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Post by alon on Mar 20, 2014 2:58:40 GMT -8
Wow ... where do I start ... ? You weren't by any chance a Baptist minister, were you Q? 
Most Christians believe if their heart is right, that their actions will flow from it, and to a point they are correct.
Jer 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it?"
This is the problem with feel-good religion, which is most of Christianity; or feel bad religion which pretty much encompasses the rest. It is one reason the pagan mythological method is so popular in the church- our feelings are as fickle as the gods.
They don't think it matters enough to keep them period. Even the ones they say they embrace- how many "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"? Yet they claim to keep the Ten Commandments. And idolatry- you discussed several issues with this, but it is there (except for in the Catholic Bibles. They conveniently deleted that one themselves).
It will never happen, as the two are mutually exclusive. One is based in Judaism, which believes Elohim when He tells them not to do as the pagans, and not to adopt their customs. The other is undeniably rooted in paganism, having come out of the Roman Catholic Church but never separated themselves from its customs, traditions or beliefs for the most part.
Speaking of money, however the principle applies, Mat 6:24 says "No one can be slave to two masters; for he will either hate the first and love the second, or scorn the second and be loyal to the first."
The two can coexist, but can never merge. And while in cases like Ruth and mine, for the sake of our families we can still, to a point, work with and even attend services with Christians, we can never believe like them and MJ at the same time. There is just too much error in their doctrines. And as you pointed out, even their manner of speech is 'nauseating' to even those of us used to hearing it. We all must make a clear choice which path to follow and what we will believe. And if you merge a lie with the truth, all you end up with is a lie.
To quote my Logic prof., "If even one small part of an argument is false, then that argument sucketh in perpetuity." (He was kind of a butt, but he made his point ...)
I no longer will take communion in Christian churches; I won't go to an alter when a Christmas tree or other pagan device is present, even to support my wife; I don't tithe there, and no longer spend money on Christian ministries, nor do I typically (there is one exception in emergent situations) give to their charities; I am getting out of all ministries as my obligations expire, so I don't waste time with them that is better spent on MJ; ... . There are a lot of good people at the AoG church where I go with my wife. And the pastor has some really good takes on scripture which adds to my understanding- AFTER I use a bucketload of discernment on the message. But honestly, I have never been able to worship there. But the coffee is good ...
Sorry, but I gotta disagree with this one.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 20, 2014 19:08:45 GMT -8
Questor, in all fairness there is one place where what you described does exist in various forms: that is the Hebrew Roots movement. However there are several problems endemic of what I said earlier that saturate this movement.
First and foremost, the HR movement is a dung heap of false teachings, bad information, and outright insanity. There is some very good information there, but you must wade through the sewers to get to it.
Even the good (a relative term here) ones have their problems. There is an HR pastor in the Seattle area who I like, named Mark Biltz. He had a very large congregation for a while. I've heard (and am really sorry for him) that they are In trouble now, with membership falling critically. But he is " Light", existing between Christianity and MJ. The problem is that once people have their curiosity sated, they have basically four choices. They can realize they are being exposed to things that remove their excuses before God and either renounce false doctrine and move on to MJ; or they retreat back to mainC and vehemently oppose MJ as Judaizers and heretics. They can stagnate in HR Light, or they move on to any number of insane movements under the HR banner; Sacred Names, Two House, several whose only purpose seems to be to endorse bigamy ... almost any flavor of crazy you can think of. HR is kind of like what Vince Lombardi once said, "Three things can happen whenever you put the ball in the air, and two of them are bad."
Probably most of us start out in HR; I did. But those who make it here recognize the fundamental fact that you can't just partially abandon a lie. "A little leaven" makes the whole lump a lie, and we need the truth, undiluted and inviolate. Many people try to force the issue and mix mainC and MJ, but it only works for as long as you can live with a lie.
Coexisting is a different thing- I can coexist with Christians at the AoG church. But this only works as long as I respect the fact it is their church and beliefs, and it is not my place to go there and set them straight or disrupt their services. Now, if they ask my opinion, all bets are off! But even then I have to consider the consequences of anything I say if it gets back to others- a thing I'm not really very good at yet ... I'm kind of outspoken. But I am learning, although whenever anyone sincerely asks me about something I'll always answer the best I can. However, in retrospect it might not have been the best idea to tell them they should have forcefully removed that visiting pastor from the pulpit ...  ... but they did ask!
Any way we do it, for those of us with ties to mainC that we cannot sever ourselves (such as a spouse who rejects MJ outright), it is a hard thing to stay with MJ. But I cannot abandon the truth for a lie, ANY lie, just so I can more peacefully coexist with my wife, family, or the Assemblies of God.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Mar 21, 2014 18:58:23 GMT -8
Wow ... where do I start ... ? You weren't by any chance a Baptist minister, were you Q? Most Christians believe if their heart is right, that their actions will flow from it, and to a point they are correct. Jer 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it?" This is the problem with feel-good religion, which is most of Christianity; or feel bad religion which pretty much encompasses the rest. It is one reason the pagan mythological method is so popular in the church- our feelings are as fickle as the gods. Yes, and good intentions are not sufficient for Abba or Yeshua to credit those intentions as being equivalent to actually doing those righteous actions that we were commanded to do. I do not know how many times I have heard from someone who is not keeping the that "yes, but my heart is in the right place, and G-d knows that." Well, that is true for salvation, and for obtaining the deposit of the Ruach haKodesh in your that makes the changes so that you will begin to want to please YHVH, but just because you want to be walking a good walk does not mean you are walking a good walk.
