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Post by Questor on Mar 12, 2014 1:30:11 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Is our personal, human spirit our might, our active power (however little it may be and is), as the Holy Spirit is the active power of YHVH?
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Post by alon on Mar 12, 2014 3:15:02 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Is our personal, human spirit our might, our active power (however little it may be and is), as the Holy Spirit is the active power of YHVH?
H3966 מאד me'ôd From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.
However, according to my Webster's Hebrew Dictionary, the only meaning for me'od is "fine; very well."
And according to NTC's Hebrew English Dictionary me'od (mem, aleph, dalet) means "very, extremely, much." However me'od meaning "might, power" is spelled mem, aleph, vav, dalet.
"Spirit," of course is "ruach," which is the only word listed.
Confusing ... so I'm willing to go along with our "spirit" being the source of our power for things spiritual (i.e. will-power), and made much more effective by the indwelling of the Ruach HaChodesh. But I wouldn't be willing to absolutely say that is what was meant here- just that it sounds OK to me ...
Dan (not really sure on this one) C |
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Post by Questor on Mar 12, 2014 15:32:51 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Is our personal, human spirit our might, our active power (however little it may be and is), as the Holy Spirit is the active power of YHVH? According to Strong's, "might" is probably as good a translation as any. H3966 מאד me'ôd From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well. However, according to my Webster's Hebrew Dictionary, the only meaning for me'od is "fine; very well." And according to NTC's Hebrew English Dictionary me'od (mem, aleph, dalet) means "very, extremely, much." However me'od meaning "might, power" is spelled mem, aleph, vav, dalet. "Spirit," of course is "ruach," which is the only word listed. Confusing ... so I'm willing to go along with our "spirit" being the source of our power for things spiritual (i.e. will-power), and made much more effective by the indwelling of the Ruach HaChodesh. But I wouldn't be willing to absolutely say that is what was meant here- just that it sounds OK to me ... Dan (not really sure on this one) C
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Are these are indirect references to body, soul, and spirit? |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Mar 14, 2014 8:33:41 GMT -8
I find guidance from this verse:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Amplifying and rewording: God formed the body of man from the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Therefore, my sense of your question is that the spirit/breath/power from God is what makes us alive or a soul. The breath returns to God when we die and the body returns to dust.
I also sense some confusion about the person of the Holy Spirit. This leads to the confusion about what is a spirit. It is clear to me the Bible indicates a Godhead composed of three persons (not to be confused with the doctrine of Trinity, which is a Catholic trademark). The Father and the Son are physical beings. The Holy Spirit is not a physical being but just the spirit/breath/power. There is no other non-physical being. Man's "spirit" cannot be separated from the body as a conscious existence. I suspect these observations will lead to some disagreement and dispute. I hesitated to share them.
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Post by Questor on Mar 14, 2014 22:21:01 GMT -8
I find guidance from this verse: Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Amplifying and rewording: God formed the body of man from the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Therefore, my sense of your question is that the spirit/breath/power from God is what makes us alive or a soul. The breath returns to God when we die and the body returns to dust. I also sense some confusion about the person of the Holy Spirit. This leads to the confusion about what is a spirit. It is clear to me the Bible indicates a Godhead composed of three persons (not to be confused with the doctrine of Trinity, which is a Catholic trademark).
The Father and the Son are physical beings. The Holy Spirit is not a physical being but just the spirit/breath/power. There is no other non-physical being. Man's "spirit" cannot be separated from the body as a conscious existence. I suspect these observations will lead to some disagreement and dispute. I hesitated to share them.
YHVH has always been Elohim, so we cannot know how YHVH composes Himself. However, since I am not a Trinitarian, I have not a need to see the Ruach separately, only an inclination to speak of Him as a Him, out of respect.
In other Visions, I have seen the Duality which is YHVH/Yeshua expressed, but again, I hesitate to limit YHVH in anything, as I do not fully understand what I was seeing in the images that I saw...well, that's not exactly it either, but Visions are very hard to describe. I understand them fully while experiencing them, moment by moment, but what the whole of them mean is not always plain to me.
The Duality I have seen is best expressed by an eastern Yin/Yang sign, except that instead of Yin and Yang being equal as the Asians seem to see it, I have seen it more as a very large Yin, matched with a very small Yang...and more like a tear drop shape than a double curved line separating YHVH/Yeshua.
Since you have been kind enough to share something with me (and the world, in an attempt to help me), I thought I would share something as well, although it's not terribly pertinent.
As for disagreement and dispute...you have the right to disagree with anyone, so there is no need for dispute.
