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Post by jimmie on Mar 18, 2014 7:17:45 GMT -8
In  (first five books), man is generally describe as being a living soul. However Gen 41:8 & 45:27, Ex 6:9 and Deut 2:30 indicate that man has a spirit. In God is generally describe as being a spirit. However, Lev 26:ll&30 indicate that God has a soul. Through out , man is describe as being filled with different spirits: God, wisdom, knowledge, jealously etc. all of which animate the soul. A tech savvy analogy would be a computer/soul which consists of hardware/body and software(computer programs)/spirit. The hardware/body can’t do any computing without the software/spirit. So what happens when the computer/soul dies. Software is stored on jump drive. Spirit returns to the Lord. Recorded in the Book of Life. Hardware is thrown away. Body returns to the dust of the earth. Computer waiting for new hardware to arrive. Soul sleeps until resurrection. Install software on new hardware. Works even better than the old computer. Spirit is installed into a new body and is ever with the Lord. Well done servant. Install software on new hardware. Software is corrupted. Through it out. Spirit is installed into a new body and is judged wonting and thrown into outer darkness. There will we weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2014 8:06:47 GMT -8
In (first five books), man is generally describe as being a living soul. However Gen 41:8 & 45:27, Ex 6:9 and Deut 2:30 indicate that man has a spirit. In God is generally describe as being a spirit. However, Lev 26:ll&30 indicate that God has a soul.
Where is there any indication that they are not the same thing?
Before you can make this claim, you must first prove that there is a separate part of our being where these can abide apart from the soul. You assume this to be true, however some of us do not make that assumption. I don't know myself, but I'm not willing to make a commitment based on someone else's assumptions.
A really good analogy, I suppose, if a.) your audience is tech savvy (I'm technically illiterate myself), and b.) they agree with your basic assumption. Otherwise you are comparing apples to rocks- living, divinely inspired beings and inanimate objects.
The CJB gives a better interpretation of the word "spirit".
Gen 41:8 In the morning he found himself so upset that he summoned all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men. Pharaoh told them his dreams, but no one there could interpret them for him.
Gen 45:27 So they reported to him everything Yosef had said to them; but it was only when he saw the wagons which Yosef had sent to carry him that the spirit of Ya'akov their father began to revive.
I read these first in the NAS, and they seemed to be speaking of feelings more than a spiritual part of our being.
(told yu I was tec-illiterate. Somehow posted before it was finished)
Any way, long point made quickly: it is usually the feelings based denominations which, in my experience at least, push the thought that we have a separate spirit which links our bodies and souls. They may be correct, but I just haven't seen compelling evidence to support their claim.
You do have a decent inductive argument for there being a separate spirit in us, but induction is the weakest form of proof.
Dan C |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 18, 2014 8:16:17 GMT -8
Thank you Yedidyah for understanding. Alon, not ALL Christians discredit the OT. Some yes. The ones that I know use the OT and the NT together. Do they teach ? No. Yet they teach on forgiveness, God's love, His grace, mercy and forgiveness They teach on how to hear God for themselves, to look to Him for their answers, etc. However I do not see where in the Messianic groups where this is being taught. It is always the Law, the Law. Nothing else. Yes, it is good to know about the law and the Jewish history and writings, but there is more to God then just the law. What do the Messianics do when there is someone hurting, or a child being abused in the family, or one is having anger issues, etc? Where is the help for them, the encouragement and prayers for them? I asked this once to a Messianic man who has been in the MJ for over 30 years. Do you know what he told me? He stated, "I can honestly and shamefully say that it is sadly lacking. Meaning there is no help for these people or counsel". That is all the MJs talk about is the , Jewish history and it's writings, but never on God's love, what to do if there are issues in the family, how to hear and discern God's voice. There is none of that. I have been exposed to MJ for now 6-7yrs. Please don't think that I am attacking anyone here when I say this. The MJs are just as messed up as the Christians are. Many of them have taken their garbage and thought patterns from the Christian mindset over to the MJ mindset. And they try to fit them both together. I have talked with many. Where is God's heart in the MJ? Sorry to have to vent like this, but seriously when one starts attacking the Christians