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Post by alon on Oct 27, 2014 15:16:21 GMT -8
How would you witness to a Christian about Messianism and/or the need to become  observant? What scriptural proofs would you use?
Dan C
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Post by alon on Oct 27, 2014 15:29:57 GMT -8
For now I use the paper I wrote for the AoG pastor who challenged me to prove "Paul" was a observant Jew after his conversion.
Most of my reply to him was posted here:theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3462/rav-shaul--observantI ran off copies of this and put one in each Bible I have as a reference (cheat) sheet. I don't usually hit them with all of it at once, though I have given them the copy after we're done if they want it.
However I think this is inadequate. I need to pare this down, then add proofs from Yeshua as well as references to . These are in my notes, but digging them out is going to be a chore; plus I am sure I don't have everything. I'll happily plagiarize anything ya'll want to contribute! 
Of course that is kind of the point here, that we all contribute and help each other out! We all grow as we share.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 28, 2014 12:36:41 GMT -8
I look forward to reading over it as I have a ton to learn on this subject. It will take me a while to comment regarding the topic though. I will say, in my experience, Christians are more difficult to reason with than non-believers because they can be so convinced of what they think they know. My mother, G-d bless her and how I do love her, actually agrees with me and seems to have a Messianic kind of outlook. But,even she keeps pushing her food on me with that verse, "all that I gave you is good". It can get really awkward. Anyway, I feel like I am defending myself more than convincing other people of what I believe, so I really do look forward to learning more on the subject myself.
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73 
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Post by Miykhael on Oct 29, 2014 7:25:59 GMT -8
B”H
What the difference between a Christian and a NON believer?
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2014 11:07:52 GMT -8
B”H What the difference between a Christian and a NON believer?
Christians present a whole different problem. First off, they think they are saved; and worse they think they know all about the things of God. Worse yet, many of them (though far from most) show the fruits of the Spirit in spades. I cannot know at what point a person is saved. I can only go by their fruits and whether they are presently walking with God to the best of their understanding. So first off I need to figure out do I need to go over the plan of salvation with them, stressing repentance and obedience; or do I just need to speak with them about observance as a necessary part of their salvation and growth.
Christians tend to be tougher to convince since they have been brainwashed to think anything Jewish is heresy and evil. They also do NOT want to give up Easter and (GASP) Christmas! !!! They also have been told that the Law is burdensome, that we think the Law will save us, and they know they'll have to give up bacon and ham. These things are more important to them than pleasing God because they've been taught they are under 'grace', and God will turn a blind eye to their indulgences.
The only way I can think of to change their minds is to challenge their underlying assumptions. Prove that Yeshua never changed any part of the law; prove Rav Sha'ul and all the apostles were TO Jews long after the resurrection and ascension of Yeshua. Prove the "church" was not where the first cen. believers worshiped, and that it was entirely pagan from its' inception.
I have my proofs on Rav Sha'ul pared down. I'll post them here. The others may take a while.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2014 11:28:17 GMT -8
Sha’ul (Paul) Was a Observant Jew
[scripture quoted from the ESV unless otherwise noted.]
Acts 23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial."
Rav Sha’ul more than once claimed to still be a P’rush (Pharisee), and never said he ceased to be one, with all that this name implied.
Acts 28:17 After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, "Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
The way, Gk ‘hodos’, refers to the sect of the Natsarim, who were seekers of the way. And here Sha’ul clearly states he believes in the Law, which is .
Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Acts 18:18 After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.
Wycliffe Bible Commantary. Acts 18:18- Paul now stayed in Corinth ….Before leaving Corinth, he assumed a Nazarite vow (see Num 6:1-21) which was an OT act of thanksgiving or of dedication to God. During the period of the vow, the devotee allowed his hair to grow uncut, and at the end of the period he cut his hair. As he came to Cenchrea, the eastern port of Corinth, on his way to Syria and Palestine, the time of his vow elapsed, and he therefore cut his hair.(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)
The only way Sha’ul could be under the vow of the Natsarim, was to have been observant.
Acts 21:23-24 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Paul taught others to live under the law, and to show others this was the case.
Acts 17:1-2 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
1 Cor 5: 7-8 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Apparently he kept Passover.
Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.
He kept Shavu’ot.
1 Tim 1:8-11 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
So he taught the law, , saying it is good and in accordance with the gospel.
1 Tim 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
He is telling them to be at the weekly, Shabbat readings of the parsha, and haftorah. Scripture was on scrolls, which only were at the synagogues. We tend to think like everyone had their own scroll, as we do our Bibles today. This was not the case.
