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Post by mystic on Jan 24, 2019 4:22:17 GMT -8
So I know this topic is neverending guys but every time I read the OT it's like I come across something I haven't noticed before. Most Orthodox Jews I have spoken to pretty much says the  was meant for the children of Israel and Christians and Gentiles are not "grafted" into anything. So does that mean the 10 Commandments and every law written in the does not apply to Gentiles so gentiles should follow only what is written in the NT? If yes to the above question then what Doug Batchelor from AFTV pointed out might have some truth in it. He is Jewish but he said that Jesus never focused on the Gentiles. From what I am seeing it was God who chose Peter and Paul to be the light for the Gentiles which to me is suggesting the NT is more applicable to Gentiles? |
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Post by alon on Jan 24, 2019 9:41:18 GMT -8
So I know this topic is neverending guys but every time I read the OT it's like I come across something I haven't noticed before. Most Orthodox Jews I have spoken to pretty much says the was meant for the children of Israel and Christians and Gentiles are not "grafted" into anything. So does that mean the 10 Commandments and every law written in the does not apply to Gentiles so gentiles should follow only what is written in the NT? If yes to the above question then what Doug Batchelor from AFTV pointed out might have some truth in it. He is Jewish but he said that Jesus never focused on the Gentiles. From what I am seeing it was God who chose Peter and Paul to be the light for the Gentiles which to me is suggesting the NT is more applicable to Gentiles? Most Jews like the uniqueness of observance being for them alone. However nowhere does it say this in the entire Bible. It does say: Numbers 15:16 (ESV) One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”Without the Old Testament, especially , you cannot understand the New. It was the Jewish people, the nation of Israel who were to be a light to the Gentiles. This was always the case. And Gentiles such as Ruth were adopted in when they made the decision to join Israel and worship only the God of Israel. s are you if truly saved. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 25, 2019 3:54:54 GMT -8
Numbers 15:16 (ESV) One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”Dan C Those words in bold can be interpreted to mean only Gentiles living in Israel among the Jews? |
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Post by alon on Jan 25, 2019 4:12:17 GMT -8
Numbers 15:16 (ESV) One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”Dan C Those words in bold can be interpreted to mean only Gentiles living in Israel among the Jews? Yes, many who are determined that Gentiles should not be obedient do interpret it that way. However in light of other scripture this view is difficult to maintain. If as Paul said you are grafted in, adopted and made heirs to the promise, then you are effectively a Jew. So applies to you. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 25, 2019 5:16:04 GMT -8
Since you're trying to do the rabbinical commandments on that list very stringently, you're probably going to run into this more than others like me who stick more closely with the scriptural and don't do so much of the rabbinic. My guess is you'll upset Jewish people who think you're trying to "look" Jewish. Honestly, I can understand their pov because they don't understand that this is sincerely about G-d for us.
Anyway, here's the reason you're going to have to forget their issues with you....Yeshua is not accepted by them either so don't expect that you will be. It really is a part of your calling if you're called to this.
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Post by mystic on Jan 25, 2019 12:22:32 GMT -8
I am thinking the same thing now, since I am not Jewish then no need to follow their rules to the letter if God won't care whether I follow their rules or not.
i am thinking of going the 7th Day Adventist route with this, simply rest and not engage in regular work and every day secular activities, worship and not worry about using electricity, heating up food e.t.c.
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Post by alon on Jan 25, 2019 17:39:00 GMT -8
I am thinking the same thing now, since I am not Jewish then no need to follow their rules to the letter if God won't care whether I follow their rules or not. i am thinking of going the 7th Day Adventist route with this, simply rest and not engage in regular work and every day secular activities, worship and not worry about using electricity, heating up food e.t.c. The 613 Mitzvoth are commonly misunderstood to be Law. What they are is a Rabbinical Judaic interpretation of . Many in MJ, myself included do not follow that list because we do not just copy Judaism, and we do not feel bound by the precepts of Rabbinical Judaism. We are however bound by . If God said it, we do it to the best of our abilities. I'd recommend starting with Acts 15: Acts 15:20 (ESV) but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
You should already be doing these things, but make sure that you are. Then do as the next verse says: Acts 15:21 (ESV) For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
The reading every Sabbath in the synagogues is the weekly par'shah. What they were saying is those 4 things were a starting point, the minimum you needed to be doing to be admitted into fellowship. But after that you should learn more about the path with the weekly readings. Just starting out, you could even concentrate on a study in Deuteronomy. If it says it there, and if it applies to you, do it! But go slow, adding mitzvoth at your own pace. Then once you are comfortable with those things you can start looking at Jewish traditions. As long as they don't violate , you can add some of those if you like. However you are not obligated o do their traditions. The Adventists get an "E" for effort, but not a passing grade. They get more wrong than right, so I'd ignore them and go straight to the source. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 26, 2019 5:47:22 GMT -8
I think my main issue is using electricity. Since I use electricity for computer and TV to do bible studies, then what would be the difference using a microwave? One can argue that using a microwave is reheating food so technically cooking but it's no work to simply push a button. It's much more physical to be typing on a computer during bible studies.