and how wrong they are, MJs need to look at their own hearts and thoughts before condemning someone else. And now I feel like this  . Time for me to dunk my head in the snow bank again. Moriah Ruth Shalom! I think alon answered the questions above pretty well but something that needs to be pointed out. For one is love and if someone still cannot see that then they need to go back into the books and read it with a better understanding. Second of all if one is following everything you brought up is being taken care of not neglected. The problem is when debates or anyone asks a biblical question like we have seen in this thread everyone is so willing to base their ideas on only NT verses without first looking into the . I am going to be frank here, If one cannot find their doctrine starting in the then they have no business teaching it simple as that. Jimmie brought up some great points going into the first and that is what I was asking for. Most of the main stream church teaches the soul is more carnal, that it is the thing that weighs more to the ways of this world. I think the Soul when nurtured by the Spirit longs to be closer to Hashem while the flesh longs to return to dust. I don't think the Spirit is ours but something that belongs to Hashem alone. Why does so many have to build some kind of trinity doctrine on man anyways? Yedidyah |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 17:15:45 GMT -8
I am going to go and sit in my little wee corner and think. Before I do that though, I am not discrediting everything that is MJ. In the ones that I have been involved with seem to be lacking in many areas and are constantly being pushy with their or law. I agree with what Alon had stated and Yedidyah. I have no issue with that. However we are entitled to our thoughts and how we see scripture and we share them. We may not all agree, but does this give us the right to discredit other faiths and beliefs? No. And Alon, I am not being negative about MJ at all. I was just sharing my frustration on those I have been in contact with thus far. I know there are good ones out there for I have talked with them also. But I am here and they are many miles away from me. I enjoy coming here and learning, even though I may not agree with some things. But I do respect everyone's thoughts and ideas. Really in my thinking God has the answers, man doesn't. Man may think that they have it right, but they don't and man's flesh and thoughts do get in the way of Him speaking His truth to us. Even I am guilty of that. Even though I am totally new to and the thoughts process of it, I do get frustrated. I was introduced to MJ by a young MJ man 6-7 yrs ago. Him and I would talk many a time and I would ask him questions. Now for those of you who were also in the Christian faith and converted to MJ, you also were probably frustrated. So I am hoping for better understanding of where I am coming from. It is not easy. Especially when one is married to a pastor who teaches the bible. My husband and I have our disagreements when it comes to the . And then when I go to those who do understand the , their mindset is a bit confusing, or they are really being pushy or condemning. It is not that I am rejecting it, I am trying to understand it and how it fits into my own life. Let's put it this way. I am in the middle of Christianity and MJ. I see both sides yet I haven't made up my mind as to which I would go with. Christianity or MJ. Inside my mind it is like a ping pong ball going back and forth. Eventually it will stop to one or the other. This is where I am at, at this moment in time. Yes, I can agree that Christmas and Easter are pagan. I can agree that there are other pagan doings in the Christian church and false teachings, such as replacement theology and many others. I can agree that Yeshua did not do away with the law. My other frustration is not having another MJ here in the city where I can go with my questions or my thoughts. If I really wanted to I can go all out and do the , however it is not as easy, when one walks the path alone. Especially if the spouse does not want to. It is like I have to compromise on certain issues of the in order to keep peace in the home. Now do you understand where I am coming from? Also if I had more time to study the then I would be well on my way. To be honest I wouldn't even know where to start. I am sharing my heart's cry hoping that someone would understand. Ok.. enough of that. Time to go and sit in my corner and think. I didn't say pout, I said think. I do too much of that. Think. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2014 17:55:28 GMT -8
... is love and if someone still cannot see that then they need to go back into the books and read it with a better understanding. ... Yedidyah
I only claim that the spirit returns to the LORD. It is describe as being recorded in the Book of Life. It is describe as being present with the LORD. But our soul's hope is in the resurrection. When the spirit is placed into a new body. Jimmie
Well, OK, but ...
