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Post by alon on Jan 26, 2019 18:34:55 GMT -8
Yes, Dan, that is my struggle, trying to make my own list going back and forth between Judaism and Christianity, ...
Then stop going between those two. Neither one can agree with themselves, and they surely will never agree with each other! So all you will get is confused. If you are going to be Messianic, then talk to Messianics. Read and study  . Learn the do's and don'ts of , but moreover learn the principles. Then what I mean by make your own list is not to type up a list to follow. If you know the principles involved, you can decide what to do on the spot. That's the point: you don't need a list, just the basics and the principles! God called it Shabbat, so that's what we should cal it. And He told us how to worship Him (at least the basics), so that is what we should do. Al that is in , so study that on Shabbat and you will learn more every week. And ignore the Christians and the Jews, both of which have an agenda in telling you their interpretations. You need to solidify your base in observant Messianism before talking to others. After your base is secured by study and you are no longer having so many problems, then you can glean understanding from other sources. But that takes a lot of discernment, which only comes from knowing ; and that only comes from a lot of study. If you don't know and understand the principles, how will you be able to judge what is right or wrong in what they say? That is why we just go around in circles here, dealing with the same problems. You are listening to Christian and Jewish sources as well as Messianic. That means you have at least three takes on every question, maybe more; and you have no way of judging who is right! You need to decide which camp you wish to be in and ignore the others. Otherwise, in a year, two years, ten years from now you will be in the same place going in the same circles, knowing no more than you do now. You need to pick one source and divest yourself of all other influences, then apply yourself to learning your foundational material. I mean really learning it; understanding it- know the principles and how to use them to make the tough decisions. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 26, 2019 18:42:14 GMT -8
I have confession to make. I broke Sabbath today. I went to work today and helped enter pay increases for 110 employees. I was given the go ahead at 4:30pm Friday to make the entries which had to be completed by 9:30am Monday, in order for it to be on the employees paycheck Friday. I could have made the two employees helping me come in on Sunday, their preferred holy day. However that would have been laying a burden upon them that I was not willing to lift a finger to perform myself. I'd say you did the right thing. The workman is due his wage, and getting that done so they got paid in a timely manner was a mitzvah. Moreover, being in a position of leadership often means the group's wants and needs often come before your own. Being top dawg is not all perqs. In fact, leadership makes more demands than it gives rewards. For instance, in the military if you are responsible for men, you may get better chow and shorter lines or even served while in garrison. However in the field or in combat, when that protein is important, you as a leader make sure the men eat first, then you eat. I'd say you did the right thing; followed the higher mitzvah. Just my opinion. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 27, 2019 5:07:33 GMT -8
Yeah Jimmie, I hear you man. I too might be facing having to break the Sabbath soon as this old house will be needing some repairs done in the spring/summer and I don;t have enough finance to pay contractors to do it. So I will need to depend on a construction friend of mine to help me with the repairs and problem is I will have to help him when he has the time and this will mean doing it on a Saturday, I see no way around this.
This means I will be knowing way in advance that I will be breaking the Sabbath and don;t know how God will view this. I don't have a choice the way I see it, I can't let the house go to ruins and some of the repairs directly deals with safety issues for the other people here.
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Post by mystic on Jan 29, 2019 11:30:24 GMT -8
BTW guys, are there any scriptures which reflects how Sabbath should be observed please? Only scripture I've ever encountered is the basic one Exodus 20:8-11
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Post by alon on Jan 29, 2019 12:43:15 GMT -8
BTW guys, are there any scriptures which reflects how Sabbath should be observed please? Only scripture I've ever encountered is the basic one Exodus 20:8-11 Acts 17:2,17; 18:4; 20:7 Deu 5:14 Ex 16:4 1 Cor 16:2 Heb 10:25 Lev 23:3 Luke 4:16 Just a few to start. If you are looking for an order of service or a list of things to do or not to do o Shabbat, I'm afraid there isn't one in scripture. Anything that doesn't violate the letter or the spirit of what is said in scripture is ok. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 30, 2019 4:58:47 GMT -8
Right so we are basically would need to either rely on a religion's instructions or on our own understanding of what God is requiring for "rest".
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Post by alon on Jan 30, 2019 13:19:23 GMT -8
Right so we are basically would need to either rely on a religion's instructions or on our own understanding of what God is requiring for "rest". It would help to have a good Messianic congregation to worship with and help guide you, however you always rely on the Word first! As long as what they do does not violate , then it's ok to do as they do. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 2, 2019 5:31:14 GMT -8
Hey guys, can anyone explain what's in bold from this verse please?
