|
|
Post by alon on May 8, 2014 18:51:35 GMT -8
There is a lot of talk about sacrifices in the Acharit HaYamim lately. I found this in the " Background to Prayers" section of my " Atrscroll Sabbath and Festival Transliterated Linear Sedur". Under The Sources of Our Prayers, Korbanos / Offerings: "The second source of our prayers is the Korbanos, the daily offerings that were brought to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The  ordains that one lamb was to be offered in the morning and a second lamb in the afternoon (Numbers 28:4). ... These dialy offrings brought atonement to the Jewish nation and renewed the close ties between Hashem and His people. Indeed, the word korban, generally - but erroneously - translated as sacrifice, comes from the root karov, which means coming close. Far from a "sacrifice," a word that implies loss, a korban is a positive thing - a means of drawing close to God."So in this line of reasoning there is every reason to reinstate the sacrifices. As usual, in our, specifically my own limited scope and understanding, we argue from a narrow (although valid) perspective where we only consider the representative nature of the sacrifice: looking forward vs. looking back. But could there be other benefits or reasons for renewing the sacrifices? It is God's due, certainly. But everything He does seems to benefit us far more than Himself. After all, He is the only self sufficient being- self sufficient in every way, which means really we are here merely because He wanted it so, not because He needs us. As one who has walked in darkness, I can tell you that this is an extremely important distinction. So what reasons, other than as part of the worship due to the Almighty, might YHVH have for reinstituting the Temple Sacrifices? Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 8, 2014 19:45:41 GMT -8
There is a lot of talk about sacrifices in the Acharit HaYamim lately. I found this in the " Background to Prayers" section of my " Atrscroll Sabbath and Festival Transliterated Linear Linear Sedur". Under The Sources of Our Prayers, Korbanos / Offerings: "The second source of our prayers is the Korbanos, the daily offerings that were brought to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The ordains that one lamb was to be offered in the morning and a second lamb in the afternoon (Numbers 28:4). ... These dialy offrings brought atonement to the Jewish nation and renewed the close ties between Hashem and His people. Indeed, the word korban, generally - but erroneously - translated as sacrifice, comes from the root karov, which means coming close. Far from a "sacrifice," a word that implies loss, a korban is a positive thing - a means of drawing close to God."So in this line of reasoning there is every reason to reinstate the sacrifices. As usual, in our, specifically my own limited scope and understanding, we argue from a narrow (although valid) perspective where we only consider the representative nature of the sacrifice: looking forward vs. looking back. But could there be other benefits or reasons for renewing the sacrifices? It is God's due, certainly. But everything He does seems to benefit us far more than Himself. After all, He is the only self sufficient being- self sufficient in every way, which means really we are here merely because He wanted it so, not because He needs us. As one who has walked in darkness, I can tell you that this is an extremely important distinction. So what reasons, other than as part of the worship due to the Almighty, might YHVH have for reinstituting the Temple Sacrifices? Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 8, 2014 20:12:01 GMT -8
Once one is past sin being the problem, sacrifices would be for thanksgiving, for celebration, for remembrance, for the sealing of a vow, for the completion of it, and in sheer unadulterated love of Abba. Other than the sin not being a problem, those are really good reasons. I think there will still be sin in the Millineal era, especially toward the end when ha satan is loosed. 1000 yrs of sacrifices, seeing the innocent blood shed for them would be a very vivid lesson of the price of sin which might restrain them from giving in to the enemy. Don't you think? Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 8, 2014 20:33:42 GMT -8
Once one is past sin being the problem, sacrifices would be for thanksgiving, for celebration, for remembrance, for the sealing of a vow, for the completion of it, and in sheer unadulterated love of Abba. Other than the sin not being a problem, those are really good reasons. I think there will still be sin in the Millineal era, especially toward the end when ha satan is loosed. 1000 yrs of sacrifices, seeing the innocent blood shed for them would be a very vivid lesson of the price of sin which might restrain them from giving in to the enemy. Don't you think? Dan C
Everyone will come up to the Temple on the three Pilgramage Feasts, including any Pagans or Jews, but what the sacrifices would be is the question.
Any Jew with Yehoshua in his face would be insane to deny Him, and therefore will be Messianic Jews, and not in need of a sacrifice for sin. The pagans wouldn't be allowed in the Temple anyway (or at least not past the outer court), so I wonder who would be sacrificing for sin at that time. To remember Yehoshua's sacrifice, perhaps, and for some nice roast lamb, or in thanksgiving to Yehoshua for His self-sacrifice, and for some nice roast lamb (Yep...have it every Passover! Still, I don't eat for any reason but pleasure.)
At the release of haSatan from the pit, for one last hurrah, only non-believers will be gathering on the Adversary's side at that Gog Magog fight, and they would not be living in Israel. So I just don't see sacrifice for sin at all after Yehoshua returns. Certainly for the re-dedication of the 3rd Temple, if it is still standing, we will need a Red Heifer, just as we will to consecrate a newly built Temple in the soon coming times. And I love roast beef too!
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 8, 2014 21:20:09 GMT -8
Other than the sin not being a problem, those are really good reasons. I think there will still be sin in the Millineal era, especially toward the end when ha satan is loosed. 1000 yrs of sacrifices, seeing the innocent blood shed for them would be a very vivid lesson of the price of sin which might restrain them from giving in to the enemy. Don't you think? Dan C
Everyone will come up to the Temple on the three Pilgramage Feasts, including any Pagans or Jews, but what the sacrifices would be is the question.
