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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 20:59:05 GMT -8
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 NKJV "See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword - it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 Complete Jewish Bible. It shows here that the Word of God cuts or divides the soul and spirit. Why is that? Because the soul interferes with our spirit and the Spirit of God. The fleshly thoughts and emotions are part of your soul, not your spirit, and these is what gets us into trouble. This is why it needs to be separated, divided and cut in two. This is why Yeshua told us that we must crucify the flesh and renew our minds with the mind of Christ, Yeshua. Moriah Ruth
division of soul and spirit
division of joints and marrow
discerning of the thoughts and intents of the heart
judging the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart
These phrases are not about the 'what is soul' and 'what is spirit' though...it's more the reference to laser-fine division between one thing and the next.
Heart is a physical thing, of the body...is then the soul of the body, or of the spirit?
One reads in a different translation, 'You shall love YHVH your Elohim with all your mind, your heart, your soul and your strength.' This encompasses putting all of you into something, like in your trust and belief in G-d, in the same way that the Word divides so narrowly qualities of being that shade one into the other...like trying to find a clean way to cut between a skin cell, and a cell of flesh or muscle.
I am trying to get at what IS the mind, the heart, the soul, the spirit...which is of human or G-dly origin...which tends to the physical, which to the spiritual, and where emotion comes in, since they act on the flesh, and yet stem from what...mind? soul? spirit?
To me, mind is body, soul is identity, memory, habits, experience, and spirit something else...something empowering, like the breath from YHVH that created us. And then, how is our spirit different from the Ruach...in power, greatly, but in what other ways?.
Any ideas welcome! |
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Post by Questor on Mar 16, 2014 22:25:25 GMT -8
How can one believe that God the Father is God, Yeshua is God, but not the Holy Spirit? Is He not God also? In my thinking He is not some force, power or energy. He is totally God. The bible that I read refers to the Holy Spirit as God. It refers the Holy Spirit to Him and His. He is grieved when we sin against the Spirit of God. One cannot grieve a force, power or energy. Why? Because it is a thing, not a being. The Holy Spirit is a being. As the bible states that He is. " For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." 1John 5:7,8 NKJV "Messiah Yeshua is the One who came by water and blood—not by water only, but by water and blood. The Ruach is the One who testifies, because the Ruach is the truth. For there are three that testify— the Ruach, the water, and the blood—and these three are one. 1 John 5:6-8 Tree of Life bible. The Complete Jewish bible is almost the same translation as the Tree of Life bible. Dualism- 1.As a worldview, the belief that the "real" is of two kinds, or in two ultimate controlling powers. Thus, metaphysical dualism may oppose matter to SPIRIT, while dualistic religion involves belief in two eternally conflicting principles. Modified dualism holds God to be ambivalent, both benevolent and malevolent. 2. A view of man as consisting of two substances, physical (flesh, body) and mental or spiritual (mind, soul, spirit). Nestorian taught this. No where in the bible does it ever state that we are made up of two parts. We are made up of three parts, spirit, soul and body. "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV "May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Complete Jewish Bible. Other parts of the bible it shows the differences of what is the spirit, what is the soul and what is the flesh. Some people confuse the soul and spirit. Sometimes people say the soul and spirit are both the same, which they are not. The best book that would be very good to study on the tri-part being of man is Watchman Nee's book called, "The Spiritual Man" He uses every verse to back up the spirit, soul and body. And he breaks down each part and how they all work. If you want to know how the flesh and the soul works against the spirit and the Spirit of God, that book will give you an understanding. Our flesh and soul are always in constant battle against the spirit and the Spirit of God. Moriah Ruth
I can only see the Ruach as a seperate personality, because I have seen Him, in a vision for the Kingdom, when I asked how we would be taught, and how we would have the one-on-one companionship we want from Yeshua, when Yeshua will be busy in the Temple/Court, ruling the world. Whether the Ruach has a Body, well, as of YHVH, surely that is up to them?
And before that I have always thought of Him as YHVH, just as much is Yehsua is...it's just a different purpose, or manifestion for a special purpose. And yet, They are Elohim, and yet Echad. One.
Bless you Moriah Ruth!