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Mar 16, 2014 5:31:30 GMT -8
Do not misunderstand. I am not a trinitarian either. Do not confuse the Biblical belief in three persons of the Godhead (ELAIM) with the Catholic trademark of trinity. There is a lot of traditional baggage associated with the corrupting pagan Catholic doctrine of trinity. There is a superficial common component of three persons but the true nature of the Catholic doctrine of trinity is loaded with other nonsense that is revealed by their adoration of Mary, saints, and other pagan and non-Biblical concepts. There are a lot of people misled by the concepts of duality and monotheism, which corrupt Biblical teaching and lead people astray into pagan concepts. Our Messiah was very clear in His teachings concerning the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit. I have written numerous articles about the three persons of the Godhead. A recent summary: www.iaua.name/Archives/2013/2013-04-19.htmlI am very zealous to reject ANY teachings of ANY tradition that are contrary to Biblical teaching. This may place me at odds with the Messianic community but I hope that a strict belief in the Bible is compatible. |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 16, 2014 11:30:32 GMT -8
Shalom! So something to consider. So if we are nothing but dust without the living life breathed into us by our creator than are our bodies separate from our spirits? Our bodies are nothing without our spirits, so when we sin against our bodies then we are really sinning against our spirits. This is why the  is so important as a guide. Why the example of Yeshua is so important. It is our guide to keeping our spiritual lives in the order Hashem wants, not what our earthly flesh wants. I believe our spiritual side is always wanting to grow closer to Hashem (Our source of life) and our physical bodies are longing to return to the dirt. This is the two battles in this world, when one returns to the dust have they built the connection with Hashem needed to be given the continual breath of life? Or have they searched after the pleasures and desires of the flesh that corrode and dissolve back to dust? Our bodies will die so they are not a permanent part of who we are but our souls which are alive that without our soul our bodies die so we are not two (Body and spirit) but rather only spirit for the body is dead absent of spirit. So the spirit can live absent of the body making it the real aspect of who we are. A temple is only as good as the living spirit that dwells within it so how are we conditioning our temples for the living eternal breath of Hashem? How are we making ready the spiritual aspects of our life for the world to come? These are all questions we must be honest with ourselves to better ourselves for the true will of Hashem. Have a Blessed Purim everyone! A time when we dwell deep into who we really are within the kingdom and look into the deeper picture of the true character of Hashem. Chag Samaech! Yedidyah |
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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 17:09:23 GMT -8
Shalom! So something to consider. So if we are nothing but dust without the living life breathed into us by our creator than are our bodies separate from our spirits? Our bodies are nothing without our spirits, so when we sin against our bodies then we are really sinning against our spirits. This is why the is so important as a guide. Why the example of Yeshua is so important. It is our guide to keeping our spiritual lives in the order Hashem wants, not what our earthly flesh wants. I believe our spiritual side is always wanting to grow closer to Hashem (Our source of life) and our physical bodies are longing to return to the dirt. This is the two battles in this world, when one returns to the dust have they built the connection with Hashem needed to be given the continual breath of life? Or have they searched after the pleasures and desires of the flesh that corrode and dissolve back to dust? Our bodies will die so they are not a permanent part of who we are but our souls which are alive that without our soul our bodies die so we are not two (Body and spirit) but rather only spirit for the body is dead absent of spirit. So the spirit can live absent of the body making it the real aspect of who we are. A temple is only as good as the living spirit that dwells within it so how are we conditioning our temples for the living eternal breath of Hashem? How are we making ready the spiritual aspects of our life for the world to come? These are all questions we must be honest with ourselves to better ourselves for the true will of Hashem. Have a Blessed Purim everyone! A time when we dwell deep into who we really are within the kingdom and look into the deeper picture of the true character of Hashem. Chag Samaech! Yedidyah
YHVH seems to not use a body to contain His Self, for He encompasses all of reality in time and out of it, but does have a Spirit that reaches into time from beyond time, though of course we cannot know.
YHVH also has a Self that is uniquely Him, and yet seems to have created other additional Parts of Himself from Himself as He has Need, which are part of the Elohim, even as Yeshua is part of the Elohim, even as He created us...a seperate creature, yet like to Him in having soul and spirit?
Is it our spirit that holds our memories, our identity, and our self-ness? Do we even have a spirit in the sense that YHVH has one, for we have the earnest of His Spirit in us now.
Our self was made in the Image of YHVH...is He more aptly to be described Soul and Spirit? Are we, once we shed this human tent?
Are the bodies that we are in a temporary measure, to allow our soul and spirit an opportunity to learn and experience the things that we must learn to move on into the Kingdom? Is our human body changed, and made incorruptible of our spirit, which having then been perfected, that spirit body will be that in which our soul rests? |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 16, 2014 17:28:36 GMT -8
I don't think the spirit and soul are separate but rather one of the same.
Yedidyah
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 17:55:25 GMT -8
How can one believe that God the Father is God, Yeshua is God, but not the Holy Spirit? Is He not God also? In my thinking He is not some force, power or energy. He is totally God. The bible that I read refers to the Holy Spirit as God. It refers the Holy Spirit to Him and His. He is grieved when we sin against the Spirit of God. One cannot grieve a force, power or energy. Why? Because it is a thing, not a being. The Holy Spirit is a being. As the bible states that He is.
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." 1John 5:7,8 NKJV
"Messiah Yeshua is the One who came by water and blood—not by water only, but by water and blood. The Ruach is the One who testifies, because the Ruach is the truth. For there are three that testify— the Ruach, the water, and the blood—and these three are one. 1 John 5:6-8 Tree of Life bible.