They don't think it matters enough to keep them period. Even the ones they say they embrace- how many "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"? Yet they claim to keep the Ten Commandments. And idolatry- you discussed several issues with this, but it is there (except for in the Catholic Bibles. They conveniently deleted that one themselves).
They need not take on the Jewish culture and societal rules that help Jews keep the , but they do need to follow the to the best of their capability. That means no images or altars in a church to bow down to...not even in a representational sense. It also means taking Shabbat seriously, and the feasts, and other laws where they concern you, as soon as you can figure out how to add them to your life.
It would be very much easier for me to be observant if I lived where there was a Messianic Jewish community, and could have the cultural support of other observant Believers...not to pretend a Jewish identity that I do not have, but to be in tune with those around me. But I live in an area where there are no Jews that would accept me as being Messianic anything, and instead am surrounded by those of the Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran and Mormon traditions, who think it strange in me to be observant. What influence I have with my friends is very small, and limited to merely explaining what it is that I do, and why, without denigrating their beliefs. It will never happen, as the two are mutually exclusive. One is based in Judaism, which believes Elohim when He tells them not to do as the pagans, and not to adopt their customs. The other is undeniably rooted in paganism, having come out of the Roman Catholic Church but never separated themselves from its customs, traditions or beliefs for the most part. Speaking of money, however the principle applies, Mat 6:24 says "No one can be slave to two masters; for he will either hate the first and love the second, or scorn the second and be loyal to the first."
This is another reformation of the Christian Church I am talking about...one that would allow people to be who they are, except in those matters where YHVH or Yeshua have spoken. A truly Messianic Assembly...one that follows what is written in the Scriptures, and leaves the cultural matters on how you do what is written in the Scriptures to the family group you live within, while indulgently allowing others G-d's grace to live to their conscience and the Ruach haKodesh. But the Messianic assembly that I see requires there to be a great deal of acceptance that other people's lives are theirs to live, and adapt within...that the Believer's duty is to their G-d's requirements before it is to man's requirements. It would require that it's members be adaptable to each other without condemnation for not doing things exactly as another does it.The two can coexist, but can never merge. And while in cases like Ruth and mine, for the sake of our families we can still, to a point, work with and even attend services with Christians, we can never believe like them and MJ at the same time. There is just too much error in their doctrines. And as you pointed out, even their manner of speech is 'nauseating' to even those of us used to hearing it. We all must make a clear choice which path to follow and what we will believe. And if you merge a lie with the truth, all you end up with is a lie. To quote my Logic prof., "If even one small part of an argument is false, then that argument sucketh in perpetuity." (He was kind of a butt, but he made his point ...) I no longer will take communion in Christian churches; I won't go to an alter when a Christmas tree or other pagan device is present, even to support my wife; I don't tithe there, and no longer spend money on Christian ministries, nor do I typically (there is one exception in emergent situations) give to their charities; I am getting out of all ministries as my obligations expire, so I don't waste time with them that is better spent on MJ; ... . There are a lot of good people at the AoG church where I go with my wife. And the pastor has some really good takes on scripture which adds to my understanding- AFTER I use a bucketload of discernment on the message. But honestly, I have never been able to worship there. But the coffee is good ... Sorry, but I gotta disagree with this one. Dan C
The language of Christianese is a problem, yet it is always best to speak to someone in their own language, no matter how difficult, particularly when you want to be understood. Messianic Believers need to learn to speak in terms of the Old Covenant within the Renewed Covenant, and speak the truth gently to those that are walking in unrighteousness...using the Brit Chadashah to do so when speaking to Christians. And all Believers should recall that it was Yeshua who showed the Jews what the heart of the law is, and speak of how we are to walk as Believers with the Ruach haKodesh guiding us.