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Post by alon on Mar 16, 2014 23:49:09 GMT -8
... What I have seen in my vision has been more conceptual of a large/small duality that is encompassed, or exists upon a third all encompassing sea, and are, within the confines of my vision more like a continuously changing state of being, from sea, to wave, to curling inwards upon itself, and forming the teardrop shaped Yin/Yang, before re-combining into the sea again. You have to realize that visions are not concepts, but what one sees graphically, and then has a great deal of trouble describing in existing concepts. A Yin/Yang symbol for instance is just such a concept...static, and without life or movement. ...
See, I can envision a Yin Yang symbol, and come to a fair (though not complete) understanding of it.
But I can no more imagine the human soul or spirit than I can the Creator who breathed life into a lump of clay molded into every muscle fiber, neuron and hair follicle that makes up the average man. I've heard both sides- Baptists say that there is just body and soul (and spirit and soul are the same) while Assemblies say the spirit is between soul and body and is where our thoughts and emotions reside. But honestly, most of their arguments are more philosophical than scriptural- though like everything else the last 2000 yrs, they are pretty good at couching it all in theological terminology so the average guy (me) is more confused at the end of the day than when he woke up all blissful and not worried about such weighty matters ...
Be interesting to see how this one shakes out here.
Dan  C |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 4:40:46 GMT -8
Yin and Yang are from Chinese thought and religion. It is also New Age thought and occultic. No where in the bible is Yin Yang spoken of.
The Holy Spirit is God, not separate to Himself. He works with the Holy God who is the Spirit of God. God, Yeshua and Holy Spirit work as one.
The bible is very clear on the tri-part of man. Who can argue with the bible and God's words? No one.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 4:46:24 GMT -8
Questor,
You stated, "I am trying to get at what IS the mind, the heart, the soul, the spirit...which is of human or G-dly origin...which tends to the physical, which to the spiritual, and where emotion comes in, since they act on the flesh, and yet stem from what...mind? soul? spirit?"
Read, "The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee. The book will answer all your questions. It is a very deep study. It is a thick book with three volumes. He breaks each one down and explains what each tri-part is, how it works and how each part affects us as believers in Yeshua.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Mar 17, 2014 10:08:21 GMT -8
Yin and Yang are from Chinese thought and religion. It is also New Age thought and occultic. No where in the bible is Yin Yang spoken of. The Holy Spirit is God, not separate to Himself. He works with the Holy God who is the Spirit of God. God, Yeshua and Holy Spirit work as one. The bible is very clear on the tri-part of man. Who can argue with the bible and God's words? No one. Moriah Ruth
My point here was, however (since Questor brought it up), I can come much closer to understanding this foreign diagram representing very deep thought and many concepts on a variety of topics and levels than I can to understanding the spiritual component of my being that was breathed into me by an infinite God. Probably the relatively few centuries of theologians (as opposed to the many centuries of philosophers, both eastern and western) have muddied the waters sufficiently to confuse even the most astute Bible student.
My philosophy to this point has been to try, with the help of the Ruach HaChodesh, to work on everything possible that BOTH camps say are involved in the spirit and soul, and let God divide out what He wants me to take with me when I go.