“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
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Post by alon on Feb 2, 2019 14:44:16 GMT -8
Hey guys, can anyone explain what's in bold from this verse please? “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” 8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;
and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”It's easy to get confused reading this passage. Verses 1-7 have to do with eunuchs and converts. The prophet is assuring both that as long as they keep and are joined to Israel, they have a place in the nation of Israel and are partakers in the covenant. These people would also have a part in rebuilding Yerushalayim and the Temple (though eunuchs could not be part of the Temple service or rituals, so they probably couldn't help rebuild it either). However vs. 8 moves to a new topic: 8 The Lord God,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,
This is the transition, and now he moves to the new topic: “I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered.”The response to the call to return to Yerushalem and help rebuild it was disappointingly small. This was the prophet reassuring those who heeded the call and were now looking at what must have seemed an overwhelming task that the Lord would gather even more Israelites to come and help. The same God who brought converts into the covenant as these people started a huge project would bring more Israelites from exile back to the holy city and the land of the promise to help with rebuilding and repopulating. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 2, 2019 14:59:54 GMT -8
6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”Dan C Got it thanks but the above refers to all mankind or only Israelites? |
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Post by alon on Feb 2, 2019 15:14:52 GMT -8
6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”Dan C Got it thanks but the above refers to all mankind or only Israelites? The "foreigners who join themselves to the Lord" would be Gentiles who convert to Judaism, so it would refer to all mankind who want to be fully joined to the nation of Yisrael, keeping and becoming heirs to the covenant, with all the responsibilities and promises incumbent therein. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 4, 2019 4:37:28 GMT -8
So then that is telling me God had no place in his kingdom for the Gentiles of this world who would not convert, this would explain why Christians put no stock in the OT , This would also answer my question that the was written only for the Israelites [Jews]. |
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Post by Questor on Feb 11, 2019 20:03:11 GMT -8
mystic, you keep looking to traditional Judaism for your halacha. But your quandary is that their halacha forbids you to keep Shabbat or practice observance. So then you decide to just keep the Adventist version of Shabbat, which is scarcely observant. You still want a list of some kind. So when the Adventist thing doesn't work, back you go to Judaism for your answers. And what you find confuses you more. No wonder, because traditional Judaism not only can't agree, their list was made by some wild speculation and applying meanings never given in scripture.
We are disciples of Yeshua, and we are to do what he did and taught.The prohibition on using electrical devices rests on two other prohibitions in Rabbinical Judaism (and they argue amongst themselves about which is the real reason). One is creating a spark. Nothing in says you can't create a spark. But that is equated with cooking and so is forbidden. And turning electrical devices on or off makes a spark (or so they say- not always). So you can readily see the stretch of imagination required. The second is creating heat, which is related back to not kindling (or making) a fire on Shabbat. However applying this to electrical devices is ridiculous. A fire kindled the day before could be maintained as long as the wood was gathered beforehand too. This created heat, yet is still allowed. That's one argument down the tubes. Another argument for allowing this is the electricity already existed, so it was like maintaining a fire. The problem is that electricity is continually produced and distributed, so it did not exist before Shabbat. So there goes that reasoning. And its use is continually metered, and Rabbinic Judaism forbids recording an agreement to buy. See how silly and complex these lists are? However we as Meshiachim are unbound by Rabbinic tradition which, more than observance seeks to control every aspect of our lives, making keeping Shabbat adherence to a grueling set of rules instead of a joyous day of rest. We can look to what is said, glean not only the specific prohibitions, but the principles involved and apply them to today and using electronoc devices. Genesis 2:3 (ESV) So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
The word translated "work" is מְלָאכָה melechah, and carries strong connotations of craftsmanship and "creative" work. Cooking on Shabbat is specifically prohibited in because it is creative work. So is making a fire. However maintaining a fire is just warming the home. It may also be used to keep previously cooked food warm. Using a microwave to cook food would be creating. Using it to warm food is sort of a gray area. Since the warming was not maintained, but started on Shabbat I don't. Some do because, as you say there is little work to pressing buttons.
Yet no one turns off electricity or gas on Shabbat in Israel.
But is making coffee...on a timer...work? Is electricity that is mostly mechanical work? Are you creating the electrcity, and thus working? Is the gas, or propane that is always on, and lit in your stove a kind of work if you turn it up to re-heat already cooked food?
