEASE brothers and sisters pray to receive the GIFTS of the Ruach, Rav Shaul teaches...

1Cr 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Cr 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Cr 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.
1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.
1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.
1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.



Shalom...
keith

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

the truth is that these gifts are still being given and used by faithful followers of Messiah...

Amen

We are to desire the GIFTS of the Ruach even desiring the greater GIFTS such as prophecy, healing, etc...

Amen

I believe that the GIFTS of the Ruach ARE for today and SHOULD, no MUST, be operating in the Church!!!!!!!!

Amen

PLEASE brothers and sisters pray to receive the GIFTS of the Ruach, Rav Shaul teaches...

Amen, and amen. I have often prayed this, and I encourage my brothers to do so as well.

Shalom B'Shem Yeshua,

Reuel

[LovingNeighbor]

Shalom all,
Hey Kieth, sorry if you are offended by my understanding of the scriptures, but to assume I am unlearned because I don't believe as you is not wise. I am more than willing to study scriptures on the subject with anyone, but they may be hard pressed to show me in scriptures an example of gibberish, vs. the one definition of speaking in tongues that we have in scripture.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Other Languages spoken of here

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

We know this because it is referenced here they were from different nations and spoke different languages

Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

And here we see the definition of speaking in tongues

Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

The gift was that though they spoke in their language(not a foriegn bunch of noises) everyone else heard them in thier own native tongue.

Next Reuel lets look at the context of the chapter with the verses you asked about on unknown tongues

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Here the word Unknown and in the other verses about unknown tongues, the word unknown is never used but in italics as added so lets take it out and work with the real text which continues to talk about diferrent languages. Lets follow the context.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

He that speaketh in a tongue(diferent language) edifieth himself( because only he knows what he was saying unless he has an interpreter as discussed later. This may refer to Jews saying prayers in hebrew when non hebrew speaking people were there, We'll see this is the topic of this whole chapter.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Most people they were speaking to were mixed multitudes and many may not have understood the prayers or teachings of some that spoke hebrew.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

again he says hear if a trumpet make a sound not understood what good is it. This is the opposite of teaching people to babble and saying that is speaking in tongues. No doubt this was for the scholars who were studying and the problem of also the jewish prayers and such that were being said at the holy days that many could not learn if they did not understand.

continued in next thread

[LovingNeighbor]

1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

Hear he says no one language is superior to another, again repeating what this issue is about.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Again talking about the uselessness of speaking things in languages people can't understand and again contradicting the teaching that the spirit makes one speak gibberish.

1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Here it is just tongue not unknown tongue, the word unknown was added. and he says if you are going to speak in a different language in a group of people have an interpreter so everyone can get the message.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Here we see it is dealing with prayers, most likely hebrew blessings.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Here we see it is about them praying in a language that someone else may not understand so like in a wine blessing or the shma if someone doesn't speak hebrew how can they say amen when they don't know what you just said unless you also follow up in their language.

1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

in your mind you know what you just said, but some in the congragation don't, just as we say Yahushuah(Jesus) so people understand who we're talking about otherwise they don't have a clue, but you think your giving him his proper glory.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

He spoke many languages

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Again here the word unknown is not in the text it was added, mabye by a pentecostal. and he backs it up by saying that although he knows many languages he wants to make sure everyone hears the message not that he just performs it in hebrew because he was a jew trying to preach to other nations.

1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

here he states he will preach his message to people other than hebrews, but even speaking to them in their language they won't want to hear them.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

here the original gift of tongue was a sign and as in acts 2:7 the unbelievers were amazed, but he would rather you had the gift of prophesying because that was used to guide his followers and as it came truth that was their sign they were on the right track.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

If everyone spoke with diferent languages they couldn't understand and would think they were crazy.

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

If they don't speak in different languages and all foretell the same events this convinces the new believer of the truth in what is being said.