Dan C |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 17, 2014 16:12:56 GMT -8
Shalom! I was just wondering if anyone can show some verses from the  that mention or show Spirit, Soul, and the physical body as mentioned above? Remember we have to be able to show it in the or we cannot build a doctrine on it since that is the foundation. This is one of the biggest problems with the Watchman Knee is they don't think the is still for today so everything will be under the filter of doing things backwards (New Testament first then dictating and the prophets off of that) It is an easy mistake to get in the habit of so that is why I am challenging everyone to look into the and see if this type of thinking still works. Blessings! Yedidyah |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 17:15:31 GMT -8
Yedidyah, I did post scripture to back up what I stated in my post earlier. Sorry you did not see them. "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV "May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Complete Jewish Bible. There are other references also. And just because most authors are not observant does not mean that their insight into other areas of scripture is wrong. I have no issues with Watchman Nee's book Spiritual Man. Because he uses all the verses to relate to the spirit, soul and body. And the bible is also very clear that there is tri-part man. Not two parts. It seems to me that a lot of Messianic believers really like to discredit Christians. They do have some things right and they also have truth. Maybe not all the truth. However I will leave this with God. Blessings to you all. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 17:17:54 GMT -8
Alon,
You are entitled to your thoughts and beliefs. However God never spoke of Yin and Yang in His word, nor did He relate to it. But I will let this rest. Blessings to you.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 17, 2014 17:30:31 GMT -8
Yedidyah, I did post scripture to back up what I stated in my post earlier. Sorry you did not see them. "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV "May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Complete Jewish Bible. There are other references also. And just because most authors are not observant does not mean that their insight into other areas of scripture is wrong. I have no issues with Watchman Nee's book Spiritual Man. Because he uses all the verses to relate to the spirit, soul and body. And the bible is also very clear that there is tri-part man. Not two parts. It seems to me that a lot of Messianic believers really like to discredit Christians. They do have some things right and they also have truth. Maybe not all the truth. However I will leave this with God. Blessings to you all. Moriah Ruth I read the verses you posted but asked if you could back that logic using the . Please do read my post again  The Shema for instance does not mention loving Hashem with all your Spirit, it does mention the Soul. Why does everyone think the "Spirit" is theirs? Do we have scripture to back this up? I just think this is deeper and more complicated than some try to make it. Shalom, Yedidyah |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 17:57:43 GMT -8
I thought that I was very clear on what I stated. I am not familiar with the Shema. As for the , what has the law got to do with Questor's question? And for me to really search into this I would need lots of time to search it out more, however I do not have that privilege now that I have two jobs and a husband to take care of. I be fortunate if I can find time to study. Man makes God's word difficult only because they do not understand it. I have no issue with the spirit, soul and body or the tri-part of man. In my thinking it is very simple. And I see the differences in the word of God. Again I would need more time to search them out. When I do, I will definetly share them. Yedidyah, please don't think that I am attacking you personally, because that is not my doing. I think we are all learning and desiring to know the truth of God's word. I don't claim that I have all the answers. Yet I believe that man's thoughts and opinions do get in the way of God's word. And now I am going to go and get some sleep. Early day tomorrow at the school. Blessings to all. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 17, 2014 18:04:34 GMT -8
I thought that I was very clear on what I stated. I am not familiar with the Shema. As for the , what has the law got to do with Questor's question? And for me to really search into this I would need lots of time to search it out more, however I do not have that privilege now that I have two jobs and a husband to take care of. I be fortunate if I can find time to study. Man makes God's word difficult only because they do not understand it. I have no issue with the spirit, soul and body or the tri-part of man. In my thinking it is very simple. And I see the differences in the word of God. Again I would need more time to search them out. When I do, I will definetly share them. Yedidyah, please don't think that I am attacking you personally, because that is not my doing. I think we are all learning and desiring to know the truth of God's word. I don't claim that I have all the answers. Yet I believe that man's thoughts and opinions do get in the way of God's word. And now I am going to go and get some sleep. Early day tomorrow at the school. Blessings to all. Moriah Ruth Shalom! Don't worry, I in no way thought you were attacking We are all learning that is the great part of study! Blessings, Yedidyah |
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Post by alon on Mar 17, 2014 18:44:26 GMT -8
... And just because most authors are not observant does not mean that their insight into other areas of scripture is wrong. I have no issues with Watchman Nee's book Spiritual Man. Because he uses all the verses to relate to the spirit, soul and body. And the bible is also very clear that there is tri-part man. Not two parts. It seems to me that a lot of Messianic believers really like to discredit Christians. They do have some things right and they also have truth. Maybe not all the truth. However I will leave this with God. Blessings to you all. ...
As Yedidyah says, is our foundation. Much more than "the Law" (Law is a Christian misinterpretation anyhow), it is God's instructions for holy living. It is also the explanation of His redemptive plan from the foundation of the earth. He never changes, neither do His instructions nor His plan. It is in we are first introduced to the character of God and hinted at the three ways He interacts with us.
Yedidyah, the only thing I can think of where we might see man as body, soul and spirit in is that God revealed Himself as Father, Son and Spirit; He also patterned the family as man, woman, child. He is a God of order and consistency, so I can see how we might be tripartite beings as well. Then again, that is reading a lot in, and might be just splitting hairs as well.