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Post by mystic on Jan 26, 2019 7:28:36 GMT -8
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 26, 2019 8:22:13 GMT -8
We don't have to listen to the laws of the Mishneh as some, like this one, are against Torah.
The entire reason Israel was chosen by G-d was to be a light to the nations, meaning they are meant to draw the world to G-d. Yeshua accomplished and is accomplishing this while those you referenced are trying to push us away. We have to decide who we're going to listen to; them or Yeshua.
There is one G-d, the G-d of Israel; one Torah given by that G-d to one nation, the nation of Israel; one Way to keep that Torah literally and spiritually as there's no Temple and our hearts are evil, Messiah Yeshua and His Spirit; and one Kingdom coming defined by one law; Torah law. Now considering this, where does mainstream Judaism ultimately say we belong......not a good outlook for us. Also, what I'm saying is scriptural in contrast to rabbinic books that are not. G-d's nation is Israel. His Kingdom is under Torah rule so as a part of His people we then also identify with Israel and Torah.
We are part of Israel through Yeshua, who mainstream Judaism rejects. We're rejected by them, but not by Yeshua. They have all but cut their own selves off by rejecting Him, if not for the mercy they can participate in through this same Yeshua. A Jewish remnant will make its way back to G-d by accepting Yeshua at the very end of this age, but the vast majority will not. I say this so you can see how we identify with both Israel and Yeshua, how it is we're currently rejected, but also how serious their rejection of us is. Everyone who enters the Kingdom will identify with Yeshua, Israel, and the Torah that we are all commanded to keep as evident by the truth that the Kingdom is characterized by Torah Law going forth from Yeshua's throne on earth in Jerusalem. Ultimately, we're talking about identifying with G-d's Kingdom in what we do. Mainstream Judaism's refusal to aknowledge the nations call to keep Torah is in total conflict with G-d's plan that is a Torah obedient world.
We are children of G-d through Yeshua who thought enough of us to pour out His life, blood, and spirit for us. He didn't do that to keep us away from G-d and when you're brought near G-d, you're going to be brought to Israel. That's G-d's faithfulness to the nation and people He has chosen with whom to draw us in. Yeshua and the few Jewish people who follow Him are the only Jewish people living up to the call G-d has placed on Israel, and they're rejected by mainstream Judaism too. Therefore, you're not going to find your place in mainstream Judaism or the Mishna unless you reject Yeshua, and hopefully that's a completely out of the question alternative for you.
I think focusing in scripture and strengthening your identity in Yeshua to understand your right as a child of G-d redeemed and chosen by Him knowing He died for you, will help you more than looking to rabbinical Judaism for answers and identity at this point. Otherwise you're going to feel insecure in trying to keep Torah simply because you aren't going to be welcomed by mainstream Judaism or the rabbinic texts generally. They want to push you away, but Yeshua doesn't . He is your teacher, father, savior, Messiah, King, G-d, and validity as a member of Israel. Until Jewish people accept Him, they won't accept you, but He's the only One that we all need to be accepted by anyway. Evil actively tries to prevent the joining together of Yeshua and Israel and Torah. If you look from all religious and worldly angles you'll see this point blank and intentional separation. It's so point on yet subversive that it reeks of satanic interference and motivations. That's because it's G-d's plan for the world that all three meet and satan is indeed very much acting against it.