Any Jew with Yehoshua in his face would be insane to deny Him, and therefore will be Messianic Jews, and not in need of a sacrifice for sin. The pagans wouldn't be allowed in the Temple anyway (or at least not past the outer court), so I wonder who would be sacrificing for sin at that time. To remember Yehoshua's sacrifice, perhaps, and for some nice roast lamb, or in thanksgiving to Yehoshua for His self-sacrifice, and for some nice roast lamb (Yep...have it every Passover! Still, I don't eat for any reason but pleasure.)
At the release of haSatan from the pit, for one last hurrah, only non-believers will be gathering on the Adversary's side at that Gog Magog fight, and they would not be living in Israel. So I just don't see sacrifice for sin at all after Yehoshua returns. Certainly for the re-dedication of the 3rd Temple, if it is still standing, we will need a Red Heifer, just as we will to consecrate a newly built Temple in the soon coming times. And I love roast beef too!
Always good to meet another carnivore! Especially in these times of rampant veganism and other false feast etiquettologies! A good steak knife is de reguer at any properly set table! Except when there's fried chicken, of course ...  . You are getting into some areas of eschatology which, while I understand them differently, it may take some time for me to look into why. As I said, it isn't one of my strong suits. And I could be wrong ... not likely, LOL! (I had to throw that in.)  I'll get back to you when I'm better scripturally prepared, if that's ok. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 8, 2014 21:38:52 GMT -8
I think that a Millennial period with a Temple will have sacrifices in it, naturally. I think that there will offerings of grain at First Fruits, but am unsure of whether we will be celebrating Passover, or just Unleavened Bread. I don't see any reason why not to have Blood Sacrifices, as a remembrance, or celebration...if that is how it is stated, and mandated. I would want Yehoshua's ruling on that, were I walking into the Kingdom as a newly believing Jew. We current Messianic Beleivers will not even be in corruptible flesh at the time, but I'd still like a good lamb dinner.
Everyone will come up to the Temple on the three Pilgramage Feasts, including any Pagans or Jews, but what the sacrifices would be is the question.
Any Jew with Yehoshua in his face would be insane to deny Him, and therefore will be Messianic Jews, and not in need of a sacrifice for sin. The pagans wouldn't be allowed in the Temple anyway (or at least not past the outer court), so I wonder who would be sacrificing for sin at that time. To remember Yehoshua's sacrifice, perhaps, and for some nice roast lamb, or in thanksgiving to Yehoshua for His self-sacrifice, and for some nice roast lamb (Yep...have it every Passover! Still, I don't eat for any reason but pleasure.)
At the release of haSatan from the pit, for one last hurrah, only non-believers will be gathering on the Adversary's side at that Gog Magog fight, and they would not be living in Israel. So I just don't see sacrifice for sin at all after Yehoshua returns. Certainly for the re-dedication of the 3rd Temple, if it is still standing, we will need a Red Heifer, just as we will to consecrate a newly built Temple in the soon coming times. And I love roast beef too!
Always good to meet another carnivore! Especially in these times of rampant veganism and other false feast etiquettologies! A good steak knife is de reguer at any properly set table! Except when there's fried chicken, of course ... . You are getting into some areas of eschatology which, while I understand them differently, it may take some time for me to look into why. As I said, it isn't one of my strong suits. And I could be wrong ... not likely, LOL! (I had to throw that in.) I'll get back to you when I'm better scripturally prepared, if that's ok. Dan C
I am fascinated by escatology, but I don't like to argue much, so I mostly read a lot of what other people write, rather than continually confront them. I have very clear ideas of what is written there, but I as do not have an agenda, I don't like to do more than explain what I see. But that is the same with all my writing...Abba was very specific to 'Write', echoingly so, but He only lets me know what to write by making it easy. When it doesn't flow, I stop writing. The Ruach is a handy editor, and having little of my own strength, prefer to use His. It makes life sooooo much easier! |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 8, 2014 22:34:36 GMT -8
Of course it's okay! I warn you though, I have spent a lot of time in Revelation...particularly on other forums I have written at in the past, so I am reasonably familiar with those writings. LOL, no problem. Maybe I'll learn something. argument (ˈɑːɡjʊmənt) n
1. a quarrel; altercation
2. a discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate: the argument on birth control will never be concluded.
3. (sometimes plural) a point or series of reasons presented to support or oppose a proposition
4. a summary of the plot or subject of a book, etc
5. (Logic) logic
a. a process of deductive or inductive reasoning that purports to show its conclusion to be true
...There are many meanings of the word "argument," only one being the negative common usage. I like to think we can avoid the negative (despite my recent foray into that domain) and perhaps learn, or at least stimulate thought on the issue at hand. Almost done; I just have to take some pain meds (deep thought always has that effect on me) and clean it up some and I'll have a reply. Agree or not, I hope you'll find it useful. And for the record, I always suspect anyone who agrees with me on everything, although some things I'll defend vehemently. When I put on the Armor of God, I doggone well intend to use it ... hopefully with appropriate discretion. So disagree all you want. We'll both have a thousand years to laugh at our ideas! Dan C edit: had to change that "by golly" as this is swearing by a pagan god. Phooey! My pagan past catches up to me again! |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 8, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -8
Of course it's okay! I warn you though, I have spent a lot of time in Revelation...particularly on other forums I have written at in the past, so I am reasonably familiar with those writings. LOL, no problem. Maybe I'll learn something. argument (ˈɑːɡjʊmənt) n
1. a quarrel; altercation
2. a discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate: the argument on birth control will never be concluded.