The Complete Jewish bible is almost the same translation as the Tree of Life bible.
Dualism- 1.As a worldview, the belief that the "real" is of two kinds, or in two ultimate controlling powers. Thus, metaphysical dualism may oppose matter to SPIRIT, while dualistic religion involves belief in two eternally conflicting principles. Modified dualism holds God to be ambivalent, both benevolent and malevolent.
2. A view of man as consisting of two substances, physical (flesh, body) and mental or spiritual (mind, soul, spirit). Nestorian taught this.
No where in the bible does it ever state that we are made up of two parts. We are made up of three parts, spirit, soul and body.
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV
"May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Complete Jewish Bible.
Other parts of the bible it shows the differences of what is the spirit, what is the soul and what is the flesh.
Some people confuse the soul and spirit. Sometimes people say the soul and spirit are both the same, which they are not.
The best book that would be very good to study on the tri-part being of man is Watchman Nee's book called, "The Spiritual Man" He uses every verse to back up the spirit, soul and body. And he breaks down each part and how they all work. If you want to know how the flesh and the soul works against the spirit and the Spirit of God, that book will give you an understanding.
Our flesh and soul are always in constant battle against the spirit and the Spirit of God.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 18:06:48 GMT -8
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 NKJV
"See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword - it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 Complete Jewish Bible.
It shows here that the Word of God cuts or divides the soul and spirit. Why is that? Because the soul interferes with our spirit and the Spirit of God. The fleshly thoughts and emotions are part of your soul, not your spirit, and these is what gets us into trouble. This is why it needs to be separated, divided and cut in two. This is why Yeshua told us that we must crucify the flesh and renew our minds with the mind of Christ, Yeshua.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 16, 2014 19:45:25 GMT -8
What is interesting is that the word used to describe spirit is the same word used to describe the Spirit of Hashem who breathes life into every living creature, now the soul is something that makes people unique. Anyone have any references to the to backup the previous ideas? This is a good discussion and someone has to ask the deeper questions to build the conversation into a deeper level  The Spirit/Soul maintain life within the body so can one be more of spirit and less of soul or vice versa? Moriah you brought up some good points and yes I have read the watchmans knees book but think they really reached in some areas to make their point. Have a blessed night, Yedidyah |
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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 19:48:14 GMT -8
Do not misunderstand. I am not a trinitarian either. Do not confuse the Biblical belief in three persons of the Godhead (ELAIM) with the Catholic trademark of trinity. There is a lot of traditional baggage associated with the corrupting pagan Catholic doctrine of trinity. There is a superficial common component of three persons but the true nature of the Catholic doctrine of trinity is loaded with other nonsense that is revealed by their adoration of Mary, saints, and other pagan and non-Biblical concepts. There are a lot of people misled by the concepts of duality and monotheism, which corrupt Biblical teaching and lead people astray into pagan concepts. Our Messiah was very clear in His teachings concerning the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit. I have written numerous articles about the three persons of the Godhead. A recent summary: www.iaua.name/Archives/2013/2013-04-19.htmlI am very zealous to reject ANY teachings of ANY tradition that are contrary to Biblical teaching. This may place me at odds with the Messianic community but I hope that a strict belief in the Bible is compatible.
What I have seen in my vision has been more conceptual of a large/small duality that is encompassed, or exists upon a third all encompassing sea, and are, within the confines of my vision more like a continuously changing state of being, from sea, to wave, to curling inwards upon itself, and forming the teardrop shaped Yin/Yang, before re-combining into the sea again. You have to realize that visions are not concepts, but what one sees graphically, and then has a great deal of trouble describing in existing concepts. A Yin/Yang symbol for instance is just such a concept...static, and without life or movement. One could just as accurately as describe what I have seen as flows of energy within the universe, and the energy assuming both straight lines and waves at one and the same time, within the universe.
As I said, visions are very hard to describe, and evidently very hard to hear about. It gives me a great deal of sympathy for the prophets, and makes me greatful not to be one. Some VIsions are more symbolic than others, and some you have trouble telling apart from a video of actual events. Since my visions appear to be instructional to date, not prophetic, they simply help me understand what the Scriptures already say, or point me into areas where I need more instruction. |
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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 19:56:00 GMT -8
I don't think the spirit and soul are separate but rather one of the same. Yedidyah
Within Christian traditions, pastors often speak of 'soulish' things when they might just as well be saying carnal, and should more properly be saying 'humanish', or some word that expresses our broken nature. |
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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 20:00:30 GMT -8
What is interesting is that the word used to describe spirit is the same word used to describe the Spirit of Hashem who breathes life into every living creature, now the soul is something that makes people unique. Anyone have any references to the to backup the previous ideas? This is a good discussion and someone has to ask the deeper questions to build the conversation into a deeper level The Spirit/Soul maintain life within the body so can one be more of spirit and less of soul or vice versa? Moriah you brought up some good points and yes I have read the watchmans knees book but think they really reached in some areas to make their point. Have a blessed night, Yedidyah |
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