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Post by Questor on May 11, 2014 18:09:14 GMT -8
I doubt that ‘most of Yisra’el’ followed Yehoshua. It is very true however that they had a sizable enough community, and were well accepted, so much that the Sanhedrin, once James was gone, were not as worried about the Nazarene Way at the time, or there would be more record of it in Josephus.
Being a Nazarene did not make you less Jewish…in fact, it probably made you more so, since the letter of the law was joined by the heart of the law. Once there was more acceptance of the new party within the greater conclave of Judaism, many more people might have adhered to Yehoshua…at least until the Temple fell.
There was considerable dislike for the Messianic Jews that escaped to Pella at the time of the destruction of the Temple, and they were considered traitors, while after Bar Kochba, it was even worse.
Then you have the 2nd and 3rd generation Christian Church beginning to push away the Jewishness of the religion as a matter of politics, in Judea, and all of the Roman Empire, so again you would have less Jewish adherence to Yehoshua. Being Messianic at that time was less of a religious difference than a political one, first in Judea, and then everywhere. I've heard estimates of from @ 2/3 followed Yeshua to less than a quarter. The lower estimates tend to come from Christian sources, many who believe that very few Jews followed Yeshua. I admit, it's a matter of preference since I forgot to take a cencus back then  , but I like to go with the more optimistic Messianic sources. Definitely agree that since the Ressurection, any Jew who believes in Yeshua is a Jew twice over, more Jewish than his contemporaries by far. I think we need to make a distinction between the early Christian church and the Nazarim. The 2nd generation Christian church was beginning to persecute the Nazarim because they were trying to (and were eventually successful at) coopt the name of Yeshua into their own pagan religion. All of the "early church fathers" were entirely pagan, and had nothing to do with the Nazarim, who remained basically Jewish in their beliefs and form of worship. We confuse the two because we were taught that the early church was all the believers in Yeshua by mainC doctrines which have still not separated themselves from Catholicism. For me, the Believers under the Apostles are the key to what was really being taught…Jews, being shown that Yehoshua was everywhere in their Scriptures…well before anyone was writing down the Brit Chadashah, and the gentiles learning as they always had...by listening to the Jews, at the back of the synagogue. ... though there are always some through the centuries that have not hated the Jews, neither have they wanted to learn from them…and that is a big mistake. Absolutely agree. They can’t have been written only to the Jews, when the Letters deal so much with why you need faith and trust in Yehoshua, literally proving your adherence to the  as well as the Gospel by your obedience.
Letters on how the communities must be organized, and so forth show that there was a distinction made in many places between the Jews of the Synagogue, and the Jews and Gentiles of the newer assembly.
Messianic Judaism of the time was more a frame of mind for the Jews involved...a deeper, richer walk with Abba…I doubt that the Synagogues were instantly telling Messianics to leave, but as time went on, if everyone was working out of the Synagogues, the local Rabbi would have all of that in hand already, and with the Rabbi’s well trained in the , the adding of the Gospel would be relatively a minor change.
That was not the case at the time of the letters. Those went to mixed groups, who were struggling to not go off track. Consider the Letters to the Churches in Revelation...they spoke clearly to all the problems they were facing, and how much they were falling down on the job. Again, a well run Synagogue would not be having that kind of trouble, and those letters from Yehoshua in Revelation spoke to a lot of problems. Why would Jews that were brought up in full observation of be having so much trouble...while gentiles at those Synagogues would be learning observation of ?
Actually, most were written to the leadership in what was increasingly becoming Messianic Synagogues. As Gentiles were added simply by their statement of faith the regular synagogues would not have accepted them. Then there is the rift you spoke of at the destruction of the Temple and defeat of Bar Kochba, blamed in part on the Nazarim because they left when required to acknowledge Bar Kochba as Messiah. So the fabrick of Jewish life was being torn apart. Families already separated in the diaspora were further divided by belief. By 100 CE the rabbis had taken a hard line on officially separating Judaism and the Nazarim.