What you do not yet see is that Messianic Believers have a debt to Christianity that needs to be paid back in right teaching to the Christians, just as Messianic Judaism has a debt to Jews to be paid back in right teaching to the Jews. Both Jews and Christians are stuck in their own ways of living and thinking, and need something from Messianic Believers that is currently not being offered...an understanding heart. |
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Post by Questor on Mar 21, 2014 20:13:31 GMT -8
Questor, in all fairness there is one place where what you described does exist in various forms: that is the Hebrew Roots movement. However there are several problems endemic of what I said earlier that saturate this movement. First and foremost, the HR movement is a dung heap of false teachings, bad information, and outright insanity. There is some very good information there, but you must wade through the sewers to get to it. Even the good (a relative term here) ones have their problems. There is an HR pastor in the Seattle area who I like, named Mark Biltz. He had a very large congregation for a while. I've heard (and am really sorry for him) that they are In trouble now, with membership falling critically. But he is " Light", existing between Christianity and MJ. The problem is that once people have their curiosity sated, they have basically four choices. They can realize they are being exposed to things that remove their excuses before God and either renounce false doctrine and move on to MJ; or they retreat back to mainC and vehemently oppose MJ as Judaizers and heretics. They can stagnate in HR Light, or they move on to any number of insane movements under the HR banner; Sacred Names, Two House, several whose only purpose seems to be to endorse bigamy ... almost any flavor of crazy you can think of. HR is kind of like what Vince Lombardi once said, "Three things can happen whenever you put the ball in the air, and two of them are bad." Probably most of us start out in HR; I did. But those who make it here recognize the fundamental fact that you can't just partially abandon a lie. "A little leaven" makes the whole lump a lie, and we need the truth, undiluted and inviolate. Many people try to force the issue and mix mainC and MJ, but it only works for as long as you can live with a lie. Coexisting is a different thing- I can coexist with Christians at the AoG church. But this only works as long as I respect the fact it is their church and beliefs, and it is not my place to go there and set them straight or disrupt their services. Now, if they ask my opinion, all bets are off! But even then I have to consider the consequences of anything I say if it gets back to others- a thing I'm not really very good at yet ... I'm kind of outspoken. But I am learning, although whenever anyone sincerely asks me about something I'll always answer the best I can. However, in retrospect it might not have been the best idea to tell them they should have forcefully removed that visiting pastor from the pulpit ... ... but they did ask! Any way we do it, for those of us with ties to mainC that we cannot sever ourselves (such as a spouse who rejects MJ outright), it is a hard thing to stay with MJ. But I cannot abandon the truth for a lie, ANY lie, just so I can more peacefully coexist with my wife, family, or the Assemblies of God. Dan C
I do not attend any church if I can help it, not because they are not Observant, but because their gatherings are not attractive to me. There is nothing there for me that I cannot get at home. A computer and books, and visitors make all the difference these days...the kinds of learning I need I get from these, and the Ruach, and even from my Christian friends who do not know how much they teach me simply by what they do, and who they are...and from a lot of people on Messianic and Christian Boards where I discuss what is being discussed. I would prefer a home church of the First Century, where they studied together, and listened to visiting Scholars who would take the questions, and lay out the answers in a give and take fashion, getting the people assembled to discuss matters small and large, godly and secular, and how to live to YHVH in the best fashion without giving cultural prerequisates to be included.
Hebrew Roots has some interesting writings...I still go there from time to time, and tire eventually of the part they are not getting right. It is the same with the Sacred Name Movement, and almost any other church or religion. I take all that is good, leave the dross, and in the end, walk it out day by day on my own, with the Ruach haKodesh to guide me. I love the fellowship of other Believers, but one can only live on cloud nine so long before you long for something simpler, and less exhausting.
I find that no one set of people have all the answers, and I no longer expect them to. I do not look for someone to tell me how to live...it's already written down in the Scriptures. I often would like help in figuring out how to do some things, but my worries are not about correctness, but fullness...a sense of getting something right in a way that I know pleases G-d. Most of the things that we trouble ourselves with are more than likely childish to Abba, or unimportant except within family and friends. I'm not looking for a group to join so that I can feel that I belong...You are my brother already because you believe in Yeshua. It helps that we agree that Observance is necessary...I don't worry for your soul as do I do over many of the Christians I talk to.
I am never alone...YHVH is always with me, and Yeshua, and the Ruach. Still, I like to bump minds with other Believers on a regular basis, and if what we speak of helps others, then I will be well satisfied with my portion of the conversation.
Some of the questions I ask are asked to get other people to show themselves a little, so we can get to know each other...others I honestly am confused about. In the end, it is YHVH who answers me, who leads me to the right articles, or talks, or sermons, or threads...it has very little need of having any particular name or religion attached to it. If it is soundly based in Scripture, and properly exegeted, I do not need more than the Ruach to understand what is being said.
What I would like to know, Alon, is what your Rabbi is teaching you? And how does he do it? And tell me what you are finding, and why it satisfies your soul. These are the things we need to share, not merely the differences we have from one another. What you are learning, and why you are experiencing that learning now is what is important, and what it is that is most interesting. |
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Post by alon on Mar 21, 2014 23:15:38 GMT -8
Q, I think we may be talking a bit at cross purposes here. A lot of what you describe seems to be a type of what I would call coexistence. But yours is a very loosely structured coexistence, where what I describe is coexistence when one group has a definite upper hand. Still, coexistence only works when all parties like and respect each other. And eventually one of two factions will attain a dominant position in the group, from which it is human nature to try and shape or control the rest.
