Was Rav Sha'ul Torah Observant?

[alon]

I was recently challenged by an Assemblies pastor to prove that "Paul" was Observant. This is a bit long, but it is what I just gave him:

Did Rav Sha’ul (Paul) Keep the ?

Acts 23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial."

Rav Sha’ul more than once claimed to still be a P’rush (Pharisee), and never said he ceased to be one, with all that this name implied.

Acts 28: 17 After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, "Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

The way, Gk ‘hodos’, refers to the sect of the Natsarim, who were seekers of the way. And here Sha’ul clearly states he believes in the Law, which is , and the Prophets. A clear reference to the -Nevi’im-Kethuvim, the Old Testament.

Acts 24: 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

And what did the early catholic (universal) church think of the Natsarim? Were they “Christians”, Jews, or something other?

2nd cen. church father Jerome, in a letter to Augustine, said:

“The adherents to this sect are known commonly as Nazarenes; they believe in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary; and they say that He who suffered under Pontius Pilate and rose again, is the same as the one in whom we believe. But while they desire to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other. … If, however, there is for us no alternative but to receive the Jews into the Church, along with the usages prescribed by their law; if, in short, it shall be declared lawful for them to continue in the Churches of Christ what they have been accustomed to practice in the synagogues of Satan, I will tell you my opinion of the matter: they will not become Christians, but they will make us Jews. “

Fourth century church father Epiphanius gives a good description of the Natsarim:

"We shall now especially consider heretics who... call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews; for they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings..., and they profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and to the customs of the Jews, except they believe in [Messiah] ... They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites, such as circumcision, the Sabbath, and other ceremonies." [/font

So, the Natsarim sect was different, did keep , and Rav Sha’ul was their ringleader!

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Acts 18:18 After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.

Wycliffe Bible Commantary. Acts 18:18- Paul now stayed in Corinth ….Before leaving Corinth, he assumed a Nazarite vow (see Num 6:1-21) which was an OT act of thanksgiving or of dedication to God. During the period of the vow, the devotee allowed his hair to grow uncut, and at the end of the period he cut his hair. ………. As he came to Cenchrea, the eastern port of Corinth, on his way to Syria and Palestine, the time of his vow elapsed, and he therefore cut his hair

The only way Sha’ul could be “under a vow,” especially the vow of the Nazarine, was to have been observant.

Acts 21: 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

Paul taught others to observe the law, and to do so openly as a witness.

Acts 17:1-2 1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Shouldn’t we be in synagogue on Shabbath, as should be OUR custom?

1 Cor 5: 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Apparently he kept Passover.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

He kept Shavu’ot.

Eph 4:25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

Zach 8:16 These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;

Sha’ul taught from the Prophets, as did Yeshua- the teachings of Yeshua were mirrored, sometimes word for word, in the Mishna! And Rav Sha’ul would have copied his Redeemer.

Now if Rav Sha’ul did uphold the TNK, as did Yeshua, shouldn’t we also?

1 Tim 1: 8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

He taught the law, , saying it is good and in accordance with the gospel.

[alon]

1 Tim 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

He is telling them to be at the weekly Shabbath readings of the par’sha, and haftorah And they are to listen and learn from this. Scripture was on scrolls, which only were at the synagogues. We tend to think like everyone had their own scroll, as we do our Bibles today. This was not the case.

2 Tim 3: 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.

Moses teachings are compared to truth, and those who oppose his teachings to the magicians in Pharaoh’s court.

2 Tim 3: 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

ALL scripture, the scripture they were acquainted with from childhood- this can ONLY refer to the TNK, the Old Testament. There was no New Testament at the time this was written. HE WAS WRITING IT! This needs to be inscribed above the doors of every seminary. You CANNOT look back at the finished work and say everything refers to that work. It doesn’t. It refers to what was in existence at the time of the writing of THIS document. And it is those writings, the TNK, which will make men obedient and wise for salvation. This doesn’t nullify the work of the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament), however Rav Sha’ul could hardly affirm something he was writing at the time. Any Logic 101 student would denounce that as a circular argument.

Acts 14:12-18 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, 15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. 16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness." 18 Even with these words they scarcely restrained the people from offering sacrifice to them.

They were aghast because they knew the taught against idolatry, and they accepted its teachings. There can be no other reason for their reaction.