Those letters would never have been written to the pagan Christian leadership, and for good reason. We have seen what they did with the ones they did get their hands on. And if they had been written to the congregations, they'd have never survived. What I've been taught is that they went to the leadership, who read them to the congregation but who also copied them and sent them around to others in leadership in other congregations.
The troubles you alluded to were inevitable as more Gentiles were added. People do not like to give up their old ways, and thought processes take a couple of generations to change. You had pagans who now believed, but who had been schooled in the Greek mythological methods and who as they grew in numbers would have been agitating for changes to accommodate their thinking. This is the main thread throughout the seven letters in Revelation. And people do tend to form cliques, so divisions were a given there as well.
As the Nazarim were being forced out of the regular synagogues, in part because they accepted Gentiles, they were probably more vulnerable to attempts to change their customs and order of service. This, for example, would not have been lost on the Nicolations, educated Greek thinkers who wanted to be in a religious hierarchy of their own design.
G-d does not change, indeed. I agree that there will be little changed but the manner of observance (needing correction where flawed, perhaps?), or perhaps the rituals involved, and that is a matter for the cohanim under Yehoshua. And all the Believers that are there in the Kingdom will have the advantage of a High Priest who cannot be in error. What a relief that will be.Yes, it will be nice for a change ...  Dan C
I agree that the Letters would always have been sent to leadership first...I just don't think they were only for the leadership, particularly when what was in them was being read aloud to the First Gen Messianics as clarification for their problems in trying to find a way for First Gen MJ's to keep the synagogue a synagogue, and yet explain why there was no specified qualifications for being Observant...like a school of some type, but the Proselytes to Messianic Judaism simply becoming more and more observant until they were ready to become Covenant Keepers under Yehoshua, as opposed to being Covenant Keepers under Moshe. I have always thought that it was the intermarrying of everyone's children that would have brought the First Gen MG's into becoming Covenant Keepers under Moshe.
Still, I have no doubt that the essential Judaism of Messianic Judaism was prominent in First Gen Messianic Synagogues, just as much as going over and over the details of the gospels and the letters, and probably more Judaic in presentation as they began, then losing ground as they grew to be mostly Second Gen MG's by population.
I have no doubt that Shabbat was a difficulty, particularly when the Pagans worked 7 days a week, but hopefully the joy of a day of rest in those very hard working times would persuade many to take that one step fairly easily, just as having new feast days would be welcome, in exchange for the pagan ones they used to keep. It is still a problem for the MainC Beleivers...they may have weekends off, but they do not generally really set aside all of Sunday for a day of rest, much less set themselves apart by doing so on Saturday. Somehow I see the First Gen Messianics as being more interested in becoming Observant...no TV, no football, no mowing the lawn! Trusting YHVH to survive without that seventh day of work must have been a real challenge...just as it is now. It is difficult to give up working when you need it to survive, and when those around you think it's not important yet...it's hard enough to trust YHVH for the missing income when everyone agrees that Shabbat on Saturday is necessary.
I do wish that MainC would understand that Holy and Set Apart is the same expression. Still, I don't think I want to start proclaiming that I am becoming more holy by keeping Shabbat, or being Observant...even though it is technically the truth. However, my being so incredibly bad at obedience keeps me from claiming anything than awareness of blowing it so frequently! I thak YHVH for Yehoshua every time I find myself in error, because in Yehoshua I do not have to feel guilty...just apologize, and do better. Certainly I know that I am much more in error than before "I was trying to come up higher in my walk"(It's is an accurate statement, even though Christianese in derivation...don't throw up on me for using it!. I was still in error...I just didn't know it!