LROL! I got that far for some reason and stopped! I tell everyone I'm a recovering Baptist. But the original joke was about your long posts- Southern Baptist ministers are known for going a mite long on their sermons. My Dad pastored a country church in Lakewood, NM when I was a kid. There was this broken down old cowboy named Hamp L. who was faithfully there in church every Sunday. And just as faithful, at 12:00 he would take out an old hard biscuit and eat it right there in the pew.
If you want to know more about what my rabbi tells me, I'll be glad to try and put in more insights here. They are a sister congregation with our admin, so there shouldn't be a problem. The next year may not be a lot from him, as his travel plans are crazy- starting with an extended trip to Israel. But much of what I say here comes from or is effected by what is said at shul.
One of the things he says which I'm not yet sure about is that we should be working towards becoming completely Jewish. There are compelling arguments for all different levels of conversion in MJ, and frankly I am still looking for my place here. For example, I don't yet lay teffilin. I know we are told to bind the Word on our hands and on our foreheads, which near as I can figure means to guard it. Of course Hebrew custom is to lay teffelin. Yeshua and the apostles apparently did this, as they observed the Temple rituals. Frankly, at this point it is not high on my radar to learn to do it right- and I won't do it wrong so, there you have it.
Know what you mean. Even just having access to someone who knows 2-3 times a month is a Godsend. It'd be even better if I could be there for the feasts and Shabbats.
Yes, however having talked about this, I sometimes still think I am in some ways living a lie- this even though I am up front with all parties about what I am doing and why. But to not be able to fully express yourself as MJ feels like a lie, right up front. But until my wife finds forgiveness for the Jews who were cruel to her growing up, and then finds acceptance for a bunch of gentiles functioning at least partly as Jews, I suppose this is just how it is, and will be.
Hope you are having a blessed Shabbat.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Mar 29, 2014 2:57:54 GMT -8
Mar 22, 2014 0:15:38 GMT -7 alon said: Q, I think we may be talking a bit at cross purposes here. A lot of what you describe seems to be a type of what I would call coexistence. But yours is a very loosely structured coexistence, where what I describe is coexistence when one group has a definite upper hand. Still, coexistence only works when all parties like and respect each other. And eventually one of two factions will attain a dominant position in the group, from which it is human nature to try and shape or control the rest. I am not at all averse to a standard Messianic Synagogue Service...whatever that is… being the basis for all Messianic meetings. I merely want all members of all flavors of Messianic Believers to be able to talk together, and understand each other. I want a Rabbi that has had enough experience with Christian Believers that instead of always teaching about the specifics of carrying out the commandments according to the Jewish Customs, they might teach the , and Yeshua's ways of interpreting those commandments at one and the same time. I advocate for the to be emphasized on every Sabbath, and High Holy Day, but I want to hear a different 'how' in the way they are to be carried out. There are Rabbinical Traditions, and Christian Traditions, and neither is including much of each other's traditions as far as I can see. But I don't want to be bound by an eastern culture that came out of the Chaldeans and the Canaanites, through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: added to by some of the Egyptian and Midianite cultures that came out of the Exodus with Moses and the Israelites, and all that was added to the simple commandments of YHVH to Moses with enough careful instruction to get such a diverse group of people, over three million strong, to form a single culture. I know it was necessary over 3400 years ago, but it should be less so now if we want to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom to Jews, and the to Christians.I know the value of culture, but the commandments are in themselves the important part...not how they are done. I am saying that in a true Messianic Assembly, being Jewish and acting Jewish should be not be different than being and acting Christian. The terms should be dropped in favor of Messianic Believers. One might say they were of the Rabbinic Traditions or the Christian Traditions, but that should be it…an interesting fact that allows each to makes allowances for the other.
Each side of a Messianic Assembly must take steps toward a middle ground...not to drop their ways of keeping , but to have a place where the teaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom in the Messianic Assembly is just as important as teaching all the . I do not want to be at a Beit Din for learning and worship anymore than I want to be at a Christian assembly where no commandments of God are taught except the basic Love G-d and Love your Neighbor.
There seems to be very little of the teaching of the Brit Chadashah in Messianic Synagogues that are Observant, or the Messianic Jews would understand some of the Christian verbage. They don’t have to get sickening about it…just taking a few seminary classes should do it. I do not want any ‘Hallelujah Brothers’ thrown at me either on a regular basis. What I would want is the Rituals of the Messianic Jews to be the basic structure of an Assembly of Believers, but instead of only teaching a portion, with a little of the Prophets added on, each portion would need to be discussed at the same time in how the Renewed Covenant is both more strictly carried out (If you actually do it at all well), and how that is spoken of in the Brit Chadashah. But I would also want the worship patterns of the Believers from the Christian side to be added in to the service, and petitionary prayer in an assembly, along the lines of the so-called 'Lord's Prayer' to be added in as well.I want a blending of Believers, not a requirement by the Messianic Jews that everyone not a Jew should begin being a Proselyte to Messianic Judaism, because among observant Messianic Jews, that seems to be the attitude.Mar 22, 2014 0:15:38 GMT -7 alon said:
Nope, never even been a Baptist. It is the one comfort that I have in my journey ... 