Dan  C |
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2014 18:50:22 GMT -8
... In the ones that I have been involved with seem to be lacking in many areas and are constantly being pushy with their or law. ... However we are entitled to our thoughts and how we see scripture and we share them. We may not all agree, but does this give us the right to discredit other faiths and beliefs? No.
We are entitled to our opinions, true enough. And we are not entitled to just bash any thing; and that is an important distinction- we discuss things- doctrines, opinions, good and evil, denominations or sects- we don't just bash people. But we need to be able to back up our own ideas, not just spout opinions.
I know you have a good heart, and are not just attacking MJ. I can be a bit forceful in my arguments at times (blame it on being a Baptist PK), so I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking or disrespecting you. I feel for your situation there, as mine is similar. It is tough when you come to the realization that much of what you've been taught all your life is false, and your spouse is vehemently opposed to even acknowledging the possibility. Worse, you and I are both relatively new to this, and so are making more discoveries all the time about errors in our thinking or what we've been taught. That is a hard row to hoe alone.
The worst part about your situation is that apparently those in your area who should know and MJ apparently do not. They seem to hide behind the word "" like it is the Shield of Faith! So you are left to an internet forum for your support group. Since you can't see expressions or hear inflection, it is easy to misunderstand or read something into a statement that wasn't intended. And really, we have a few thinkers here, but other than admin it doesn't sound like any of us are that far along in our understanding. We are still looking, and that is what brings us together here. But at least we all seem to be looking for the truth, which is a rarity on the net.
According to my Rabbi, you are correct- you will eventually end up in one or the other. I know I am all in with MJ. Like I told my wife, if I did ever leave MJ I couldn't go back to a lie. It'd be the last time I left the faith, and it would destroy me. But please God that never happens. However it is difficult walking on eggshells all the time, afraid you are going to offend your spouse with an innocent word. Worse, if anyone at church says something then it is assumed that I am the "bad guy" because I am, after all, MJ! So yes, I do know where you are coming from, and I can feel for you. Worse you are the wife of a pastor, and I can from experience growing up a PK understand your plight there.
You were correct earlier when you said that God has the truth. My advice is to keep seeking truth, and when you find it hide it in your heart. You do have a biblical mandate to support your husband, and in his case that means his ministry. You are also correct that, while Christianity is very flawed due to its pagan roots, it is not all wrong either. I don't know why God put me in this spot, but perhaps you are there to be an influence on your husband. There was a very deep theological concept expressed by the mother of the bride in the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"; "It is true the man is the head of the family. But the wife is the neck, and she can turn the head annnny way she wants!"
Just hang in there, and seek God's word for the truth. Take anything you see here as opinion; our understanding of the truth at this moment. And my own understanding changes often, the more I read and search myself. Search it out for yourself. You will, as I do, have to sit silent in the face of more and more error as your understanding deepens. Just remember, it is not either of our place to go in and disrupt, and we are not responsible to tell anyone the truth if they do not want to know it. God will bring those He wants to us in His time. I just pray that at some time it will be our spouses.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 4:48:44 GMT -8
Thank you Alon for understanding. Well, I did my thinking in my little wee corner. The one thing that comes to mind is being patient with myself as I learn and it's ways. It is not an easy path. As for what Yedidyah stated, "For one is love and if someone still cannot see that then they need to go back into the books and read it with a better understanding. Second of all if one is following everything you brought up is being taken care of not neglected." Could the is love be more explained please? As for the rest of the statement I am still pondering on that. Now back to Alon. "Just guessing, because I don't know the MJ folk there where you are- but when we lack understanding and are not willing to put ourselves out there to learn the deeper truths, it is easy to find one thing and over-stress that one point. Shouting "!" may be their way of avoiding having to answer the the harder questions, or to put their ideas up to be questioned."
"The worst part about your situation is that apparently those in your area who should know and MJ apparently do not. They seem to hide behind the word "" like it is the Shield of Faith!"