Circumcision of the flesh for First Gen MG's, however, was probably always the dividing point between First Gen Jews and First Gen Messianics, and would have caused the split between First Gen MJ's and MG's as well, particularly for intermarriage. I imagine that they did not treat at anything but a problem for those who did wish to marry...Female MG's have always been taken as wives without problem, although the Mother-in-law would have taught all the Kosher rules of the household, or else no family approval! But a male MG wishing to marry a Female MJ...definitely that would be necessary as a tribal matter...not a religious one. I imagine it is the same in some places, although most American men are Circumcised at birth, and thus really only need to be circumcised in their hearts
Is it any different now? |
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Post by alon on May 11, 2014 21:09:54 GMT -8
A lot is lost to history, however as I understand it MJ's/Natsarim remained pretty strict in their observance at least into the 5th cen. CE. That would include circumcision. It's true Gentiles coming into the faith were brought along slowly. But who knows how common intermarriage was. Yes, the letters were read to, and discussed with the general assemblies. But the addressee was always someone in leadership. And the letters were not passed around. The mainC idea that they were just photocopied and distributed is incorrect. I know, they don't believe that- heck, I grew up in an era when the bulletin was mimeographed- that's how they did it! Seriously, they just don't stop to think about it. The Bible the Bereans used to test everything was the "New Testament", and everybody had one- their own personal scroll! MainC literally does not stop to think that those very letters they were testing WERE what was to become their "New Testament." Writing supplies were hard to come by, were very fragile, and everything had to be hand copied with homemade ink! And a quill that needed frequent sharpening! It was tedious work, so those letters were rare even in the day they were penned. They'd have no more been handed around than they would have been given to one of the pagan church fathers! These are the kinds of simple things I mean when we have to try to put ourselves in the same position and mindset of the time and people; and quit just blithely following the blind guides in mainC who have been so indoctrinated with this silliness they can't see the truth when it is handed to them. Rant over ...  Dan C |
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Post by Questor on May 12, 2014 0:07:54 GMT -8
A lot is lost to history, however as I understand it MJ's/Natsarim remained pretty strict in their observance at least into the 5th cen. CE. That would include circumcision. It's true Gentiles coming into the faith were brought along slowly. But who knows how common intermarriage was. Yes, the letters were read to, and discussed with the general assemblies. But the addressee was always someone in leadership. And the letters were not passed around. The mainC idea that they were just photocopied and distributed is incorrect. I know, they don't believe that- heck, I grew up in an era when the bulletin was mimeographed- that's how they did it! Seriously, they just don't stop to think about it. The Bible the Bereans used to test everything was the "New Testament", and everybody had one- their own personal scroll! MainC literally does not stop to think that those very letters they were testing WERE what was to become their "New Testament." Writing supplies were hard to come by, were very fragile, and everything had to be hand copied with homemade ink! And a quill that needed frequent sharpening! It was tedious work, so those letters were rare even in the day they were penned. They'd have no more been handed around than they would have been given to one of the pagan church fathers! These are the kinds of simple things I mean when we have to try to put ourselves in the same position and mindset of the time and people; and quit just blithely following the blind guides in mainC who have been so indoctrinated with this silliness they can't see the truth when it is handed to them. Rant over ... Dan C
As for mimeographs...didn't you just love the smell of the ink?  |
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Post by alon on May 12, 2014 9:46:57 GMT -8
As for mimeographs...didn't you just love the smell of the ink? And correction fluid ... lol Don't miss the mess, or hammering out the mimeographed message on those large sheets on a manual typewriter. They made them solid, all metal except the roller surface, and with good reason! The plastic typewriters wouldn't have lasted a week. No "cut 'n paste" graphics, either. Those were done manually as well, with a stylus. And you learned real fast to run the sheet through the roller all the way once before starting- halfway through was not the time to learn your alignment was not spot on perfect! Then there was the process of keeping the drum inked properly as you hand-cranked out every bulletin! Ah, those were the days ...  Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 3:39:16 GMT -8
Hi there, as for the question as to whether gentiles will be allowed in the courts of the temple, surely we need to turn to the Law for Guidance. The regulations are quite specific on the peoples that aren't allowed into the congregation. The others need to accept the Covenant, and be circumcised, and baptised into remission of sin. Praise the Lord, he gave us a worthy way of Life thousands of years ago. Jesus liberated Israel in reminding them.