As for liking to bash Christians- I could get all sanctimonious and say thee nay (little KJV/Shakespearian lingo there), but honestly, it can be quite entertaining at times ... however I'm not a complete butthead. I let the argument drop and my Christian friend thinks he finally won an argument with me. Like I told my wife, there'd be no point in just destroying the guy as he's all fired up and deciding whether he wants to go into the pulpit or into counseling. He's not going to change his mind, and as our own great Shakespearian of the South, Samuel Clemens once said (probably quoting Ben Franklin, but he's a Yankee so he doesn't count), "Never try and teach a pig to sing. You'll just waste your time and annoy the pig." Apropriate parallels there too ..., I wonder if either of them was Messianic ... ?
Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 3:35:41 GMT -8
Thank you Yedidyah for understanding. Alon, not ALL Christians discredit the OT. Some yes. The ones that I know use the OT and the NT together. Do they teach ? No. Yet they teach on forgiveness, God's love, His grace, mercy and forgiveness They teach on how to hear God for themselves, to look to Him for their answers, etc. However I do not see where in the Messianic groups where this is being taught. It is always the Law, the Law. Nothing else. Yes, it is good to know about the law and the Jewish history and writings, but there is more to God then just the law. What do the Messianics do when there is someone hurting, or a child being abused in the family, or one is having anger issues, etc? Where is the help for them, the encouragement and prayers for them? I asked this once to a Messianic man who has been in the MJ for over 30 years. Do you know what he told me? He stated, "I can honestly and shamefully say that it is sadly lacking. Meaning there is no help for these people or counsel". That is all the MJs talk about is the , Jewish history and it's writings, but never on God's love, what to do if there are issues in the family, how to hear and discern God's voice. There is none of that. I have been exposed to MJ for now 6-7yrs. Please don't think that I am attacking anyone here when I say this. The MJs are just as messed up as the Christians are. Many of them have taken their garbage and thought patterns from the Christian mindset over to the MJ mindset. And they try to fit them both together. I have talked with many. Where is God's heart in the MJ? Sorry to have to vent like this, but seriously when one starts attacking the Christians and how wrong they are, MJs need to look at their own hearts and thoughts before condemning someone else. And now I feel like this  . Time for me to dunk my head in the snow bank again. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2014 6:12:41 GMT -8
Alon, not ALL Christians discredit the OT. Some yes. The ones that I know use the OT and the NT together. Do they teach ? No. Yet they teach on forgiveness, God's love, His grace, mercy and forgiveness They teach on how to hear God for themselves, to look to Him for their answers, etc. However I do not see where in the Messianic groups where this is being taught. It is always the Law, the Law. Nothing else. Yes, it is good to know about the law and the Jewish history and writings, but there is more to God then just the law.
I'm aware that there are some congregations in Christianity who do not fit this mold, and I'm very happy you've found one. The AoG church where I attend is also very supportive and sometimes generous to a fault. However "friendly fire" still gets you all too often.
I'd guess this varies by congregation. Many MJ groups are just starting out and might have difficulty meeting needs. Others may not care, but again I'd say there are many who fly the MJ banner and are no more partakers of God than my dog. The synagog I'm affiliated with has dealt with these kinds of problems, and quite effectively.
Then you have been too focused on the problems where you are and havn't read what is here with an open mind. Yes, we take everything back to . It is our foundation. I went shooting with my son yesterday, and when either of us had a problem, we went back to the basics to straighten it out. This is true of any discipline you can name- everything goes back to basics if you have a problem in higher application. The universe is designed like that, because the Creator is a God of order; and our basics are in .
I think all the active posters here are mature enough to not get offended so easily. And I agree that we all, when we first make the move to MJ, carry a lot of baggage, misconceptions and wrong thinking with us from our experiences in Christianity. That is why open discussion is so important to us, that we can get rid of a lot of wrong thinking. The fact that many do not move on probably accounts for the ones you speak of who know only to shout "" and ignore the problems in their midst. Shouting "" doesn't make anyone an MJ, and ignoring problems just makes one a better Christian, really.
That is pretty much just a universal truth, right there. We all need to do this in every aspect of our lives from time to time.
Well, hope you have a good soak!
Dan (like this too) C
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- there are 70 faces to 
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