Acts 15:29 “that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

This was/is a minimum requirement to start, not the only requirements.

Acts 15: 31 And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, encouraged and strengthened the brothers with many words.

They did in fact get more instruction than this minimum in the council’s letter sent with Sha’ul.

Acts 15: 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

is taught in every Syangogue every Shabbath, including in Messianic Synagogues. This is where we learn how to act, what is sin- Gods’ instructions () for our lives! We are given a starting place and told where to learn the rest!

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

G2476 ἵστημι histēmi his'-tay-mee A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).

Sounds to me like Sha’ul is saying the still IS the Law, not just in name but in FACT! Still in effect.

Rom 13:8 & 9 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

And here he is upholding it, teaching it, establishing it. He is preaching .

To “fulfill” the law here is plainly to keep it! Can any man “nullify” the law? And do we nullify that which we obey, and teach our children to obey? This simply can’t be.


Rom 16: 25-26 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith

Again, these prophetic writings that bring about faith are the TNK! The B’rit Chadasha (Renewed Covenant, a.k.a. New Testament) was still being written. There was no “New Testament” at the time Sha’ul wrote this.

1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord."

Sha’ul quotes the prophet Yeshayahu, calls his words the law and accepts (and teaches) his teachings.

Isaiah 28: 11 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people,

Did Sha’ul teach that the Law is a curse?

Galatians 3: 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." 12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"

So there is a curse of the Law. But is the Law itself the curse? Did God give us something to bring harm to us? And did Ieusus come to “fulfill” this Law by doing away with it?

Deuteronomy 4:40 Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.

“Go well with” doesn’t sound like a curse, and “for all time” doesn’t sound like anything is going to be done away with.

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Sounds rather like Rav Sha’ul likes the Law; thinks it is a good thing.

When Sha’ul was falsely accused of teaching that the was done away with, he acted decisively to stop these accusations:

Acts 21: 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

So either we believe Sha’ul a liar or he really did not preach the doing away with . I’d rather conclude that both Yeshua, a observant Jew Himself, and Rav Sha’ul likewise, both fulfilled the Law by upholding it.

In 2 Cor 6:14-7:1 we find the message Rav Sha’ul preached- the same message as Yeshua and the same message as in . Sha’ul, as Yeshua before him, preached the Old Testament LAW. He preaches here be separate, be holy, be pure through observance of the Law of Moses- the .

2 Peter 3: 14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Mainstream Christianity has more convoluted, twisted arguments about what they teach. If you don’t believe this, sit quietly and explain to yourself why you worship on Sunday yet don’t keep the Biblically mandated Shabbath. If you honestly and completely did this, you just proved to yourself the truth of what I said.

Yet these are some very learned men who teach Mainstream Christian doctrine. I can only conclude that the dogmas handed down by men like Marcion, the Popes and early Protestants hold us all in an iron grip of ignorance. Ignorance, however, is not necessarily a terminal condition. The choice is ours.

Rav Sha’ul did keep . He taught observance to others as well. He was a Pharisee and a observant Jew, just as his Moshiach, Yeshua was before him.

[alon]

I apologize for the length, but this is what I gave the pastor. I started to edit out some of it, but didn't because it would have detracted from what I said. Also I hope others can benefit from my work on this.

Dan C

[Micha'el]

Shalom Dan! I am curious to know what the man's response was, given he read all of it.
Micha'el

[alon]

Aug 21, 2014 4:59:17 GMT -8 Micha'el said:

Shalom Dan! I am curious to know what the man's response was, given he read all of it.
Micha'el

I won't see him this week as I'll be in Tacoma on Sunday. When he gets back to me I'll let you know.

Dan

[jimmie]

also, what does he offer to prove that Paul disobeyed the law.

[alon]

Aug 21, 2014 10:06:26 GMT -8 jimmie said:

also, what does he offer to prove that Paul disobeyed the law.

Nothing yet. However I know him and if he is not too angry to speak to me I'll get a paper with all the mainstream doctrine supported by their pet scriptures to counter my little paper.

If he is angry I'll get him in my face with all his doctrine delivered machine-gun style so I can't effectively counter it. The challenge then will be to stay focused, calm, and bring it to a point where we can look at his points one by one. No matter how he does it, I probably have a tough row to hoe. But God put me there so He'll see me through- even if all He wants is to teach me some humility!