2 Tim 3:15-16 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
ALL scripture, the scripture they were acquainted with from childhood- this can only refer to the TNK, the Old Testament. There was no New Testament at the time this was written! He was writing it! This should be inscribed in the classrooms of every seminary. You cannot look back at the finished work and say everything refers to that work. It doesn’t. It refers to what was in existence at the time of the writing of this document. And it is those writings, the TNK, which will make men obedient and wise for salvation. This doesn’t nullify the work of the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament), however Rav Sha’ul could hardly affirm something he was writing at the time. Any Logic 101 student would denounce that as a circular argument.
Acts 15:20-21 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
is taught in every Syangogue every Shabbath, including in Messianic Synagogues. This is where we learn how to act, what is sin- and that has NOT changed since the Garden! We are given a starting place and told where to learn the rest!
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
G2476 ἵστημι histēmi his'-tay-mee to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively); abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set up, stanch, stand by.
Sounds to me like Sha’ul is saying the still IS the Law, in name and in FACT! Still in effect.
Rom 16:25-26 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith.
Again, these prophetic writings that bring about faith are the TNK! The B’rit Chadasha (Renewed Covenant, a.k.a. New Testament) was still being written. There was no “New Testament” at the time Sha’ul wrote this.
Rav Sha’ul did keep . He taught observance to others as well. He was a Pharisee and a observant Jew, just as his Moshiach, Yeshua, was before him.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 29, 2014 15:34:40 GMT -8
Miykhael, ( I hope I spelled that correctly), Many Christians aren't really seeking either. As opposed to non-believers who are still trying to understand, Christians think they already do. When you are trying to reason with them, they in contrast are trying to "save" you. That is what I ran into with a Lutheran Pastor. He was convinced he was right, I was wrong, and he was trying to get me in the "church". He was also all about that "freedom" issue you refer to, Alon. They don't see the commandments of G-d as anything other than restrictions that told us how bad we are and what we can't do, so there is no appeal in following them because Yeshua is supposedly freedom from the law. In their eyes that's what "fulfillment" means.
Maybe just going through some of the passages they throw back at us with them would be helpful. I know I was shocked when I realized how long I had read Matthew 5:20 exactly wrong. I think we have to keep in mind that evil is at work in preventing what it is we are going for here. It is amazing how many believers honestly don't read an entire passage before they think they know it. I was one of them. You always hear it the way you have always heard it, until you really start to listen. When I finally understood that passage, it felt like evil had been preventing me from seeing it. That brings us back to many Christians simply not seeking. They don't know they need to look.
Alon, maybe you can go through the plan of salvation in a way that asks and involves them rather than tells them, if that makes sense. Maybe let them tell you what they think they need to be saved to see if you need to help clarify and go from there...
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Post by alon on Oct 30, 2014 0:07:04 GMT -8
Alon, maybe you can go through the plan of salvation in a way that asks and involves them rather than tells them, if that makes sense. Maybe let them tell you what they think they need to be saved to see if you need to help clarify and go from there...
The next line of defense is usually that Paul and the apostles were no longer Jewish and didn't keep those laws.Same question, "Wouldn't you want to know if they did? Then go through my paper on Paul with them.
Most specific challenges they may give can be cleared up by reading the verse in context.
Stress the truth is much more important than obedience to a system that is wrong. They have missed the mark.Dan C |
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Post by alon on Oct 31, 2014 23:26:14 GMT -8
So far all I have on the Apostles and Disciples and Yeshua is this:Yeshua (Jesus) Was a Observant JewMat 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
fulfil (fʊlˈfɪl) v.t.
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy requirements, obligations, etc.: to fulfill a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time.
5. to develop the full potential of (usu. used reflexively): to fulfill oneself in charitable work.
(Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.)So, out of 5 possible meanings of the word fulfill, 4 support that is still in effect. And out of 3 verses which undeniably say is still valid, one word and one fifth of a definition of that word are taken and used by Christians to say is done away with. No honest reading supports this.Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
This verse confirms to still be valid.
Yeshua attended synagogues: Matthew 12:9, Matthew 13:54, Mark 1:21, Mark 1:29, Mark 3:1, Mark 6:2, Luke 4:16, Luke 4:20, Luke 4:28, Luke 4:38, Luke 6:6, Luke 7:5, John 6:59, John 12:42, John 18:20, Acts 13:14, Acts 13:42, Acts 14:1, Acts 18:4, Acts 18:26, Acts 19:8 just to mention a few scriptures affirming this.Yeshua also went to Temple: Matthew 21, Luke 2:22, Luke 21:37, John 18:20
We can also infer from the fact Yeshua kept Passover (Luke:22:15) that He would have kept the other feast days as well, as commanded.Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
This was said just before His ascension, yet “all that I have commanded you” was almost completely before His death when to even have spoken against would have been a sin, thus disqualifying Him as Messiah! Yeshua was therefore commanding observance in the Great Commission!