3. (sometimes plural) a point or series of reasons presented to support or oppose a proposition
4. a summary of the plot or subject of a book, etc
5. (Logic) logic
a. a process of deductive or inductive reasoning that purports to show its conclusion to be true
...There are many meanings of the word "argument," only one being the negative common usage. I like to think we can avoid the negative (despite my recent foray into that domain) and perhaps learn, or at least stimulate thought on the issue at hand. Almost done; I just have to take some pain meds (deep thought always has that effect on me) and clean it up some and I'll have a reply. Agree or not, I hope you'll find it useful. And for the record, I always suspect anyone who agrees with me on everything, although some things I'll defend vehemently. When I put on the Armor of God, I by golly intend to use it ... hopefully with appropriate discretion. So disagree all you want. We'll both have a thousand years to laugh at our ideas! Dan C
I'm sorry deep thinking causes you so much pain...it means to have fun you have to not think...which, now that you mention it, means I need to pick up a novel and stop my deep thinking as well! |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 8, 2014 23:36:00 GMT -8
I think that a Millennial period with a Temple will have sacrifices in it, naturally. I think that there will offerings of grain at First Fruits, but am unsure of whether we will be celebrating Passover, ... Everyone will come up to the Temple on the three Pilgramage Feasts, Well, that sort of answers whether we'll be observing Passover, as it is one of the pilgrimage feasts. It is also one of the most beautiful representations of our faith- if my vote counts with the Almighty, we'll be observing Pesach with more ceremony, more understanding, and more love for Yeshua than we can now imagine! OK, to start from the beginning of the end which is really the beginning of the beginning: There will be a sacrificial system in place during the Third Temple period, because the Antichrist will put a stop to it. Who will be required to take part I’m not sure, other than Jews living in Isra’el during this time. I doubt we would be allowed, but this is just conjecture on my part. Dan 9:27 "He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.""Dan 12:11 "From the time the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."To the issue of sin: Rev 20:1-6 "1 Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven, who had the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years."So, without a deceiver, can there be sin? Well, part of the reason for sacrifices is due to the existence of unintentional sins: Lev 4: 1,2 "ADONAI said to Moshe, "Tell the people of Isra'el: 'If anyone sins inadvertently against any of the mitzvot of ADONAI concerning things which should not be done, if he does any one of them,"And what is the sacrifice for this? Lev 4:3b "he is to offer ADONAI a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he committed." There are many millineal prophecies which say there will be sacrifices of grain and animals in the TNK. Prophesies such as this one: Jer 33:15-18 "When those days come, at that time, I will cause to spring up for David a Branch of Righteousness. He will do what is just and right in the land. When those days come, Y'hudah will be saved, Yerushalayim will live in safety, and the name given to her will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our Righteousness]." For this is what ADONAI says: "There will never be cut off from David a man to occupy the throne of the house of Isra'el. Nor will there ever be cut off from the cohanim who are L'vi'im a man before me to offer burnt offerings, burn grain offerings and offer sacrifices every day.""
Ezekiel 43:18-27 gives the best description I know of both the manner and reason for the sacrifices in the Millineal Temple: "18 He said to me, "Human being, Adonai ELOHIM says, 'These are the regulations for the altar when the time comes to construct it, offer burnt offerings on it and splash the blood against it: 19 you are to give to the cohanim, who are L'vi'im descended from Tzadok and who approach to serve me,' says Adonai ELOHIM, 'a young bull as a sin offering. 20 You are to take its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge and on the molding all the way around; this is how you will purify it and make atonement for it. 21 You are also to take the bull which is the sin offering and have it burned up at the designated place [on the grounds] of the house, outside the sanctuary. 22 On the second day you are to offer a male goat without defect as a sin offering, and they are to purify the altar as they purified it with the bull. 23 When you have finished purifying it, you are to offer a young bull without defect and a ram from the flock without defect. 24 You are to present them before ADONAI, and the cohanim will throw salt on them and offer them as a burnt offering to ADONAI. 25 Every day, for seven days, you are to prepare a goat as a sin offering; they are also to prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock without defect. 26 For seven days, they are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; in this way they are to consecrate it. 27 When these days are over, then, on the eighth day and afterwards, the cohanim will present your burnt offerings on the altar and your peace offerings; and I will accept you,' says Adonai ELOHIM.""Incidentally, the primary reason for the sacrifices in the TNK is always for the cleansing of the Temple of the accumulated sins of the nation. If it were ever to become too polluted, the Sh'kinah could not reside there and Adonai would leave, turning His face from Yisra'el, His people. We see this happen time and again when Elohim judges the nation. I know, we'll have Yeshua instead of the Sh'kinah, however I doubt He'd want to live with a polluted Temple either. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will be maintained spotlessly clean of sins! Zechariah 13:8-9 In time, throughout that land," says ADONAI, "two-thirds of those in it will be destroyed - they will die, but one-third will remain. That third part I will bring through the fire; I will refine them as silver is refined, I will test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'This is my people' and they will say, 'ADONAI is my God.'"I interpret this to mean the remnant of the Jews will be saved. So yes, we agree on this. However I’d say they come to this before they have Yeshua in their faces. But that is a minor point next to their salvation being real. From personal experience, again I all too often see the devil on my tail before I start looking toward the throne of the Almighty! I can see the Jews being the same way, going through the fire before the hardness in their hearts breaks and they fulfill the words of Yeshua in Luke 13:35b, I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of ADONAI!'"The following verses are not conclusive, but they lead me to believe that there will be sin in the Millineal reign: Jeremiah 23:5-6 ""The days are coming," says ADONAI when I will raise a righteous Branch for David. He will reign as king and succeed, he will do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Y'hudah will be saved, Isra'el will live in safety, and the name given to him will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our righteousness]."