LROL! I got that far for some reason and stopped! I tell everyone I'm a recovering Baptist. But the original joke was about your long posts- Southern Baptist ministers are known for going a mite long on their sermons. My Dad pastored a country church in Lakewood, NM when I was a kid. There was this broken down old cowboy named Hamp L. who was faithfully there in church every Sunday. And just as faithful, at 12:00 he would take out an old hard biscuit and eat it right there in the pew.
Alas, find if I do not explain what I am getting at in detail that people do not understand what I am getting at. And YHVH told me to write…not debate. I’d never make an hour in a Yeshiva even if I had the Mishna and Talmud in my not so eidetic memory!
I hope that despite the length of my arguments I am not adding in a bunch of unnecessary information. On the other hand, I don’t post every minute because I take time over my writing…even doing research on the smallest piece of datum I am unsure of so that I do not make any unnecessary errors.
I am sorry if I am being difficult to read, as I want to be readable, and therefore read. You will have to tell me if I talk too much. Am I being pedantic and otherwise dull to read, or just loooong?
If you want to know more about what my rabbi tells me, I'll be glad to try and put in more insights here. They are a sister congregation with our admin, so there shouldn't be a problem. The next year may not be a lot from him, as his travel plans are crazy- starting with an extended trip to Israel. But much of what I say here comes from or is affected by what is said at shul.
I would imagine that you are following the traditional in depth teaching towards conversion into Judaism, if in a Messianic sense. The teaching system is pretty much the same if one is following all the in depth teachings of Judaism without the Messianic allowance for Yeshua, and Grace being a part of the picture. It is the study of the Mishna and the Talmud, and why things are done in the Jewish manner in the first place. If not, I'd like to know what you are studying, and why. Tell me how your sessions with him proceed…who is there, and what you talk about, and what course material is being used.Mar 22, 2014 0:15:38 GMT -7 alon said: One of the things he says which I'm not yet sure about is that we should be working towards becoming completely Jewish. There are compelling arguments for all different levels of conversion in MJ, and frankly I am still looking for my place here. For example, I don't yet lay teffilin. I know we are told to bind the Word on our hands and on our foreheads, which near as I can figure means to guard it. Of course Hebrew custom is to lay teffelin. Yeshua and the apostles apparently did this, as they observed the Temple rituals. Frankly, at this point it is not high on my radar to learn to do it right- and I won't do it wrong so, there you have it. No, Alon, what you want to do is lay Teffilin as a Jew would if you are doing it at all, because that is what Judaism, Messianic or not would teach.
To me there is not a right way, only a customary way. That's not bad, but I do not want any customs in my assembly that I do not need to fulfill YHVH's commandments. So...I don't go to an assembly. Not having Christian or Judaic family leaves me able to do as I please, and I simply keep trying to add on everything the Ruach is drawing me to as fast as I can add it into my life.
It would be very much easier for me to be observant if I lived where there was a Messianic Jewish community, and could have the cultural support of other observant Believers...not to pretend a Jewish identity that I do not have, but to be in tune with those around me.
Mar 22, 2014 0:15:38 GMT -7 alon said: Know what you mean. Even just having access to someone who knows 2-3 times a month is a Godsend. It'd be even better if I could be there for the feasts and Shabbats. I do understand not living a lie.
Mar 22, 2014 0:15:38 GMT -7 alon said: Yes, however having talked about this, I sometimes still think I am in some ways living a lie- this even though I am up front with all parties about what I am doing and why. But to not be able to fully express yourself as MJ feels like a lie, right up front. But until my wife finds forgiveness for the Jews who were cruel to her growing up, and then finds acceptance for a bunch of gentiles functioning at least partly as Jews, I suppose this is just how it is, and will be.
Well. if you are being truthful in action and deed, there is no fault to be found in you...that is what Grace is for. You cannot force your spouse into observance, and the less you require of her, the better. You and she are one in YHVH, and you must treat her with all kindness.
In no place does Yeshua say he comes set a man at variance with his wife, or a wife with her husband. She believes and trust in Yeshua...You need to walk your walk, and not bother her about her walk, particularly when walking out your witness quietly in front of her is the best thing you can do to persuade her, or anyone else.
Matthew 10:32-42 (KJV)
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
At best, all one can hope for is for her to keep your Shabbat with you...as you keep her Sunday worship with her...hopefully keeping your mouth shut as much as possible...until you come to complete agreement on these matters. And even if you never do, your acceptance of her is the most Yeshua-like thing you can do.
The last thing one should ever do is to talk Christianese to a Jew, or use Judaic verbage with a Christian. Messianic Believers should use both! The Adversary has done too good a job of separating the two sides of the issue with keeping the law versus not keeping the law, and speaking the wrong words only offends people.
One must be discreet. Yeshua said "to be as wily as snakes, and as meek as doves."
I will pray for you both.