1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Here he wants this prayers and psalms done probably in hebrew, but as long as someone interprets for those non jews there.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Here the person leading doesn't just go up and start saying things in aramaic or something if no one can interpret he says it to himself in his own language.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Here he finalizes this, now if a person wants to believe that this verse is about convulsing and speaking gibberish, i think they missed the whole context that it was not to be about even using a language if everyone didn't understand because he wanted everyone who came to get to hear the message. What makes more sense, that or that we just start babbling and say we're getting taken over by a spirit. See the problem is I don't play with ouigy boards and that is what that is doing is wanting to become possesed with a spirit. Well in Yahushuah's time he was casting out spirits and if you invite them they will come and not leave. That is very foolish. This is a clear case of how satan has twisted the scriptures of something common sense to something demonic.

Shalom

[Frank T. Clark]

Loving Neighbour, your words are a great encouragement to me in my current situation as well as showing a great depth of understanding.

I have been drawn closer to Judaism by my understanding of the truth in scripture contrary to what I have been taught in a Christian church. Therefore I have taken an interest in the Hebrew behind the English scriptures and have learned a lot.

However on the occasion of joining this forum I have encountered a large amount of conversational Hebrew which is far beyond my understanding. This was causing me some heart searching because I didn't like it.

It reminded me of issues I encountered when I learned a limited Spanish vocabulary and became involved in a lot of bilingual situations. Now, my son (native English) and his wife (native Spanish) are completely bilingual. I learned very hard lessons about the value of a piece of wisdom I once learned. It is not polite to speak extensively in a language unknown to a listener in a conversational group.

I accept completely that conversational Hebrew is valid in this forum. I will end up being familiar with it and probably even develop an enjoyment of it. However, I did encounter something that troubled me.

When I mentioned my feelings in a private email to a friend (Jewish) I received an unexpected outpouring which said that Hebrew is an important language, it is the language of Eden, it is the language of heaven, it was the language the Messiah spoke, and several other strong statements. It was suggested that anti-semitism was behind my feelings and that i should search my heart because maybe i was prejudiced.

I was shocked and flabbergasted.

[LovingNeighbor]

Shalom,

Frank, I think you encountered the same thing new believers were encountering when coming to these churces with hebrew people, and as Paul was setting up these churches these were some of the problems they were having. does that make sense or is it more likely that he had to teach the new churches how to properly channel spirits. Hmm... In the context of his life, I think we know the answer. But This is what paul was saying that it's great if you know the prayers and hymns in the original languages but if your goal is to share the message in the prayers and psalms then you better speak it in languages that everyone can understand or have interpreters at least otherwise if no one speaks that language your teaching, only Elohim understands you. Until we each study and make dicisions and pray for wisdom, how can we disprove the false teachings that have been sewn with the good seed. We all must study these issues for ourselves. I am sorry if some are offended, but just like Christmas if everyone is doing it and you don't want to give it up, don't be mad at me If i don't beleive it is scriptural.

I don't try and put my stamp of truth on it, I am not your teacher, I am just sharing what I see and as it says I am supposed to have an aswer when asked about why I beleive something. What a powerful concept pushing people to do individual study before beleiving the traditions of men.
Shalom
Shalom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Frank,

Your frustration is totally understandable. I think this is just a great opportunity for you to learn a little Hebrew. I have a section of the forum dedicated to this under Learning Hebrew in which new members on this board can read some of the common Hebrew sayings, and become familiar with them. I know this may take some time, but I would recommend everytime that you see some Hebrew phrase that you don't understand, please go to the section under learning Hebrew, and check to see what the statement means. Or, if it is not there, please ask what the particular phrase, or word means on that part of the forum, and we will promptly reply as to the meaning. If we have a heart for the Jewish people it would serve us well to become more familiar with them in this regard.

In regards to this conversation (spiritual gifts/speaking in tongues), and many others like it in which we become passionate about a subject, let us keep in mind the following scripture passages especially when it comes to a forum situation like this...

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith"
- Galations 5:22

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
- Galations 6:1

We want to be manifesting these fruits, or our conversations will be pointless in G-d's eyes. I still have far to go in this area as well, but I would like to see all of us work a little harder to accomplish this.