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
This question indicates the disciples still expected Yeshua to restore the Kingdom of Yisra’el; and this act depended on their (Yisra’el’s) adherence to . So we can infer here they were still keeping , and Yeshua did not correct them concerning obedience. And this was just before His ascension!Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
So just after the ascension the disciples were still measuring distance by the Shabbath laws, where you had to find shelter before Shabbath. Not only were they doing this just after the ascension, but Luke probably wrote this at least 30 yrs later, and he was still measuring a trip by Levitical law! So again we can safely infer that Yeshua never instructed the disciples to do away with .
The Apostles and Early Believers Remained JewishActs 2:46,47 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
They still worshiped at the Temple. Had they not been observant, they’d have been beaten and possibly killed on the spot!
Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
They not only worshiped at the Temple, they kept the Jewish traditions. This was for the Amidah, the Standing Prayer, instituted during the Babylonian captivity. This was after was written.
Acts 5:12-14 Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon's Portico. None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
So still at the Temple they preached the Word and added Jewish converts. Had they taught anything against they would have been thrown out, beaten and worse. They were Jews preaching a Jewish Messiah.
Acts 5:19, 20 But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, "Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this Life."
Again God sends a messenger to tell them to speak in the Temple- a thing only possible if they were preaching in accordance with .
Acts 5:38-40 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" So they took his advice, and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
There is absolutely no way Gamaliel (the speaker here) could convince the Sanhedrin that these men might be undertaking the plan of God unless they were absolutely observant!
Acts 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
So every day in the Temple- only observant Jews were allowed in the Temple. The crowds would have risen up against them had they preached less, or of a Messiah that was less than absolutely observant.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 3, 2014 19:30:21 GMT -8
Alon, I am going to print out your references on witnessing and use them to guide me as I read through these scriptures. You have devoted yourself to a huge and admirable task. I homeschool, so time to read and study my own interests is a luxury for me. This will help make it so much more manageable, and give me some ideas for where to begin a more Hebraic approach to scripture. Thanks for posting!
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Post by alon on Nov 3, 2014 23:58:15 GMT -8
There is an inductive proof I like to use at the outset, just to get them thinking: Jews were at the time under Roman law. They only had authority to discipline other observant Jews. The Romans were pagan and didn't care (at the time, later they did) what God or gods you worshiped. So had any one of the Apostles said at any time "I am not observant," they would have ceased to be under Jewish authority and come under the protection of Rome. Paul (Rav Sha'ul) was, by an accident of birth both a observant Jew and a Roman citizen. So had he played the "Not TO" card he would have been immediately released and guarded against retaliation. Yet none of these men ever said those words, "I'm not TO."
They endured beatings, being cursed and lied about. They were jailed in deplorable conditions. Most were cruelly martyred. Yet not one of them ever played the "I'm not TO" trump card. Think of this while going through the proofs that these men WERE observant Jews to the end.
Dan C
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 7, 2014 10:15:42 GMT -8
ב’’ה See the Good News of the Gospel is the of Hashem that was given at Mount Sinai, in that is the plan in how Hashem planned to redeem mankind. Therefore if that is true I see both the christians and the non believer are the same cause they both reject the . (even if the christians think the Has changed some how from jesus coming which in that case is just as bad as rejecting ). These verses keep coming to mind. Yochanan Alef, 1 John 3:4-6 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating —indeed, sin is violation of . You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him. Now having that verse do christians keep Kosher or wear tzitztit and keeping Shabbos (i.e.)? the non believer and christian seem to share the floor on these issues by not knowing Hashem and his Moshiach. Maybe I am wrong. |
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Post by alon on Dec 7, 2014 12:22:21 GMT -8
ב’’ה See the Good News of the Gospel is the of Hashem that was given at Mount Sinai, in that is the plan in how Hashem planned to redeem mankind. Therefore if that is true I see both the christians and the non believer are the same cause they both reject the . (even if the christians think the Has changed some how from jesus coming which in that case is just as bad as rejecting ).
This seems to say that some who teach against will be in Heaven.I just went to church with my wife, and heard a sermon which could have as well been delivered by any good Messianic Rabbi. The pastor preached about , how the correct interpretation is "instruction" and not "law." He spoke of how was the foundation for the rest of the Bible, particularly the "New Testament." He taught that "Jesus" came to make the full, to fulfill those instructions; and the way he used the word fulfill was more in line with Messianic interpretation than mainstream teaching. And he did a pretty decent job talking about how when we accept "Jesus" we are entering into a covenant, and that covenant includes obeying those instructions, God's . He preached about being engaged in a relationship vertically with God and horizontally with others as part of a community.