As to Christians, you cannot endear yourself to them, or demonstrate a good walk if they see you being brusque or condemning of their ways, even if they deserve disapproval. I actively teach my stance to anyone who will listen, but it is always in terms of ‘coming up higher in Jesus’, or ‘becoming more like Jesus, and He kept the law”. And then if they object, I pull out Matthew...in the KJV.
Matthew 22:35-40 (KJV) 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12-14 (KJV) 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:21-27 (KJV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Keeping Shabbat with rest, enjoyment of friends and family, while speaking of YHVH, and studying about YHVH is what the Christians will find the hardest to do as they take on observance, and is to me the main marker of obedience to .
Certainly tossing out images from the Catholic churches would be nice, but they don't seem to know what an image really is. I don't even like a plain wooden cross, even as a reminder, yet most
Christians probably think that representational objects are not idols. But those Messianic Believers such as myself cannot object to the innate Jewishness of our G-d. Keeping the Moeds would be the next mark of deepening commitment from a Christian turning to observant Messianic belief, just as tossing out pagan observance of anything should be tossed out.
Keeping a completely Kosher lifestyle is not going to work for every Believer...although I don't eat anything directly forbidden, I wonder very much if a Messianic Jew would even enter my house, much less sit down to dinner with me.
And this is where life becomes hard to Observant Jews if they do keep Kosher themselves...if we cannot form a community, and friendship where food doesn't get between us, then Jews are the ones crushing out the weak Believers which is exactly what Yeshua warned against.
Matthew 12:15-20 (CJB)
15 Aware of this, he left that area. Many people followed him; and he healed them all
16 but warned them not to make him known.
17 This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Yesha‘yahu the prophet,
18 “Here is my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles.
19 He will not fight or shout, no one will hear his voice in the streets;
20 he will not snap off a broken reed or snuff out a smoldering wick until he has brought justice through to victory.
There is to be no judgement of anyone’s actions until Yeshua comes, and Messianic Jews lording it over the less kosher compliant Jews or Gentiles should be forbidden. If that means if a Messianic Jew refuses to eat supper prepared by a non- kosher Messianic Believer, they will have to cook and bring the food, and eat it on paper plates! And everyone can get used to having a lot of extra small paper plates for the dairy products at the meals. Or Messianic Jews should realize that love covers a multitude of sins, and force down that gravy covered beef that just MIGHT have a little cream in it. They could pretend a little, even, and give their brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt so long are they are NOT serving pork with a shrimp or lobster hors d'oeuvre.
And the less Kosher Believers could be aware not to cook the wrong things on a fellowship night!
Melding the two divergent groups together has to rest on what is jointly held by us, not what is culturally correct to either set of Believers. Following the basic commandments is not a Jewish thing, but an critical part of Messianic Belief. Following the Brit Chadashah is not a Christian thing, but another critical part of Messianic Belief.
The whole point of trying to recapture the first Generation teachings of the Apostles is to not have a Greek or a Jewish Religion, but a G-dly one.
Good Shabbat! |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 30, 2014 9:05:52 GMT -8
Questor when you say you eat only what is not forbidden is such a large statement when that answer carries with it so much detail most overlook. Let me ask you this, do you eat ground beef from the grocery story that is not Kosher Certified? I hear many people say that is is still Kosher so what are your thoughts? You made the comment about gravy and such and that if it was placed in front of you one should just eat it but again your answer is not 100% in line with scripture with that line of thinking due to some obvious factors besides simply milk and meat. Also could you point out the scripture about one (Not Messiah) being able to love someone and cover their sins? Your comment, Just trying to find where you figured that from. And last but not least you really need to try to keep your posts shorter with them being so long it makes it hard for people to respond without writing a short novel  Todah! Shalom! Yedidyah |
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Post by Questor on Mar 30, 2014 16:15:19 GMT -8
Questor when you say you eat only what is not forbidden is such a large statement when that answer carries with it so much detail most overlook.
I am willing to take the time to learn what butchering I will be doing.
Let me ask you this, do you eat ground beef from the grocery story that is not Kosher Certified? I hear many people say that is is still Kosher so what are your thoughts?
Sorry, I don't eat hamburger if I can help it, because I do not know what is in it. I buy ground Bison only. But nothing I eat is Kosher certified because it is not readily available to me. I follow Kashrut according to my ability to do so, knowing that Grace covers my imperfections at doing so.You made the comment about gravy and such and that if it was placed in front of you one should just eat it but again your answer is not 100% in line with scripture with that line of thinking due to some obvious factors besides simply milk and meat.
I don't mind keeping courses separate to avoid mixing dairy and meat, but I live alone, and as you know, am surrounded by paganized Christians. If someone that keeps kashrut comes over, I would like that person to not avoid my food as if it was tainted by my touching it, that's all.
Also could you point out the scripture about one (Not Messiah) being able to love someone and cover their sins? Your comment, Just trying to find where you figured that from. 1 Peter 4:7-9 (CJB)
7 The accomplishing of the goal of all things is close at hand. Therefore, keep alert and self-controlled, so that you can pray.