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Post by alon on Jan 26, 2019 9:31:49 GMT -8
I think my main issue is using electricity. Since I use electricity for computer and TV to do bible studies, then what would be the difference using a microwave? One can argue that using a microwave is reheating food so technically cooking but it's no work to simply push a button. It's much more physical to be typing on a computer during bible studies. Hmnn,, just came across this article: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13447/is-it-a-discouraged-or-an-unacceptable-practice-for-a-gentile-to-keep-the-sabbatwhich shows: The says "The Children of Israel shall observe the Sabbath, to make the Sabbath an eternal covenant for their generations. Between Me and the Children of Israel it is a sign forever that in a six-day period Hashem made the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed." (Exodus 31:16,17 Artscroll Translation). The Sabbath was given as a sign and covenant to Israel, a Gentile is forbidden to observe the Sabbath or to make a Sabbath of their own, a Halachah codified in the Mishneh , Laws of Kings 10:9. It is important to realize, however, that it is generally forbidden to instruct a non-Jew to perform anything on Shabbos that a Jew is prohibited to do by law (Orach Chaim 307:2). mystic, you keep looking to traditional Judaism for your halacha. But your quandary is that their halacha forbids you to keep Sbabbat or practice observance. So then you decide to just keep the Adventist version of Shabbat, which is scarcely observant. You still want a list of some kind. So when the Adventist thing doesn't work, back you go to Judaism for your answers. And what you find confuses you more. No wonder, because traditional Judaism not only can't agree, their list was made by some wild speculation and applying meanings never given in scripture. The prohibition on using electrical devices rests on two other prohibitions in Rabbinical Judaism (and they argue amongst themselves about which is the real reason). One is creating a spark. Nothing in says you can't create a spark. But that is equated with cooking and so is forbidden. And turning electrical devices on or off makes a spark (or so they say- not always). So you can readily see the stretch of imagination required. The second is creating heat, which is related back to not kindling (or making) a fire on Shabbat. However applying this to electrical devices is ridiculous. A fire kindled the day before could be maintained as long as the wood was gathered beforehand too. This created heat, yet is still allowed. That's one argument down the tubes. Another argument for allowing this is the electricity already existed, so it was like maintaining a fire. The problem is that electricity is continually produced and distributed, so it did not exist before Shabbat. So there goes that reasoning. And its use is continually metered, and Rabbinic Judaism forbids recording an agreement to buy. See how silly and complex these lists are? However we as Meshiachim are unbound by Rabbinic tradition which, more than observance seeks to control every aspect of our lives, making keeping Shabbat adherence to a grueling set of rules instead of a joyous day of rest. We can look to what is said, glean not only the specific prohibitions, but the principles involved and apply them to today and using electronoc devices. Genesis 2:3 (ESV) So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
The word translated "work" is מְלָאכָה melechah, and carries strong connotations of craftsmanship and "creative" work. Cooking on Shabbat is specifically prohibited in because it is creative work. So is making a fire. However maintaining a fire is just warming the home. It may also be used to keep previously cooked food warm. Using a microwave to cook food would be creating. Using it to warm food is sort of a gray area. Since the warming was not maintained, but started on Shabbat I don't. Some do because, as you say there is little work to pressing buttons. I don't know of any prohibition against Bible study, and I believe all sects of Judaism allow it (though they'd draw the line at study of the B'rith Chadashah, where we include it). And since we've established that using electricity by itself does not violate , using your computer to aid that study is not a problem. I can't sing and the only musical instrument I can play is the radio, so Bible study is really how I worship. And yes, I use the computer. I do not however do secular studies on Shabbat, either in books or electronic media. But it is the secular part that is wrong, not the use of the computer, and not studying per say. Like I said before, you can either drive yourself crazy trying to find the right list; and worse keep looking to either Judaism or Christianity for that list. Or you can learn to work from principles and make your own list based on reading and studying . And by the way, the only way you'd ever recognize what is right or wrong on a list is if you know and apply the principles anyhow. That is fast becoming a lost art, but it is one that will stand you in good stead in any endeavor in life if you understand and develop it. And again, this is a learning process. You'll make mistakes; expect them and don't beat yourself up when they occur. Just learn and try not to make the same mistake again once you know it was a mistake. Don't make this hard or overly difficult. When Yeshua said His "yoke" was easy, He was not talking to Gentiles so much as Jews who were being overburdened with Rabbinic regulations. His understanding of was easy. And that was one of the things the Jews expected of the Messiah when he came was he would better explain . Yeshua did this all through His ministry; and one of the ways was to simplify things. "If you love me, keep my commandments." Not all the Rabbinic fences and rulings and interpretations, but His commandments. He did say listen to the Rabbis, but specifically when they occupied the Moses Seat. From there they taught . That is what the reference to Moses was about. And that is what we should be studying on Shabbat. , not a list made by generations of robonim, but the Word itself. Then you decide whether or not to warm your food in a microwave and, whatever you decide I promise I won't condemn you for it (like I could anyhow, right?). Dan (Shabbat Shalom) C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 26, 2019 13:22:59 GMT -8
Like I said before, you can either drive yourself crazy trying to find the right list; and worse keep looking to either Judaism or Christianity for that list. Or you can learn to work from principles and make your own list based on reading and studying . Dan (Shabbat Shalom) C Yes, Dan, that is my struggle, trying to make my own list going back and forth between Judaism and Christianity, reading, studying and having dialogue with people on both sides of the coin trying to figure this thing out. Finding out that even the SDA's have different beliefs in Sabbath observance surprised me I must say. I think in some way a lot of Orthodox Jews think the OT is for the Israelites only, whether or not that includes the Gentiles living among them only they know. I think most Christians think the OT doesn't apply to them so they seek only the NT. That is pretty much my basic findings after having had extensive dialogue with them both. My stand on the Sabbath is I want to devote one day of the week to God trying to get as close to him as I possibly can, worshipping and thanking him for everything he does for me and mine and since he made the 7th day Holy, that is why I chose it as it is "his" chosen day. So I don;t know if using the word "Sabbath" is accurate for me or I should simply call it my day of dedication to God? Since God wants us to rest on that day then of course I have to figure out whether whatever I do during that day is work or not. I think it's impossible to avoid everything we think is work. Especially for every Jew living in a cold climate during the winter, every home has heating running, that is BOTH kindling a fire and using electricity the many times a furnace goes on and off during any 24 hour period so not even the most dedicated Jew can say they observe Shabbat accurately, according to their rules.