There is a lady here in my city who states that she is MJ, however when I try to talk to her, she doesn't want to talk about the . It is like she is afraid that I may disagree with her, which I haven't, or that I am going to condemn her, which I haven't done. I just ask her a simple question and she hesitates or just simply walks away. I certainly can't learn from that. Then there is one of my friend's husband who whenever you ask him a question or maybe disagree with him, he gets really angry and starts condemning those who do not believe as he does. I certainly can't learn from that either. Him and his wife are always in constant battles with disagreements all the time. Whenever one goes to their home they can feel the strife and tension. Who can learn from that? Certainly not I. And you are right Alon, I have been learning most of MJ from forums and chat rooms. More so from forums. The one forum I had to back away from because all they were doing was beating the crap out of each other. How can one learn from that? Certainly not me. However I feel much safer here. I can ask questions and no one is going to condemn me for asking or get angry. Even if I share my thoughts and frustrations I will not be condemned. So I do thank Father God for people such as yourself and Yedidyah. I may not understand everything and I try not to get frustrated or impatient with others or myself. As you stated Alon, it is a learning process. YEDIDYAH, I do see now what you are saying when you stated that everything points to the . If I may include that it also points to a Holy God. The other thing that you stated in one of your posts to my ranting is if it also is included in the OT and not just the NT. I agree with you on this. It is when I was reading Questor's question with regards to the spirit man, those verses from the NT had come to mind. So I shared them. I pray that I was not bashing anyone in this forum. If I was please put me out of my misery, quick. However I was just sharing what I believed in my heart was right and scripture. Also I do back up what I try to say with scripture. I think the other issue for me is people's wording or maybe how they phrase what they are trying to get across. Much misunderstanding can occur if one is not careful in their wording. But this is just my thinking. So I will continue on this path of searching and try to be patient with myself. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by jimmie on Mar 19, 2014 5:36:03 GMT -8
Thank you Alon for understanding. Could the is love be more explained please? Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. |
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Post by alon on Mar 19, 2014 20:16:25 GMT -8
... is love and if someone still cannot see that then they need to go back into the books and read it with a better understanding. ... Yedidyah Well, OK, but ...
I bolded and colored some of the more interesting points, even from a source heavily immersed in Christian doctrine. Obedience, repentance, and works!? And practical instead of just emotional response is love?! But then, why are Messianics demonized for saying these things? Must be 'cause they love us ...
Dan (feel th' lu-u-u-uv) C |
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Post by Questor on Mar 20, 2014 1:39:20 GMT -8
I am going to go and sit in my little wee corner and think. Before I do that though, I am not discrediting everything that is MJ. In the ones that I have been involved with seem to be lacking in many areas and are constantly being pushy with their or law. I agree with what Alon had stated and Yedidyah. I have no issue with that. However we are entitled to our thoughts and how we see scripture and we share them. We may not all agree, but does this give us the right to discredit other faiths and beliefs? No. And Alon, I am not being negative about MJ at all. I was just sharing my frustration on those I have been in contact with thus far. I know there are good ones out there for I have talked with them also. But I am here and they are many miles away from me. Oddly, Moriah Ruth, I understand what you are saying. I sometimes feel when I am talking/chatting/posting with MJ's or Jews not yet of Messianic faith that their thinking is very circumscribed. They see the , and the ins and outs of the Oral Teachings, and the commentary on the teachings which is the Talmud, but it is more like being in a law school than it is in a sharing of how to get your mind and flesh to do something so foreign to it in the language of Christianese. They are, to a great degree, bounded in their thoughts by what all those rules and regs are...all the precedents on how one should think, and believe, and be, and do. There is very little Greco/Roman influence on how they think, and therefore, they are a little at a loss with the Christians they meet, and because many Christians do not even value the Tanakh, much less the , and have so blatantly different customs of thinking and speaking about G-d, MJ's wonder if Christians are truly Believers.