And yet this sermon was delivered on Sunday morning and in front of a Christmas Tree! So you may be right- I don't know. Certainly there is a need to witness to those Christians who will listen. At the very least they will suffer loss due to their disobedience. Worst case scenario they miss the mark or fall away and are cast out.
So we come back to the same questions: when and how do we witness to a Christian?
Dan C |
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alex
New Member
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Post by alex on Dec 7, 2014 20:14:19 GMT -8
ב’’ה See the Good News of the Gospel is the of Hashem that was given at Mount Sinai, in that is the plan in how Hashem planned to redeem mankind. Therefore if that is true I see both the christians and the non believer are the same cause they both reject the . (even if the christians think the Has changed some how from jesus coming which in that case is just as bad as rejecting ). These verses keep coming to mind. Yochanan Alef, 1 John 3:4-6 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating —indeed, sin is violation of . You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him. Now having that verse do christians keep Kosher or wear tzitztit and keeping Shabbos (i.e.)? the non believer and christian seem to share the floor on these issues by not knowing Hashem and his Moshiach. Maybe I am wrong.
I have been told that Xtian's hear the word , but see it in their mind as the oral law. Perhaps if they were to look at simply following the as a Karaite would, they would be less overwhelmed by the fear the very word Law strikes in them. [/On Xtian boards, one cannot mention the Sabbath without being hit with a nasty remark about the 613 laws as derived by the Sages, yet one count has the Brit Chadishah having 645 separate laws, some of which are of Yeshua's speaking about how one is to think, or not think, in order to be perfect. I said that once...they had no answer.
For Xtians, (I call them this if they do not really follow the Anointed One by obeying Yeshua's order to love God and love one another, which includes all of the that are not specific identifiers of being a member of the Tribe of Judah) they are mostly feeling their way toward Yeshua. Still, I do not think that any one follower of Yeshua stops violating even the written , at least, not all at once, and even then, can he do it perfectly? Can anyone?
Can any of us who are not brought up learning it from our cradle even come close, and then, being human, don't we still blow it? So, the Xtians, knowing next to nothing, may be saved in Yeshua, and imbued with the Ruach, and be caught in a terrible trap of lack of knowledge, and bad leadership. But it's pretty hard to just walk up and say, "Hey, your Pastor never even teaches about Yeshua wanting our obedience to ", because, it's taken as an attack on Xtianity...which it is.
The Xtian idea of somehow being changed or done away with is the lie that the evil one has taught from the 2nd generation assembly. Xtians have been taught that grace replaces the , since "the 'Law' was nailed to the cross", but they do not understand that what was nailed to the tree was the Living . Even had the written somehow died there, which is silly, it would have been resurrected with Yeshua, and still be in operation, with that Grace added for our human imperfection as a gift of love.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 13, 2014 21:26:14 GMT -8
I was saved before I knew to keep . That's just how great G-d's grace is. However, I worry for the strength of non- observant believers. observance gives you a firm foundation and a deep relationship with G-d that non- observant believers can't even begin to understand. (This is all just based on my personal experience.) If they are saved, they are on very shaky ground. I do believe if we don't give the believers in our lives what we know, we will be held responsible for their weaknesses, which helps me avoid judging them. You are always blessed for the sake of someone else.
I am going to be a lot more vocal about my beliefs with my family, starting with my mom. Here are my thoughts and please provide any feedback.
I was thinking about what freedom and Yeshua's fulfillment means to Messianic believers as opposed to Christians. It struck me that this is just another place where Christians are using replacement ideology...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Matthey 5:17
For Messianic believers, fulfillment means we have a more complete picture of . We literally have the to hold and behold in Yeshua. The freedom he gives is and his spirit to live it more fully.
However, consider Matthew 5:17. For Christians, fulfillment means Yeshua abolishes, or "replaces", the . It seems like the same perversity they apply to Israel and the church. Christians are saying that the freedom Jesus gives them is freedom from the very word of G-d. They are using Yeshua to replace the very word of G-d, while the word of G-d is Yeshua himself. How twisted is that? That's is absolutely terrifying.
I am thinking of starting with this verse with my mother. She is against replacement theology when it comes to Israel, I am going to broaden the idea and apply it to Yeshua and . Any thoughts or suggestions? Getting ready for a wild Christmas this year. 
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observant? What scriptural proofs would you use?