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Post by jimmie on Jan 26, 2019 13:46:57 GMT -8
I have confession to make. I broke Sabbath today. I went to work today and helped enter pay increases for 110 employees. I was given the go ahead at 4:30pm Friday to make the entries which had to be completed by 9:30am Monday, in order for it to be on the employees paycheck Friday. I could have made the two employees helping me come in on Sunday, their preferred holy day. However that would have been laying a burden upon them that I was not willing to lift a finger to perform myself.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 26, 2019 15:46:09 GMT -8
Like I said before, you can either drive yourself crazy trying to find the right list; and worse keep looking to either Judaism or Christianity for that list. Or you can learn to work from principles and make your own list based on reading and studying . Dan (Shabbat Shalom) C Yes, Dan, that is my struggle, trying to make my own list going back and forth between Judaism and Christianity, reading, studying and having dialogue with people on both sides of the coin trying to figure this thing out. Finding out that even the SDA's have different beliefs in Sabbath observance surprised me I must say. I think in some way a lot of Orthodox Jews think the OT is for the Israelites only, whether or not that includes the Gentiles living among them only they know. I think most Christians think the OT doesn't apply to them so they seek only the NT. That is pretty much my basic findings after having had extensive dialogue with them both. My stand on the Sabbath is I want to devote one day of the week to God trying to get as close to him as I possibly can, worshipping and thanking him for everything he does for me and mine and since he made the 7th day Holy, that is why I chose it as it is "his" chosen day. So I don;t know if using the word "Sabbath" is accurate for me or I should simply call it my day of dedication to God? Since God wants us to rest on that day then of course I have to figure out whether whatever I do during that day is work or not. I think it's impossible to avoid everything we think is work. Especially for every Jew living in a cold climate during the winter, every home has heating running, that is BOTH kindling a fire and using electricity the many times a furnace goes on and off during any 24 hour period so not even the most dedicated Jew can say they observe Shabbat accurately, according to their rules.
I started out just doing everything I could in advance to prepare for the day to avoid and minimize work, and that's pretty much where I stayed. My challenges came from hostility within my family over studying scripture and watching the online service and lessons, and how to maintain the right heart as well as my observance. I think you're taking to much on at once and maybe talking to too many other people before you really feel confident in your choices. For example, He chose it as His day and calls it a Shabbat or Sabbath in English. If you're in agreement with G-d on that, and it sounds you are, don't worry about anything more than doing the best you can with what He has shown you and certainly not what people think. No one is keeping the Sabbath as you stated, so if you're heart is devoted and you're depending on G-d you're probably doing a lot better then you think as G-d knows our circumstances and limitations and is merciful. We know this is imperfect and so again agree in humility that we can only do so much and therefore must depend on Him. I think you have the right heart so less talk with other people about what to do may be helpful. Just pray over your choices and intentions as you read through the scriptural commandments to develop the principles Alon has discussed, and ask G-d to help you do better, forgive any mistakes, and not to lose heart as you go. Just look at it as getting to know G-d better as you do things and change things He shows you as you go, but don't doubt what you know He has shown you. Saturday is His day and He calls it a Sabbath so you agree on that from what I hear. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 26, 2019 15:58:23 GMT -8
I have confession to make. I broke Sabbath today. I went to work today and helped enter pay increases for 110 employees. I was given the go ahead at 4:30pm Friday to make the entries which had to be completed by 9:30am Monday, in order for it to be on the employees paycheck Friday. I could have made the two employees helping me come in on Sunday, their preferred holy day. However that would have been laying a burden upon them that I was not willing to lift a finger to perform myself. Sorry you were put in such a place. I felt compelled to break Shabbat over a business obligation my husband had a couple of months ago. I felt I had no choice, but mine was worse than yours because it was a work function with alcohol and dancing, though we left before the dancing. It threw off the whole week for me and I wonder if maybe I didn't do enough to get out of it. I just didn't know how so didn't even try. I'm just saying this so you don't feel alone and hopefully less guilty cause it sounds like you do. I'm not sure what the answer is when it seems the only answer is upsetting people and creating division that likely won't produce good results anyway. Anyway, don't be too hard on yourself. You were put in a difficult situation. |
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was meant for the children of Israel and Christians and Gentiles are not "grafted" into anything.