Isaiah 1:26 "I will restore your judges as at first and your advisers as at the beginning. After that, you will be called the City of Righteousness, Faithful City. & Matthew 19:28, speaking to His talmidim, "Yeshua said to them, "Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra'el." If there is no sin, why would anyone need to be ruled with a rod of iron? Why the need for judges? Would this be just for the unintentional sins, as I gave reference for above? Possibly ... however, wherever there are beings with free will there is the inevitability of conflict. Witness the war in the heavens and the fall of ha satan. And they had been with God! Heck fire, Adam sinned and the only one he had any conflict with was God Himself! Too bad he (and for that matter me) didn't have the conflict with that sorry serpent! Certainly the nations will need ruling: Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down nations - "He will rule them with a staff of iron." It is he who treads the winepress from which flows the wine of the furious rage of ADONAI, God of heaven's armies."Ah, the end of all this. I can give up my muzzle loader, my motorcycle, and anything else of this world if it means the end of suffering- mine and everyone else's. But I do pray for many Jews that they will accept Yeshua before it is too late. I pray for them also that if they do not, they will be in the remnant who is saved, even though it means going through the fire. But I also pray for loved ones that they too will accept Yeshua and walk in His ways- His true ways! For all of us I pray for truth and understanding! There's little enough of this to go around. But hey. we're trying! Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 9, 2014 16:53:51 GMT -8
I think that a Millennial period with a Temple will have sacrifices in it, naturally. I think that there will offerings of grain at First Fruits, but am unsure of whether we will be celebrating Passover, ... Everyone will come up to the Temple on the three Pilgrimage Feasts, Well, that sort of answers whether we'll be observing Passover, as it is one of the pilgrimage feasts. It is also one of the most beautiful representations of our faith- if my vote counts with the Almighty, we'll be observing Pesach with more ceremony, more understanding, and more love for Yeshua than we can now imagine!
Since the Gentiles are required to come up to the Temple three times a year, or face a complete lack of rain to water their crops and refill their aquifers, I have no doubt that the Gentiles will be allowed to come into the outer court (which, if you recall is limitless in size, in order to accommodate all who will want to see the Temple, and then hand off their sacrifice to a deputy for sacrifice.There will be a sacrificial system in place during the Third Temple period, because the Antichrist will put a stop to it. Who will be required to take part I’m not sure, other than Jews living in Isra’el during this time. I doubt we would be allowed, but this is just conjecture on my part. Dan 9:27 “He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.""Dan 12:11 “From the time the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."
I can’t see any observant Jew actually doing that, but they would have to be well taught by the Two Witnesses what is about to happen, and that will also require the 144,000 to be very active. It will be a noisy time, I think, full of street preaching in every corner of Jerusalem, while everyone that can will be coming to Israel to see the Temple. I also see all the demonstrators making a huge furor over all that sacrificing of animals, and camera crews everywhere.
My one difficulty in seeing what the Antichrist might do is in regards to the Temple worship of someone other than himself…I suppose he will only be suffering the worship of YHVH in order to maximize the damage he will do when he proclaims himself to be G-d, and requires worship on pain of death.To the issue of sin: Rev 20:1-6 "1 Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven, who had the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years."So, without a deceiver, can there be sin? Well, part of the reason for sacrifices is due to the existence of unintentional sins: Lev 4: 1, 2 “ADONAI said to Moshe, "Tell the people of Isra'el: 'If anyone sins inadvertently against any of the mitzvot of ADONAI concerning things which should not be done, if he does any one of them,"And what is the sacrifice for this? Lev 4:3b “he is to offer ADONAI a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he committed."
As to requiring a deceiver to convince men to sin…we don’t need convincing. We sin daily, and naturally, even when no one is troubling us and we are attempting not to sin. The point remains whether Messianic Believers need to make any sacrifice for sin, since their redemption is assured in Yehoshua. And then there is a problem for those of us that are also not Jewish, however Messianic and Observant.
Those that are Messianic/Christian Believers that are bearing fruit, but not entirely Observant, either from conviction or ignorance, if a sacrifice could do more for them than Yehoshua, it would have to be told them BY Yehoshua for it to be believed. I would have to be firmly convinced by the Ruach haKodesh of the necessity for such a sacrifice. There are many millennial prophecies which say there will be sacrifices of grain and animals in the TNK. Prophesies such as this one: Jer 33:15-18 "When those days come, at that time, I will cause to spring up for David a Branch of Righteousness. He will do what is just and right in the land. When those days come, Y'hudah will be saved, Yerushalayim will live in safety, and the name given to her will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our Righteousness]." For this is what ADONAI says: "There will never be cut off from David a man to occupy the throne of the house of Isra'el. Nor will there ever be cut off from the cohanim who are L'vi'im a man before me to offer burnt offerings, burn grain offerings and offer sacrifices every day.""Ezekiel 43:18-27 gives the best description I know of both the manner and reason for the sacrifices in the Millennial Temple: "18 He said to me, "Human being, Adonai ELOHIM says, 'These are the regulations for the altar when the time comes to construct it, offer burnt offerings on it and splash the blood against it: 19 you are to give to the cohanim, who are L'vi'im descended from Tzadok and who approach to serve me,' says Adonai ELOHIM, 'a young bull as a sin offering. 20 You are to take its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge and on the molding all the way around; this is how you will purify it and make atonement for it. 21 You are also to take the bull which is the sin offering and have it burned up at the designated place [on the grounds] of the house, outside the sanctuary. 22 On the second day you are to offer a male goat without defect as a sin offering, and they are to purify the altar as they purified it with the bull. 23 When you have finished purifying it, you are to offer a young bull without defect and a ram from the flock without defect. 24 You are to present them before ADONAI, and the cohanim will throw salt on them and offer them as a burnt offering to ADONAI. 25 Every day, for seven days, you are to prepare a goat as a sin offering; they are also to prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock without defect. 26 For seven days, they are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; in this way they are to consecrate it. 27 When these days are over, then, on the eighth day and afterwards, the cohanim will present your burnt offerings on the altar and your peace offerings; and I will accept you,' says Adonai ELOHIM."" Incidentally, the primary reason for the sacrifices in the TNK is always for the cleansing of the Temple of the accumulated sins of the nation. If it were ever to become too polluted, the Sh'kinah could not reside there and Adonai would leave, turning His face from Yisra'el, His people. We see this happen time and again when Elohim judges the nation. I know, we'll have Yeshua instead of the Sh'kinah, however I doubt He'd want to live with a polluted Temple either. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will be maintained spotlessly clean of sins! Those Jews that are alive at Yehoshua’s coming mourn at not recognizing Him before, and they cannot have salvation without Him. They can be wonderfully Observant, and still miss the mark, as the was given not just as a way to live and love YHVH, but to expose the sins of humans that cannot, in all their effort, be cleansed by the blood of bullocks and rams. They still have to repent…turn again to YHVH, and correct their ways, but they do this in trust that YHVH will accept it, and their faith is not enough now that Yehoshua is come and has died for us.
