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Post by mystic on Mar 14, 2019 11:52:58 GMT -8
To whom does this apply, anyone who believes in the  or only Jews? Genesis 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” |
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Post by alon on Mar 15, 2019 22:31:57 GMT -8
To whom does this apply, anyone who believes in the or only Jews? Genesis 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” When God said that, there were no Jews. However many point out God said this to Avraham and his descendants. Even if this were true, there are 2 parts to this blessing: "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;" and "And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” "All the families of the earth" sounds like Jews and Gentiles. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Mar 16, 2019 4:01:06 GMT -8
yes, that sounds about right to me, thanks.
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Post by rakovsky on May 10, 2019 12:39:11 GMT -8
To whom does this apply, anyone who believes in the or only Jews? Genesis 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” When God said that, there were no Jews. However many point out God said this to Avraham and his descendants. Even if this were true, there are 2 parts to this blessing: "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;" and "And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” "All the families of the earth" sounds like Jews and Gentiles. Dan C Great points by you, Dan, which are often missed when the verse is used polemically and politcally. |
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Post by jimmie on May 13, 2019 9:46:45 GMT -8
[]The 613 Mitzvoth are commonly misunderstood to be Law. What they are is a Rabbinical Judaic interpretation of . Many in MJ, myself included do not follow that list because we do not just copy Judaism, and we do not feel bound by the precepts of Rabbinical Judaism. We are however bound by . If God said it, we do it to the best of our abilities. I'd recommend starting with Acts 15: Dan C The 613 are directly from the first five books of the Bible. There are 248 positive commandments and 365 Negative commandments. |
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Post by alon on May 13, 2019 10:09:18 GMT -8
The 613 are directly from the first five books of the Bible. There are 248 positive commandments and 365 Negative commandments. I have a book of the 613 mitzvoth. It lists every one of them, and gives the scriptural reference for each. Going through it, you begin to notice the exact same parts of a verse keep showing up. The Rabbis extrapolate several commandments from just a part of a commandment in . So no, they are not directly from . They are Rabbinical extrapolations from verses in . Recall I am a proponent of understanding how they come to each interpolation and doing or not depending on its own merits. But I am not bound by Rabbinic tradition and interpolations. If I were, I'd be Orthodox instead of Messianic. Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on May 13, 2019 13:47:28 GMT -8
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Post by alon on May 13, 2019 14:34:17 GMT -8
From the site you referenced: That is because as I said, some individual phrases within a verse can have multiple commandments extrapolated from them. And because if you were to just go to those verses and count them, you'll come up with far fewer than 613. And there are other anomallies as well. Look at: Exodus 12:48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he kshall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
This clearly just says you must be circumcised to eat of the Passover. Yet note they get 2 separate commandments from this. Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am fa jealous God, gvisiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,The above is just part of a commandment not to worship idols, yet from this one verse they get 2 commandments. And many of these are repeated in : Exodus 13:13 Every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every ffirstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.
Exodus 34:19-20 The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
Some changed too. Originally they could make an altar anywhere and worship the Lord. Then it was wherever the Mishkan was. And finally there was only the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Those are all taken from that website. And as I say, they are representative of many others. So in actuality there are not 613 separate commandments. And as I said, many of those 613 are just Rabbinic interpretations (which the site doesn't give). Honestly, for a person new to MJ I'd suggest going through a few cycles of readings and make sure you are doing what it says. Then get a book (there are several which list and describe the mitzvoth) and go through and comply with any that make sense or you find value in. Or if part of a congregation, follow their halacha. And by the way, that is a Christian site. Since they only list verses, and they don't sort by what is repeated or o longer applicable, they had to do some rearranging to get to 613. Not understanding where those came from in the 1st place, they assumed 613 was the right number and forced their interpretation to fit. It's a rule worth remembering: Christians are silly. They try so hard sometimes, and still they get it wrong. Dan  C |
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Post by garrett on May 14, 2019 1:16:02 GMT -8
As a side note, I've noticed that christians keep some of the laws whether they can help it or not...such as not having relations with family and in-laws, not lying, no same sex relations, no bestiality, honoring parents, not coveting a man's wife, etc., etc. That's an awful lot of cherry picking to no longer being "under the Law."
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Post by rakovsky on May 14, 2019 23:15:25 GMT -8
As a side note, I've noticed that christians keep some of the laws In the Orthodox Church's rules, a person is supposed to keep the Noahide food laws, like against blood foods. This is reflected in Acts in the Council of Jerusalem. So just as Jews aren't supposed to eat Polish blood sausage ("kiszka"), neither are Orthodox. |
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Post by alon on May 15, 2019 2:35:47 GMT -8
As a side note, I've noticed that christians keep some of the laws In the Orthodox Church's rules, a person is supposed to keep the Noahide food laws, like against blood foods. This is reflected in Acts in the Council of Jerusalem. So just as Jews aren't supposed to eat Polish blood sausage ("kiszka"), neither are Orthodox. The Seven Noachide Laws (according to the Jewish Virtual Library): Do Not Deny God Do Not Blaspheme God Do Not Murder Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships. Do Not Steal Do Not Eat of a Live Animal Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience These are enumerated in the Talmud. However the dietary laws are all found in . I'm just curious what specific biblical laws the Orthodox Chrurch follows? Dan C |
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Post by rakovsky on May 15, 2019 7:39:28 GMT -8
You are right that those are the Noahide Laws. I was going by the theory that the food rules from the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 were based on the Noahide Laws. (See eg. the Wikipedia article on Seven Noahide Laws). In that case, based on the Noahide Law on reverence toward God and against eating flesh from a live animal, as well as the Biblical concept that "the life is in the blood", the Council banned food polluted by idols, as well as blood foods and food from strangled animals, which due to the killing method retain their blood.