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Post by Questor on May 29, 2014 1:43:26 GMT -8
Hi there, as for the question as to whether gentiles will be allowed in the courts of the temple, surely we need to turn to the Law for Guidance. The regulations are quite specific on the peoples that aren't allowed into the congregation. The others need to accept the Covenant, and be circumcised, and baptised into remission of sin. Praise the Lord, he gave us a worthy way of Life thousands of years ago. Jesus liberated Israel in reminding them.
Outside of the Women's court is the outer court, which is used primarily as a place to teach. Try this link for a 3D visual...it is very impressive.
jerusalem.com/tour/jewish_temple_3D/web This is the 2nd Temple as rendered and updated according to archeological evidence..
Ezekiel 44:6-9 (CJB)
6 You are to tell the rebels, the house of Isra’el, that this is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘House of Isra’el, enough of all your disgusting practices!
7 You brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary and profane it — yes, my house — when you offered my food, the fat and the blood; thus in addition to all your disgusting practices, they broke my covenant.
8 Instead of taking care of my holy things yourselves, you have put these people in charge of my sanctuary.’
9 Here is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘No foreigner, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, is to enter my sanctuary — no foreigner living among the people of Isra’el.
The outer court was open to those who wished to hear the teaching that was done there, foreigners, and proselytes.
Revelation 11:1-2 (CJB)
1 I was given a measuring rod like a stick and told, “Get up, and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count how many people are worshipping there!
2 But the court outside the Temple, leave that out; don’t measure it; because it has been given to the Goyim, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
The 3rd Temple that will be built soon will not have a closed in outer court as the 2nd temple did, but will be open to visitors for teaching. The outer court will encompass the entire mount, including the Mosques already there.
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Post by Questor on May 31, 2014 21:32:57 GMT -8
So why base your vision for the third temple on writings that read like a horror movie. If you truly obey the law and Yeshua's teaching of the Law, surely you realise this book is trying to take people beyond Yeshua's teaching. This is not what the Lord had planned for us.
Very little was even spoken by John in that book given to us by our Savior, and what was said was merely about how he received the visions and statements that actually has a blessing attached to just the mere reading of it! John said what he saw, just as Daniel did about the end of days. The rest is the words of Yehoshua, and I want to know anything that Adonai has said.
As for worrying aobut what is described therein, Believers are meant to study to understand all prophecy, so that we may know the times to prepare for, to be Watchman on the wall for ourselves and for others. Certainly the information is sobering, but it is given as a warning to Believers so they can prepare for what is to come.
But Revelation is not merely about Prophecy, but a lot of information about how Abba thinks, and Yehoshua, and about the 3rd heaven which all of us should find interesting at the least.Revelation 1:1-3 (CJB)
1 This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending his angel to his servant Yochanan,
2 who bore witness to the Word of God and to the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah, as much as he saw.
3 Blessed are the reader and hearers of the words of this prophecy, provided they obey the things written in it! For the time is near!
From your statement, Bongo, it sounds as if you are not very familiar with the Brit Chadashah.
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Post by Questor on May 31, 2014 21:44:06 GMT -8
Hi there, as for the question as to whether gentiles will be allowed in the courts of the temple, surely we need to turn to the Law for Guidance. The regulations are quite specific on the peoples that aren't allowed into the congregation. The others need to accept the Covenant, and be circumcised, and baptised into remission of sin. Praise the Lord, he gave us a worthy way of Life thousands of years ago. Jesus liberated Israel in reminding them.
If you speak merely to obedience of , that is throughout all Scripture, Tanakh and Brit Chadashah and should be a given to any Messianic Believer.