And is communicating via computer any different than picking up a phone to chat, or going to a far-away synagogue by car to meet with other congregants a sin?
Mystic, we sin even as we breathe, being in a broken world with broken spirits in broken bodies, trying to do better than we did...but not trying to be Yeshua, because 1), he's G-d in human flesh, and perfect, and 2) we cannot be perfect. We are just supposed to try to be like Yeshua...even those of us who are sojourners, not born into Israel.
When I first faced keeping Shabbat as closely as I could, I did not try to do anything in a Jewish manner...or any manner at all. I did a study on the word Shabbat in Genesis through Deuteronomy, and noted only a very few things were mentioned...don't make fire (which was hard work as well as an expression of power over nature just as cooking is a powerful changing of matter from one state to another); do collect food and cook ahead of the day; don't do anything like work...regular work, whether it was collecting wood or carrying things to town to trade it for other goods, and thus don't buy and sell; and do have a set-apart convocation with other like-minded people to hear and discuss the parshahs, and glorify G-d...although in Moshe's day, I doubt it was that exact...Moshe was still teaching what to do and not do as he learned it from G-d, and even that was done at first in your own tent...not anywhere else, because G-d was in the Mishkan when it was built, and even Moshe was not allowed in to see G-d at the drop of a hat.
The idea of trying to think only G-d's thoughts is in Isaiah, the prophet to the prophets, and is not a commandment, so I haven't figured that one out at all. I don't know what G-d thinks on Shabbat. What did he think on the first Shabbat but how glorious was everything he had made, and how much it was to be enjoyed?
I try not to be too secular in what I do, but I fail, and for a long time I tried so hard to be at rest from all that is normal that I worked myself to exhaustion to be sabbatical. Now I take secular breaks in my Shabbat...just so I don't work so hard to be a perfect sabbath keeper! I don't, however, ever forget it's Shabbat and those deadly rules that the Rabbinical Jews listed to keep any kind of possible work from being done are always brought up by the Adversary to make me unhappy at how badly I do Shabbat.
Shabbat is supposed to be a joy, spent with others...and few of us Mashiachim have that...a celebratory Shabbat. Instead, we fight simply to not be overwhelmed by all the non-Sabbatarians around us. I find that anything that needs to be fixed in my current country home is only fixable on Shabbat by the Christians around me, and I simply shake my head and live with the fact that I am not in Israel, and not in a Jewish community, and I cannot make the world do as I want. I am even moving...as soon as my home sells...to a town with 4 synagogues...one of which claims to be Messianic, but I plan to test them all, and find a place that I can spend a part of my Shabbat at.
For me, long before I knew I was born under the covenant, the Ruach told me to 'Consider the Sabbath Day.' Exact words, audible. So, I consider it...all day...even on days leading up to Shabbat...wondering if it is Shabbat sometimes.
I have a Shabbat schedule of a kind...sing songs, say the Shema, eat food prepared in advance, drink wine, read the parshahs, read books about G-d or Judaism, or even non-sabbath books to G-d out loud to talk to him about them, watch pre-recorded lectures and sermons, and sometimes I write to others to communicate. And sometimes I fail at it all, being over-run by the world, or even by my own forgetfulness, for Shabbat cannot keep you sabbath-like very well if you are not keeping it with others.
And as to what Jews say to non-Jews about their customs, and not copying them? Make your own customs, and follow the Scriptures. That automatically puts you at 'less than observant' in their eyes, and thus, not usurping their special status as 'Observant Jews'. |
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Post by Questor on Feb 11, 2019 20:09:12 GMT -8
Yes, Dan, that is my struggle, trying to make my own list going back and forth between Judaism and Christianity, ...
Then stop going between those two. Neither one can agree with themselves, and they surely will never agree with each other! So all you will get is confused. If you are going to be Messianic, then talk to Messianics. Read and study . Learn the do's and don'ts of , but moreover learn the principles. Then what I mean by make your own list is not to type up a list to follow. If you know the principles involved, you can decide what to do on the spot. That's the point: you don't need a list, just the basics and the principles! Dan C
Funny how Acts 15 mentions us hearing Moshe read every Shabbat...because it's all there. |
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Post by mystic on Feb 15, 2019 4:36:31 GMT -8
Local Jewish guy told me turning on a light switch or any appliance is creating a fire, that is the issue with using electricity. Same with lighting a stove to reheat food. |
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. Learn the do's and don'ts of 