8 More than anything, keep loving each other actively; because love covers many sins.
9 Welcome one another into your homes without grumbling.
And last but not least you really need to try to keep your posts shorter with them being so long it makes it hard for people to respond without writing a short novel [/font][/font][/font][/font] [/quote] |
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Post by alon on Apr 2, 2014 16:01:28 GMT -8
Ruth, I just met with another "Messianic" believer, who I met through one of the ministries at the AoG church. He turned out to be more HR than MJ; believed Yeshua was created, had issues with pronunciation that made me think he might be Sacred Names as well, believes the Lost Tribes (particularly the tribe of Dan) were scattered throughout the world and true believers are just the Jewish remnant being called back ... . I had to tell him I couldn't fellowship with him. It's disappointing, but I have to stand by my beliefs.
This is the problem with HR- most by far that go through the HR movement tend to end up either back in Christianity or in one (or more) of the crazy cultish sects of HR; yet many of them want to fly the MJ banner! I can see too why the Christian churches tend to stop the salvation message at belief in Jesus. It is a hard sell to get people to sign on when you add in repentance and obedience! It can get a bit lonely at times. But I'm not willing to move back to Spokane yet just so I can find other Messianics about ... sorry Yedidyah.
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 17:58:45 GMT -8
Alon, I totally understand where you are coming from. Hebrew Roots I have come across. I do not agree with them at all, especially the ones that state they are Jewish and are not. Some can be cultish in nature. However even in the MJ one needs to be careful with what is taught. Not everything in MJ is wrong, also if there is something that I don't understand I either ask or just wait and see what happens. If I do not agree with something than I just leave it alone. Also if I know that it is a lie and is not biblical, I will try to bring the truth from the scripture and then I just leave it in God's hands.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Jul 5, 2014 20:58:19 GMT -8
Q, I think we may be talking a bit at cross purposes here. A lot of what you describe seems to be a type of what I would call coexistence. But yours is a very loosely structured coexistence, where what I describe is coexistence when one group has a definite upper hand. Still, coexistence only works when all parties like and respect each other. And eventually one of two factions will attain a dominant position in the group, from which it is human nature to try and shape or control the rest. LROL! I got that far for some reason and stopped! I tell everyone I'm a recovering Baptist. But the original joke was about your long posts- Southern Baptist ministers are known for going a mite long on their sermons. My Dad pastored a country church in Lakewood, NM when I was a kid. There was this broken down old cowboy named Hamp L. who was faithfully there in church every Sunday. And just as faithful, at 12:00 he would take out an old hard biscuit and eat it right there in the pew. If you want to know more about what my rabbi tells me, I'll be glad to try and put in more insights here. They are a sister congregation with our admin, so there shouldn't be a problem. The next year may not be a lot from him, as his travel plans are crazy- starting with an extended trip to Israel. But much of what I say here comes from or is effected by what is said at shul.
One of the things he says which I'm not yet sure about is that we should be working towards becoming completely Jewish. There are compelling arguments for all different levels of conversion in MJ, and frankly I am still looking for my place here. For example, I don't yet lay teffilin. I know we are told to bind the Word on our hands and on our foreheads, which near as I can figure means to guard it. Of course Hebrew custom is to lay teffelin. Yeshua and the apostles apparently did this, as they observed the Temple rituals. Frankly, at this point it is not high on my radar to learn to do it right- and I won't do it wrong so, there you have it. Know what you mean. Even just having access to someone who knows 2-3 times a month is a Godsend. It'd be even better if I could be there for the feasts and Shabbats. Yes, however having talked about this, I sometimes still think I am in some ways living a lie- this even though I am up front with all parties about what I am doing and why. But to not be able to fully express yourself as MJ feels like a lie, right up front. But until my wife finds forgiveness for the Jews who were cruel to her growing up, and then finds acceptance for a bunch of gentiles functioning at least partly as Jews, I suppose this is just how it is, and will be. Hope you are having a blessed Shabbat. Dan C
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Post by alon on Jul 6, 2014 15:52:17 GMT -8
I would like to know what shul is, and how it is performed, or undergone...I know that shul is Yiddish word for school, so I gather it is a study of some kind...tell me what one is like, and what you might discuss.
Since most of us can't make it to Shabbat services, we do hold a short service which includes prayer, praise (Mesianic music), "chavarim tovim" (meet and greet, welcome visitors) and passing the tzedikah box (tithes and offerings). But when the rabbi teaches, there isn't a lot of discussion. He'll answer questions at he end mostly, but during the lesson we listen. Prayers are a mix of Hebrew and English, and Hebrew names are used for the most part.
We used to eat and fellowship afterwards, but it got to be just too long. Since we start at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, it's usually between 9:00 and 9:30 when we're done so eating becomes a problem for those who must travel and/or work the next day.
A couple of yrs. ago Rabbi S. gave a Hebrew class before all this, which went from 6:00 to 7:00. I came in on the end of this class, so I know some of the essentials, like:
Shalom- peace, hello, goodbye
Shalom, lehitraot- goodbye, see you later
Shabbat shalom- (wishing you) the peace of he Sabbath
Shavua tov- how I like to greet the Christians on Sunday (traditional first day of the week greeting  , just being my ornery self)
and the most important thing for a Jewish proselyte to learn-
Ani rotse le'echol mashehu, b'vachashah!- I want something to eat, please!