The fact that many MainC Christians are badly taught in their churches is irrelevant...it is still a beginning in a life long walk.
If they were baptised, and received the Ruach, they will be taught by the Ruach. They do need to read the Scriptures to even find that out, true, but the Ruach in them will lead them to the right knowledge and ways if they are willing.
If they are not willing to learn from the Ruach, they end up blaspheming the Ruach, and that is the only unforgivable sin. |
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Post by Questor on May 31, 2014 22:12:26 GMT -8
If we were to not worry about what we would wear or eat , even from day to day, worrying people with the foreboding in 'Revelations' is not the answer.
Worrying about how you are going to get the daily means of life is pointless...if you seek Abba's face, you receive opportunity to make wealth. If you cannot do anything about the circumstances, such as work, you are to trust that Abba will provide for you, and therefore there is no point in fretting yourself over it...it is beyond your control.
However, to be on the watch for danger that is known to be coming is something we are all to do. This is why prophecy is given. We are to know the times of Mashiach's return, so we can warn others of the approaching disasters.
Matthew 6:25-34 (NKJV)
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Original
Language
Transliteration Strongs
Occurrences
חָרָהḥārâ <H2734> 4
רָעַם rā‘am <H7481> 1
קָצַף qāṣap <H7107> 1
Phonetic Pronunciation:khaw-raw'
Root: a primitive root [compare <H2787>]
Cross Reference: TWOT - 736
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Anger, Burning
a primitive root [compare <H2787> (charar)]; to glow or grow warm; figurative (usually) to blaze up, of anger, zeal, jealousy :- be angry, burn, be displeased, × earnestly, fret self, grieve, be (wax) hot, be incensed, kindle, × very, be wroth. See <H8474> (tacharah).Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 17:36:27 GMT -8
I have not amassed wealth. I've not been allowed the opportunity to even make the sort of money that would allow me to get married and support a family. This has been the price of choosing Life and Good over death and evil.
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Post by jimmie on Jun 2, 2014 6:58:26 GMT -8
If you aren’t buck necked living under a tree, you have more than Adam did when he got married.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 5:23:48 GMT -8
If we were to not worry about what we would wear or eat , even from day to day, worrying people with the foreboding in 'Revelations' is not the answer.
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
This is a lovely piece of comfort from the Lord. But as for the rest of the stuff that you simply spouted as opinion.....
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Post by jimmie on Jun 5, 2014 13:18:20 GMT -8
So Adam had everything, until Eva eat him out of house and home.
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Post by Questor on Jun 5, 2014 20:21:39 GMT -8
I have not amassed wealth. I've not been allowed the opportunity to even make the sort of money that would allow me to get married and support a family. This has been the price of choosing Life and Good over death and evil. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 4:27:43 GMT -8
Because my walk has been a trying one. I have been blessed with numerous skills and abilities. The Lord has made sure i can survive. I've been persecuted for my adherence to the Law and the testimony. And now here i get called an idolator. I rarely lay this charge at pagans doors, but it has gotten me persecuted, badly. I left off trying to be a professional musician when i realised what music was really for, and started trying to produce my own line of Djembe drums. Unfortunately i was not able to get funding, because i was considered to be a white man trying to rob the black man. (No honestly, it took me a long time to work it out, but this is about the size of it.) I play Djembe drums to a professional standard, congas and drum kit too. I can post you a toob link if you want. I could make a lot of money in the secular world, but from my experience, my unwillingness to embrace lawlessness means i'm usually sidelined. Very often it has simply been my devotion to sabbath, that has singled me out as an annoyance. (Whats he talking aboot, sabbaths sundear innit.) I skate, was sponsored for longboard decks. My skills with horticulture could make me a small fortune if i lived in colorado.
But thats enough.
Nice to have you as a friend Questor, just don't follow me around too much. lol
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, but I like to go with the more optimistic Messianic sources.
as well as the Gospel by your obedience. 