Shalom chaverim (Peace friends),

Reuel

[yeshua's homeboy]

There are a lot of interesting points on this topic so far. I will be nice when were all gathered with our Messiah and we have all are questions answered. Hear is my take on the topic.
I do believe in gifts and think that there use is practical today, however it burdens me to see people use them foolishly. Before finding a Messianic fellowship I use to attend an evangelical church. The one thing that would bother me is the fact that often people would feel the need to speak in an unknown tong out loud. 1Cor explains that it would be better to speak a few words that would edify others than thousands in an unknown tong.

1Corinthians

14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
14:20
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in the gift of tongs and have excised them in my walk with the Adoni, but I feel people treat this as more important than other gifts or G-dly traits. That’s not Sha'uls attitude. There is a place and a time. On the flip side is a testimony of a friend of mine.

I use to know this girl named Joanna. Joanna was a Baptist who did not believe in the gifts of the spirit today especially speaking in an unknown tong. Joanna went on a mission trip with a well know youth mission ministry. She was roomed with many others girls some from different countries. There was a girl who roomed with Joanna who was not from the US and did not speak a word of English. One night this girl was praying and my friend Joanna could all of a sudden understand what the girl was saying. This girl was praising Adoni in English even though she did not know how to speak a word of English. This is I believe one example where we do see the benefit of speaking in tongs.

[The 614th Mitzvot]

I agree with the "Homeboy". I feel that some people have a habit of just babbling so they can look highly spiritual. I also feel that there are some people who will never speak in tongues because G-d has no reason for them to do so; it won't help anything.

[inawe]

" I feel that some people have a habit of just babbling so they can look highly spiritual. "

Question : Is the above an example of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"?


fascinating topic, inawe

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Inawe,

Good question. Although, I don't think it would be blaspheming the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Sp.) as this involves attributing the works of The Spirit to HaSatan (The Enemy) as found in Mark 3:29-30. But, when people are babbling, and it is not from Ruach HaKodesh, than I would say that they are giving occassion for the heathen to blaspheme the name of G'd, and/or they are being moved by another spirit which is not of G'd. Both are sins as one involves the breaking of the third commandment, and the other involves sorcery.

B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach,
(In the name of Yeshua The Messiah)

Reuel

[inawe]

May our Father bless you, Reuel...you've just made very clear the meaning of something I had always wondered about...the attributing something of G-d to the advisary as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKodesh...did I spell that correctly?). Also, many thanks for the lesson in the Hebrew language (B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach, and the english translation). I'm doing my best to memorize the Hebrew I'm seeing used. Seems like a heavy task, at first, but I'm sure it will fall into place the more I use it.

...as for the topic of "speaking in tounges", I don't see where it's my place to judge anyone else in their beliefs and practices. The scriptures are clear on that...even to one such as I. As for myself, should the Father wish me to speak in tounges, I'm quite sure that He will make it clear to me. I need no such outward sign to show others (and even myself) that the Spirit of G-d is in me. I believe in the assuance He gave us...blessed assurance...

Thank you again for the clarification.

B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach,

inawe

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

May our Father bless you, Reuel...you've just made very clear the meaning of something I had always wondered about...the attributing something of G-d to the advisary as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKodesh...did I spell that correctly?).

My pleasure to assist. And, yes you spelled the tranliteration of the Holy Spirit in Hebrew correctly.

Also, many thanks for the lesson in the Hebrew language (B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach, and the english translation). I'm doing my best to memorize the Hebrew I'm seeing used.

Also my pleasure, and it seems that you are picking up quickly.

...as for the topic of "speaking in tounges", I don't see where it's my place to judge anyone else in their beliefs and practices. The scriptures are clear on that...even to one such as I. As for myself, should the Father wish me to speak in tounges, I'm quite sure that He will make it clear to me.

I believe that speaking in tongues is a valid gift from the Father, but out of love for my fellow brethren I would also warn people from many of the deceptions that are associated with it.

Yom tov b'Yeshua HaMashiach,
(Have a good day in Yeshua The Messiah),

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Yes I would agree, many are around who will pervert these things for their own use. I have known people who preached sermons and acted is so spiritual a manner to find that they are frauds. No one believed those who said so, I think we should not truly argue on this point because scripture shows us that we cannot rely on anything once it falls into our lap. "Test all things to see if they are from heaven."