Dan  C |
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Post by Questor on Jul 6, 2014 16:05:24 GMT -8
I would like to know what shul is, and how it is performed, or undergone...I know that shul is Yiddish word for school, so I gather it is a study of some kind...tell me what one is like, and what you might discuss.
All I can tell you about is ours, and it may not fit the Jewish model entirely. Since most of us can't make it to Shabbat services, we do hold a short service which includes prayer, praise (Mesianic music), "chavarim tovim" (meet and greet, welcome visitors) and passing the tzedikah box (tithes and offerings). But when the rabbi teaches, there isn't a lot of discussion. He'll answer questions at he end mostly, but during the lesson we listen. Prayers are a mix of Hebrew and English, and Hebrew names are used for the most part. We used to eat and fellowship afterwards, but it got to be just too long. Since we start at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, it's usually between 9:00 and 9:30 when we're done so eating becomes a problem for those who must travel and/or work the next day. A couple of yrs. ago Rabbi S. gave a Hebrew class before all this, which went from 6:00 to 7:00. I came in on the end of this class, so I know some of the essentials, like: Shalom- peace, hello, goodbye Shalom, lehitraot- goodbye, see you later Shabbat shalom- (wishing you) the peace of he Sabbath Shavua tov- how I like to greet the Christians on Sunday (traditional first day of the week greeting , just being my ornery self) and the most important thing for a Jewish proselyte to learn- Ani rotse le'echol mashehu, b'vachashah!- I want something to eat, please! Dan C
Of course, the fact that I haven't been studying these last few weeks might have something to do with it...I must stick to my list better, but lately the people coming around have been too 'present' for me to do that. (Contractors...nice guys, and Believers, but just too many people to concentrate! |
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Post by Questor on Jul 6, 2014 16:06:52 GMT -8
All I can tell you about is ours, and it may not fit the Jewish model entirely. Since most of us can't make it to Shabbat services, we do hold a short service which includes prayer, praise (Mesianic music), "chavarim tovim" (meet and greet, welcome visitors) and passing the tzedikah box (tithes and offerings). But when the rabbi teaches, there isn't a lot of discussion. He'll answer questions at he end mostly, but during the lesson we listen. Prayers are a mix of Hebrew and English, and Hebrew names are used for the most part. We used to eat and fellowship afterwards, but it got to be just too long. Since we start at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, it's usually between 9:00 and 9:30 when we're done so eating becomes a problem for those who must travel and/or work the next day. A couple of yrs. ago Rabbi S. gave a Hebrew class before all this, which went from 6:00 to 7:00. I came in on the end of this class, so I know some of the essentials, like: Shalom- peace, hello, goodbye Shalom, lehitraot- goodbye, see you later Shabbat shalom- (wishing you) the peace of he Sabbath Shavua tov- how I like to greet the Christians on Sunday (traditional first day of the week greeting , just being my ornery self) and the most important thing for a Jewish proselyte to learn- Ani rotse le'echol mashehu, b'vachashah!- I want something to eat, please! Dan C
Of course, the fact that I haven't been studying these last few weeks might have something to do with it...I must stick to my list better, but lately the people coming around have been too 'present' for me to do that. (Contractors...nice guys, and Believers, but just too many people to concentrate!) |
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Post by alon on Jul 6, 2014 16:27:15 GMT -8
By the way, what does the Rabbi teach on?
He incorporates a lot of Hebrew customs and traditions into his teachings. For example he's given classes on N'telot Yadiyim (ritual handwashing) and laying Teffilin (before I found the class, so I missed it). He also was good friends with a man who fished the Sea of Galilee just as it was done in the first century. He taught on this, tied in with the B'rit Chadasha accounts of fishing, fishermen, etc. Was VERY interesting!
Oh, and how could I have forgotten- we read from the weekly parshah as well- par'sha, Haftorah and B'rit Chadashah portions.
It is a huge blessing to have him there, and to be able to fellowship with like minded believers. Even my wife says I always come back from there regenerated and re-energized.
Dan C
Edit: class size is about 5 of us who are always there, and usually 2 to 5 others. For a while it was down to just 3 of us, but is back up now and doing well. |
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Most Christians believe if their heart is right, that their actions will flow from it, and to a point they are correct.
, and all of scriptural Christianity, by discarding both sets of customs, and by merging the two languages (word patterns and special words and statements) of Christianity, and Messianic Judaism. Christians and Messianic Jews will find that there can be a different place where anyone is welcome if they love Yeshua. ... I doubt that many would stomach it, I am often nauseated by what I hear, and I am used to hearing it. Christianese is often an emotional language ... I think Alon and his Rabbi are wrong.I think that The MJ's and Christians can merge. once MJ's see Christian Believers being 
... but they did ask!
, just being my ornery self)