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 17, 2014 21:10:13 GMT -8 alon said:

I apologize for the length, but this is what I gave the pastor. I started to edit out some of it, but didn't because it would have detracted from what I said. Also I hope others can benefit from my work on this.

Dan C

Thanks, Alon! This is terrific! I retitled it "Did Paul keep and Teach the " and printed it for Xtian friends already!

[alon]

I just presented this paper, minus a few edits so I didn't monopolize the Rabbis' time, to a sister congregation of my Synagogue. It was well received, even though my public speaking skills have rusted something terrible! We are going on three months now since I gave it to the pastor, and still he has not replied. He hasn't yelled at me or given me dirty looks either, so we'll see. If anyone wants to pray for him he is Pastor Joe (God'll know who you mean ).

Dan C

[garrett]

I know this is an older thread...but did Pastor Joe ever get back to you? If this opens old wounds, don't worry about it - just interested.

Thanks - garrett

[alon]

No wounds on me ... he never answered this; and in fact he sort of avoids me these days. I am OK with that, although I'd like it more if he'd engage and listen instead of challenging then avoiding. But it is what it is, and I can't help it, so ...

Dan C

[garrett]

Apr 22, 2016 22:49:19 GMT -8 alon said:

No wounds on me ... he never answered this; and in fact he sort of avoids me these days. I am OK with that, although I'd like it more if he'd engage and listen instead of challenging then avoiding. But it is what it is, and I can't help it, so ...

Dan C

Yeah, that's usually how it goes....

[maranguape]

Aug 21, 2014 10:06:26 GMT -8 jimmie said:

also, what does he offer to prove that Paul disobeyed the law.

    Paul's own declaration that he had absolutely nothing to do with the Law aka the . If you read Romans 7:6, here is what he wrote in his Letter
    to the Roman Jews: "But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to what we held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the
    Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. That's proof that Paul not only disobeyed the Law but also the whole . That's evidence that Paul had
    totally deserted Judaism when he decided to found Christianity, his new religion in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26)

[maranguape]

Apr 23, 2016 15:20:15 GMT -8 garrett said:

Apr 22, 2016 22:49:19 GMT -8 alon said:

No wounds on me ... he never answered this; and in fact he sort of avoids me these days. I am OK with that, although I'd like it more if he'd engage and listen instead of challenging then avoiding. But it is what it is, and I can't help it, so ...

Dan C

Yeah, that's usually how it goes....

    But it does not have to be that way, does it? 

[alon]

Aug 23, 2018 15:03:57 GMT -8 maranguape said:

Aug 21, 2014 10:06:26 GMT -8 jimmie said:

also, what does he offer to prove that Paul disobeyed the law.

    Paul's own declaration that he had absolutely nothing to do with the Law aka the . If you read Romans 7:6, here is what he wrote in his Letter
    to the Roman Jews: "But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to what we held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the
    Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. That's proof that Paul not only disobeyed the Law but also the whole . That's evidence that Paul had
    totally deserted Judaism when he decided to found Christianity, his new religion in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26)

Romans 7:4-6  (ESV) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.  For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.  But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

We have to read such statements in context. This is a discourse on the curse of the law. Just prior we read:

Romans 6:20-22  (ESV) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

So we are not just set foot-loose-and fancy-free. We are still slaves, but now slaves of God. Slaves do what the master tells them, and our Master told us how to act and what to do in .

Romans 7:7-12  (ESV) What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”  But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.  I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Clearly Rav Shaul is here speaking of our relationship TO the law, not apart from it. And he says that "the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." That does not sound like he is advocating doing away with it. 

I would also take issue with the statement that Paul decided to make a new religion. The sect of the Notsarim was well established before he joined. In fact, it was the members of this sect he was busy trying to kill off! There were no Christians in his lifetime (although the term had been applied to believers at Antioch- Acts 11:26). It was the church fathers, starting in the mid 2nd cen CE who decided to start a new religion eschewing everything Jewish. However Rav Shaul was a Jew who loved his people and who kept all his life (read the entire original post for proof).

What you have done here is take one verse out of context and built a doctrine around it. This is what Christianity does, and is how almost every bad doctrine they espouse is created. Paul especially must be taken and read in context: the context of what he is saying and who he is speaking to, and the context of all his writings. And never does he say any part of is nullified or done away with- especially in Acts 11:6.

Dan C