After Yehoshua’s death, those Jews that refused Yehoshua were/are in very dangerous territory, yet before His death there were doing all that could be done, and YHVH said that if they would turn to Him, and repent, they would be gathered to His bosom, just as a wife is forgiven her folly by a Wise Husband, which YHVH has been to the Jews, and which all Believers in Yehoshua now are part of as we have been grafted into the Vine of Israel. The following verses are not conclusive, but they lead me to believe that there will be sin in the Millennial reign: Jeremiah 23:5-6 ""The days are coming," says ADONAI when I will raise a righteous Branch for David. He will reign as king and succeed; he will do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Y'hudah will be saved, Isra'el will live in safety, and the name given to him will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our righteousness]."
Isaiah 1:26 “I will restore your judges as at first and your advisers as at the beginning. After that, you will be called the City of Righteousness, Faithful City. & Matthew 19:28, speaking to His talmidim, "Yeshua said to them, "Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra'el." If there is no sin, why would anyone need to be ruled with a rod of iron? Why the need for judges? Would this be just for the unintentional sins, as I gave reference for above? Possibly ... however, wherever there are beings with free will there is the inevitability of conflict. Witness the war in the heavens and the fall of ha Satan. And they had been with God! Heck fire, Adam sinned and the only one he had any conflict with was God Himself! Too bad he (and for that matter me) didn't have the conflict with that sorry serpent! Certainly the nations will need ruling: Revelation 19:15 “And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down nations - "He will rule them with a staff of iron." It is he who treads the winepress from which flows the wine of the furious rage of ADONAI, God of heaven's armies."
As for the Nations, including Israel, there will be need for Judges, but mainly for civil enforcement of the laws, global and local. Enforcement of civil law and that iron fist is the incorruptible government force of transfigurated Believers.
In Israel, all will no doubt be done according to the , as guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Judges, as much of the government will most like be Messianic Believers that are no longer in corruptible human form. With a vast workforce of ‘Incorruptible’ Believers, how else would Yehoshua have a worldwide government where that Iron Fist of law can be kept, without any possibility of corruption and cronyism? There would not even be taxes for the support of any government bureaucracy, merely for the safety net that the Temple provided those that were orphaned, widowed, and disabled.
I can easily see a network of Temple offices for the solving of those problems, and each village and city being given teacher and judges to handle local matters, manned by the ‘Incorruptible’.
There will be a lot of Messianic Believers to be used for everything from the DMV to the local Universities, from a school crossing Guard to the gatekeepers at the gates of the Jerusalem. I think there will be nationalization of every utility and resource, complete with the Sh’mitta and Jubilees, at least in Israel, but I see international commerce and banking being included in the iron fist of Yehoshua.
But every country will have the same. The difference between the living Messianic Believers at that time and your average non-Messianic type of any belief system will be that they are walking after their own gods, and are allowed to.