For more, see the blog article: Stump the Priest: The Council of Jerusalem on the Blood of Animals , Fr. John Whiteford's Commentary and Reflections, Wednesday, July 16, 2014 He writes: <<Not only is there nothing in Scripture that would suggest that "these necessary things" have been set aside, but in fact there are several Ecumenical Canons that reaffirm them.>> He then writes more, noting that in addition to this, "Canon 63 of the Holy Apostles" (which is often considered not actually to have been written by the apostles) also bans eating meat from an animal that is killed by a wild animal or that dies a natural death.
I think that there are alot of canons that aren't given alot of strong observance anymore in Orthodoxy, based on the principle of Ekonomia, and I would guess that Canon 63 against eating animals that died naturally is one. But I've seen the one in Acts 15 come up before in discussions and it's respected because it's for the NT Church in the Bible.
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Post by alon on May 15, 2019 15:53:50 GMT -8
... I think that there are alot of canons that aren't given alot of strong observance anymore in Orthodoxy, based on the principle of Ekonomia, and I would guess that Canon 63 against eating animals that died naturally is one. But I've seen the one in Acts 15 come up before in discussions and it's respected because it's for the NT Church in the Bible. The underlined part, verse 21 is always left out in church doctrine. That was not meant for any non-existant Christian churches. Nor was it a definitive list (at least the Orthodox seem to be on board with that). Those four thins were a starting place for Gentiles being converted to Nazarene Judaism. The reference to Moses is a clear reference to . And every Shabbat there is a reading, This was, and still exists in synagogues today, a physical seat where the Rabbi sat to teach . The readings are from a schedule such that every year every synagogue goes through from start to end. The idea being expressed here is that the proselyte start immediately with those four things, then he would learn the rest as he sat before the Moses Seat each week, listening to instruction. In this way a proselyte would eventually become fully observant. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 15, 2019 17:25:55 GMT -8
As a side note, I've noticed that christians keep some of the laws whether they can help it or not...such as not having relations with family and in-laws, not lying, no same sex relations, no bestiality, honoring parents, not coveting a man's wife, etc., etc. That's an awful lot of cherry picking to no longer being "under the Law." I think these are expectations in many religions because G-d made us with a conscience, and there's just a basic understanding within most humans of right and wrong. So I'm not sure they're even cherry picking. I don't think most Christians really have learned even enough regard for to be picking out what they want to keep and don't relating to it. Yet, many have no qualms about including other pagan and new age practices or ideas. I think that confusion is likely furthered because they don't have even a basic regard for . It's scary how much new age and far east religious lingo, methods, and outlooks are accepted, practiced, and sometimes even seeping into Christian teachings. I don't think that would happen as much if they did generally regard the enough to even cherry pick. There's too much G-d has to say against mixing with such things. It's just kind of telling that they turn they're back on but then can allow pagan and new age methods and ways when they creep in. |
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liora
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Post by liora on Aug 18, 2019 17:43:19 GMT -8
As a side note, I've noticed that christians keep some of the laws whether they can help it or not...such as not having relations with family and in-laws, not lying, no same sex relations, no bestiality, honoring parents, not coveting a man's wife, etc., etc. That's an awful lot of cherry picking to no longer being "under the Law." I think these are expectations in many religions because G-d made us with a conscience, and there's just a basic understanding within most humans of right and wrong. So I'm not sure they're even cherry picking. I don't think most Christians really have learned even enough regard for to be picking out what they want to keep and don't relating to it. Yet, many have no qualms about including other pagan and new age practices or ideas. I think that confusion is likely furthered because they don't have even a basic regard for . My experience has been that Christians choose which of the they wish to find applicable. Most of the instances of sexual immorality that I've read about or seen in Christianity, would scare them fully, if they actually read the and the Prophets. For some reason, they think that because Yeshua freed them from the law of sin and death, this too means that has been abolished. It used to be that XY-XY/XX-XX relations were forbidden but that, too, has changed in many camps.It's scary how much new age and far east religious lingo, methods, and outlooks are accepted, practiced, and sometimes even seeping into Christian teachings. I don't think that would happen as much if they did generally regard the enough to even cherry pick. There's too much G-d has to say against mixing with such things. It's just kind of telling that they turn they're back on but then can allow pagan and new age methods and ways when they creep in. I had the elder's wife at my previous synagogue in NY tell me that we are allowed to do Yoga and she told some pre-teens that they should read the book, The Shack, if they wanted to know more about G-D. We I asked him about it, he told me that "frankly, I don't see why this is such a big deal for you". To which I answered, "that's not the question. The question is why you don't see this as a big deal." No problem with Christian holidays, either, that violate scripture for him or the rabbi.
I believe that those who do not know what portion of applies to them is to get a separate Bible and step through the portion each week - marking those commandment that pertain to them, personally. No one is responsible for all of the the supposed 613 commandments. Some are for men, some for Cohens, some for farmers, some for unmarried women and some for married women, etc.When I die I will stand before my Judge all alone. I do not trust anyone with my Salvation - it doesn't matter how nice they are nor the amount of letters behind their name. My responsibility is to learn what a sound Bible translation is, read it, research the cultural norms of that time, and apply the information to my life. No rabbi or pastor will stand with me. What we read now cannot have meant something different to the original hearers/readers of scripture but that is the norm in churches.
Yeshua said that many would come saying that He is the Messiah and deceive many. That should sober up anyone who is looking for some authority to direct them to Truth. The function of the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit) is to teach His followers. I always remind myself of that old saying ... the best of men is a man at best. If you love the Truth, no matter the consequences of obtaining and following it, Yeshua will make sure that you have questions answered and are led on the straight and narrow path. We can always trust 'the Judge of all the earth to do what is right'.
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or only Jews?