*I use the word ‘Incorruptible’ to refer to those that are Messianic now, but will be changed when Yehoshua returns. I pray to be one of the Judges or Teachers in a small village of no more than 50 families, so that I may get to know all of them well before that group multiplies its members…but if I can just be the crossing guard at the school, and then study all the stuff I want to learn in between, I will be quite happy with that. Or anything really…I just want to be there and be a part of it all.Ah, the end of all this. I can give up my muzzle loader, my motorcycle, and anything else of this world if it means the end of suffering- mine and everyone else's. But I do pray for many Jews that they will accept Yeshua before it is too late. I pray for them also that if they do not, they will be in the remnant who is saved, even though it means going through the fire. But I also pray for loved ones that they too will accept Yeshua and walk in His ways- His true ways! For all of us I pray for truth and understanding! There's little enough of this to go around. But hey. we're trying! Dan C
I don’t see any need to give up a motorcycle, though. Undoubtedly there will be new sources of fuel, and better means of using resources and making them into fun things to enjoy...after the first cleanup of the world is done, and a new civilization created. I just want a body in which I can go snow skiing again, and to be able to run with the humans, and not hurt and to have the boundless energy of youth returned to me to carry out G-ds purposes, and to learn all there is to know. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 9, 2014 20:00:33 GMT -8
#&%@!!! ... and other questionable terms!!! This is the second long, fairly involved reply I have written that has been DUMPED into the cosmic trash receptacle- a black hole so dense that my Auntie Matter says no scrap has ever been retrieved therefrom! So I'm just gonna say "thanks for the thoughtful reply" and move on. I'd respond in kind, but I' kind of getting frustrated now.  Dan (grubble-grubble) C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 10, 2014 7:15:35 GMT -8
… I cannot really see any Messianic Jew at that time offering a lamb for redemption, as they are already redeemed by Yehoshua. … In a sense, those before Yeshua were already redeemed as well. They didn’t just look forward, they did so in faith, trusting YHVH that He would send the Redeemer. I know it’s splitting hairs, but just something to think about. …, I have no doubt that the Gentiles will be allowed to come into the outer court (which, if you recall is limitless in size, in order to accommodate all who will want to see the Temple) … No doubt you are correct. I can imagine that once the image is set up in the Holy of Holies, everyone in Israel…particularly every Jew that takes the Mark will be required to file through the Temple, and to bow down to the image. HaSatan will want the maximum worship with the maximum desecration of the Temple, and the maximum humiliation of the Jews. … My one difficulty in seeing what the Antichrist might do is in regards to the Temple worship of someone other than himself…I suppose he will only be suffering the worship of YHVH in order to maximize the damage he will do when he proclaims himself to be G-d, and requires worship on pain of death. He’ll allow regular worship until he is fully established and the time is right. The enemy is patient, crafty in the beginning. His weakness is also his greatest strength when dealing with us as individuals. My AoG pastor has a saying, “Sin will always take you farther than you ever wanted to go.” I think that is true of ha satan as well. He had Hitler set up to dominate the world, and in the beginning it looked like he might pull it off. But we all know how that story ended, as in the end he bit off more than Germany could chew. It may be very different in the beginning of the worship at the 3rd Temple as opposed to what happens after Yehoshua returns. We have no idea how much things change when Yehoshua is ruling the planet. I am sure quite a bit. As to requiring a deceiver to convince men to sin…we don’t need convincing. We sin daily, and naturally, even when no one is troubling us and we are attempting not to sin. The point remains whether Messianic Believers need to make any sacrifice for sin, since their redemption is assured in Yehoshua. And then there is a problem for those of us that are also not Jewish, however Messianic and Observant. It is the blood of the sacrifice, as discussed earlier, which cleanses the Temple of the accumulated sins of the nation- even unintentional sins, let alone the ones done on purpose. Those that are Messianic/Christian Believers that are bearing fruit, but not entirely Observant, either from conviction or ignorance, if a sacrifice could do more for them than Yehoshua, it would have to be told them BY Yehoshua for it to be believed. I would have to be firmly convinced by the Ruach haKodesh of the necessity for such a sacrifice. It is impossible that anything could do more for anyone than what Yeshua has done. Ex 12: 49 “The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."
Num 15:16 “The same and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.'"Everyone will be under the same covenant system and obligations, just as all believers are now. Are ‘sacrifices’ of necessity animal in nature? And are such sacrifices more than for honoring G-d, and cleansing the Temple of the accumulated sins of the Israelites? That would be more like David’s offering of so many animal’s daily for the same reasons. Repentance is something we will all be doing until the Bema, and sacrifices a valuable sign of this, but surely not a blood offering for sin for Messianic Believers if Yehoshua has already been the perfect and final offering for sin? This is one of those mainstream doctrines we all tend to hold onto, that “ Jesus was the final offering for sin.” Yeshua was not the “ final” offering, He was the only offering for sin. Heb 10:4 “For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.”Those Jews that are alive at Yehoshua’s coming mourn at not recognizing Him before, and they cannot have salvation without Him. They can be wonderfully Observant, and still miss the mark, as the was given not just as a way to live and love YHVH, but to expose the sins of humans that cannot, in all their effort, be cleansed by the blood of bullocks and rams. They still have to repent…turn again to YHVH, and correct their ways, but they do this in trust that YHVH will accept it, and their faith is not enough now that Yehoshua is come and has died for us. After Yehoshua’s death, those Jews that refused Yehoshua were/are in very dangerous territory, yet before His death there were doing all that could be done, and YHVH said that if they would turn to Him, and repent, they would be gathered to His bosom, just as a wife is forgiven her folly by a Wise Husband, which YHVH has been to the Jews, and which all Believers in Yehoshua now are part of as we have been grafted into the Vine of Israel. All true. Remember that at the time, most of Yisra’el probably did follow Yeshua. We tend to look at the Jews today and apply the same standard and say very few followed Yeshua. It’s human nature to judge everyone else by the standards you are familiar with. But part of the reason I am Messianic is I came to the belief and understanding that things were very much different when the books of the Bible were written; furthermore these books were written by a specific people and for that same specific people. That I can benefit from it is almost an afterthought (thankfully the afterthoughts of the Almighty are powerful to save!). The plan was always “To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.” The world is saved because of the light of God’s truth as shown to us through Yisra’el! So if I truly want to understand God’s saving grace, I do not need to be in a mainC grace preaching church- I need to be looking in the Word through the eyes of a newly freed Hebrew, of a Hebrew being led into captivity in Babylon, of a young Hebrew boy facing a giant, of a deciple camped on the road with Yeshua, and of a first century Jew forced to leave Yisra’el and reading one of Sha’ul’s letters while making a new life in Macedonia. Otherwise my reference, and thus my understanding is way off the mark. The mainC idea that those letters were meant for everyone is flawed. Yes, they are good for instruction throughout the ages. But only if you know they were written only to Jews in specific time periods and circumstances. On the other hand, God does not change. I have to believe His sacrificial system will be the same, and for the same reasons. We draw closer to God as both we and the Temple are set apart by the blood of the korban. But our salvation still comes from the only acceptable sacrifice that could truly cleanse us of our sins, that of Yeshua. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 10, 2014 13:35:44 GMT -8
#&%@!!! ... and other questionable terms!!! This is the second long, fairly involved reply I have written that has been DUMPED into the cosmic trash receptacle- a black hole so dense that my Auntie Matter says no scrap has ever been retrieved therefrom! So I'm just gonna say "thanks for the thoughtful reply" and move on. I'd respond in kind, but I' kind of getting frustrated now. Dan (grubble-grubble) C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on May 10, 2014 14:49:56 GMT -8
Those Jews that are alive at Yehoshua’s coming mourn at not recognizing Him before, and they cannot have salvation without Him. They can be wonderfully Observant, and still miss the mark, as the was given not just as a way to live and love YHVH, but to expose the sins of humans that cannot, in all their effort, be cleansed by the blood of bullocks and rams. They still have to repent…turn again to YHVH, and correct their ways, but they do this in trust that YHVH will accept it, and their faith is not enough now that Yehoshua is come and has died for us. After Yehoshua’s death, those Jews that refused Yehoshua were/are in very dangerous territory, yet before His death there were doing all that could be done, and YHVH said that if they would turn to Him, and repent, they would be gathered to His bosom, just as a wife is forgiven her folly by a Wise Husband, which YHVH has been to the Jews, and which all Believers in Yehoshua now are part of as we have been grafted into the Vine of Israel. All true. Remember that at the time, most of Yisra’el probably did follow Yeshua. We tend to look at the Jews today and apply the same standard and say very few followed Yeshua.
Being a Nazarene did not make you less Jewish…in fact, it probably made you more so, since the letter of the law was joined by the heart of the law. Once there was more acceptance of the new party within the greater conclave of Judaism, many more people might have adhered to Yehoshua…at least until the Temple fell.
There was considerable dislike for the Messianic Jews that escaped to Pella at the time of the destruction of the Temple, and they were considered traitors, while after Bar Kochba, it was even worse.
Then you have the 2nd and 3rd generation Christian Church beginning to push away the Jewishness of the religion as a matter of politics, in Judea, and all of the Roman Empire, so again you would have less Jewish adherence to Yehoshua. Being Messianic at that time was less of a religious difference than a political one, first in Judea, and then everywhere.It’s human nature to judge everyone else by the standards you are familiar with. But part of the reason I am Messianic is I came to the belief and understanding that things were very much different when the books of the Bible were written; furthermore these books were written by a specific people and for that same specific people. That I can benefit from it is almost an afterthought (thankfully the afterthoughts of the Almighty are powerful to save!).
For me, the Believers under the Apostles are the key to what was really being taught…Jews, being shown that Yehoshua was everywhere in their Scriptures…well before anyone was writing down the Brit Chadashah, and the gentiles learning as they always had...by listening to the Jews, at the back of the synagogue. The plan was always “To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.” The world is saved because of the light of God’s truth as shown to us through Yisra’el! So if I truly want to understand God’s saving grace, I do not need to be in a mainC grace preaching church- I need to be looking in the Word through the eyes of a newly freed Hebrew, of a Hebrew being led into captivity in Babylon, of a young Hebrew boy facing a giant, of a deciple camped on the road with Yeshua, and of a first century Jew forced to leave Yisra’el and reading one of Sha’ul’s letters while making a new life in Macedonia. Otherwise my reference, and thus my understanding is way off the mark.
But that too is far off from that very first going forth of the Gospel, although the Ten Commandments were kept very strictly, except for that habit of keeping Shabbat on the wrong day. Naturally they had left the moedim behind, but they were at least doing some things well...while they did a lot of ill.
But that ‘best’ church never returned to the original basis of Scriptural thought, and still persecuted anyone that was Jewish. And though there are always some through the centuries that have not hated the Jews, neither have they wanted to learn from them…and that is a big mistake.The mainC idea that those letters were meant for everyone is flawed. Yes, they are good for instruction throughout the ages. But only if you know they were written only to Jews in specific time periods and circumstances.
Letters on how the communities must be organized, and so forth show that there was a distinction made in many places between the Jews of the Synagogue, and the Jews and Gentiles of the newer assembly.
Messianic Judaism of the time was more a frame of mind for the Jews involved...a deeper, richer walk with Abba…I doubt that the Synagogues were instantly telling Messianics to leave, but as time went on, if everyone was working out of the Synagogues, the local Rabbi would have all of that in hand already, and with the Rabbi’s well trained in the , the adding of the Gospel would be relatively a minor change.
That was not the case at the time of the letters. Those went to mixed groups, who were struggling to not go off track. Consider the Letters to the Churches in Revelation...they spoke clearly to all the problems they were facing, and how much they were falling down on the job. Again, a well run Synagogue would not be having that kind of trouble, and those letters from Yehoshua in Revelation spoke to a lot of problems. Why would Jews that were brought up in full observation of be having so much trouble...while gentiles at those Synagogues would be learning observation of ? On the other hand, God does not change. I have to believe His sacrificial system will be the same, and for the same reasons. We draw closer to God as both we and the Temple are set apart by the blood of the korban. But our salvation still comes from the only acceptable sacrifice that could truly cleanse us of our sins, that of Yeshua. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 11, 2014 8:20:51 GMT -8
I doubt that ‘most of Yisra’el’ followed Yehoshua. It is very true however that they had a sizable enough community, and were well accepted, so much that the Sanhedrin, once James was gone, were not as worried about the Nazarene Way at the time, or there would be more record of it in Josephus.
Being a Nazarene did not make you less Jewish…in fact, it probably made you more so, since the letter of the law was joined by the heart of the law. Once there was more acceptance of the new party within the greater conclave of Judaism, many more people might have adhered to Yehoshua…at least until the Temple fell.
There was considerable dislike for the Messianic Jews that escaped to Pella at the time of the destruction of the Temple, and they were considered traitors, while after Bar Kochba, it was even worse.
Then you have the 2nd and 3rd generation Christian Church beginning to push away the Jewishness of the religion as a matter of politics, in Judea, and all of the Roman Empire, so again you would have less Jewish adherence to Yehoshua. Being Messianic at that time was less of a religious difference than a political one, first in Judea, and then everywhere.I've heard estimates of from @ 2/3 followed Yeshua to less than a quarter. The lower estimates tend to come from Christian sources, many who believe that very few Jews followed Yeshua. I admit, it's a matter of preference since I forgot to take a cencus back then  , but I like to go with the more optimistic Messianic sources. Definitely agree that since the Ressurection, any Jew who believes in Yeshua is a Jew twice over, more Jewish than his contemporaries by far. I think we need to make a distinction between the early Christian church and the Nazarim. The 2nd generation Christian church was beginning to persecute the Nazarim because they were trying to (and were eventually successful at) coopt the name of Yeshua into their own pagan religion. All of the "early church fathers" were entirely pagan, and had nothing to do with the Nazarim, who remained basically Jewish in their beliefs and form of worship. We confuse the two because we were taught that the early church was all the believers in Yeshua by mainC doctrines which have still not separated themselves from Catholicism. For me, the Believers under the Apostles are the key to what was really being taught…Jews, being shown that Yehoshua was everywhere in their Scriptures…well before anyone was writing down the Brit Chadashah, and the gentiles learning as they always had...by listening to the Jews, at the back of the synagogue. ... though there are always some through the centuries that have not hated the Jews, neither have they wanted to learn from them…and that is a big mistake.Absolutely agree. They can’t have been written only to the Jews, when the Letters deal so much with why you need faith and trust in Yehoshua, literally proving your adherence to the as well as the Gospel by your obedience.
Letters on how the communities must be organized, and so forth show that there was a distinction made in many places between the Jews of the Synagogue, and the Jews and Gentiles of the newer assembly.
Messianic Judaism of the time was more a frame of mind for the Jews involved...a deeper, richer walk with Abba…I doubt that the Synagogues were instantly telling Messianics to leave, but as time went on, if everyone was working out of the Synagogues, the local Rabbi would have all of that in hand already, and with the Rabbi’s well trained in the , the adding of the Gospel would be relatively a minor change.
That was not the case at the time of the letters. Those went to mixed groups, who were struggling to not go off track. Consider the Letters to the Churches in Revelation...they spoke clearly to all the problems they were facing, and how much they were falling down on the job. Again, a well run Synagogue would not be having that kind of trouble, and those letters from Yehoshua in Revelation spoke to a lot of problems. Why would Jews that were brought up in full observation of be having so much trouble...while gentiles at those Synagogues would be learning observation of ? Actually, most were written to the leadership in what was increasingly becoming Messianic Synagogues. As Gentiles were added simply by their statement of faith the regular synagogues would not have accepted them. Then there is the rift you spoke of at the destruction of the Temple and defeat of Bar Kochba, blamed in part on the Nazarim because they left when required to acknowledge Bar Kochba as Messiah. So the fabrick of Jewish life was being torn apart. Families already separated in the diaspora were further divided by belief. By 100 CE the rabbis had taken a hard line on officially separating Judaism and the Nazarim. Those letters would never have been written to the pagan Christian leadership, and for good reason. We have seen what they did with the ones they did get their hands on. And if they had been written to the congregations, they'd have never survived. What I've been taught is that they went to the leadership, who read them to the congregation but who also copied them and sent them around to others in leadership in other congregations. The troubles you alluded to were inevitable as more Gentiles were added. People do not like to give up their old ways, and thought processes take a couple of generations to change. You had pagans who now believed, but who had been schooled in the Greek mythological methods and who as they grew in numbers would have been agitating for changes to accommodate their thinking. This is the main thread throughout the seven letters in Revelation. And people do tend to form cliques, so divisions were a given there as well. As the Nazarim were being forced out of the regular synagogues, in part because they accepted Gentiles, they were probably more vulnerable to attempts to change their customs and order of service. This, for example, would not have been lost on the Nicolations, educated Greek thinkers who wanted to be in a religious hierarchy of their own design. G-d does not change, indeed. I agree that there will be little changed but the manner of observance (needing correction where flawed, perhaps?), or perhaps the rituals involved, and that is a matter for the cohanim under Yehoshua. And all the Believers that are there in the Kingdom will have the advantage of a High Priest who cannot be in error. What a relief that will be.Yes, it will be nice for a change ...  Dan C |
|
ordains that one lamb was to be offered in the morning and a second lamb in the afternoon (Numbers 28:4). ... These dialy offrings brought atonement to the Jewish nation and renewed the close ties between Hashem and His people. Indeed, the word korban, generally - but erroneously - translated as sacrifice, comes from the root karov, which means coming close. Far from a "sacrifice," a word that implies loss, a korban is a positive thing - a means of drawing close to God."
, but I like to go with the more optimistic Messianic sources.