MJ's do all the love that Christians describe when they talk about their constant attempts at obedience, and they do that love with each Mitzvah that they perform, by their system of ethics, and cultural constraints...but they do not phrase it in a way that can be understood easily by those only accustomed to the Christian Church. They do not speak readily of applying the commandments and teachings of the because it is so much a part of their day that most of what they do is automatic. Even as they say their prayers in a prescribed manner, and put their shoes on in a specific order, or keep different foods in different refrigerators, and never allow their meat and dairy plates and silverware to be used by the wrong food. Much of this is culture and custom, and is not required by YHVH for non-Jews, and probably not always for Jews, but those commandments and instructions that are in the should be kept by us to our utmost ability.
Some of the things that Christian Believers say freely and openly is a more intimate matter to a Messianic Jew, something between him and YHVH, or him and Yeshua, and not to be spoken of except in reverence. And just like one denomination in Christianity is different from another...Baptists to Protestants...to Holy Rollers...to Catholics or Anglicans, Christians speak in the terms of the inward walk that is specified in the Brit Chadashah, and they try to do the inward walk, but do not think they must also do the outer walk of the as it is written in Scripture. Most Christians believe if their heart is right, that their actions will flow from it, and to a point they are correct. But they are not in obedience simply by getting their heart right. It is true that out of the heart the mouth speaks, and even as Christians speak, so is their life, but they are ignoring the basic life instructions that connect them to YHVH, and MJ's and this MG (Messianic Gentile) finds that to be a incomplete way of living as a Believer in Yeshua.
It takes a lot to convince a Christian that they should not work on Saturday, but even if they have Saturdays off, as so many people do, they do not yet see the need for a day, devoted to rest, and to the sacred things of YHVH...to set apart a day, holy unto the Lord every week, and not do their shopping, or their errands. They do not see the value of obedience to YHVH being its own reward, nor that if they just re-arranged their schedule a bit during the week, or after church on Sunday, they could get those errands and shopping done, and set aside that day unto YHVH. For my friends, keeping Shabbat even in the simplistic way that I do it...not working, and spending the day talking, writing, and studying about YHVH, Yeshua, the Holy Spirit, and everything to do with them. And it was hard for me to figure out how to spend all those hours in physical & spiritual rest...for there is nothing so restful as communing with G-d.
Christians don't think it matters enough to obey the commandments as written. It takes a lot more for a Christian to take down their carvings and crosses that they use as a remembrance of Yeshua...they have been trained to think that is not only okay, but required, and that taking down every image from their home seems to them to be wrong. I manage to have no Crosses or Crucifixes, but I have one little carving that was my Dad's that I keep in memory of him, and since it is just what it is, a small white porcelain parrot, I feel sure that YHVH will not be displeased with me, as I certainly don't view it as a god, or bow down to it. But then, I am used to the Holy Spirit telling me when something is wrong, and many Christians aren't really doing that much.
Skipping Christmas, and keeping Chanuchah presumably takes away the beauty of the season that Christians still see in the nativity scenes, and the Christmas Carols, their Christmas lights, and their yule tree and holly that are strictly Druidic, if only they would investigate it. They do not see that all of that is cultural throwbacks to pagan practices adopted by the Roman and Greek churches to make it easier for pagans to convert in the early days, and to also set the Jewish Christians of the early Church to one side. They see a sunrise service on Easter as most holy indeed, because it is when Yeshua rose, and they are probably only about 11 hours off in their observance; while they don't keep the Sedar at Passover because all the customs associated with it are mostly from Judaic Culture, growing up around the original keeping of the Passover. Most Christians hardly even notice the Passover at all, much less the feast of unleavened bread. They forget that all the Easter stuff are homage to Ashtoreth/Diana/Venus, and merely think it a charming custom, that reminds them of their childhood. (I myself miss my See's Candy Egg's...but I over-do regular See's candy in early May for my Birthday instead.) Only in the last ten years have Christians even begun to even talk about what the feasts mean as a picture of Yeshua's life, but they don't go so far as to think about keeping the feasts.
Skipping the Christian customs and the Jewish customs is the reason that I am really only a Messianic Gentile (MG)...someone who thoroughly understands where the Christians are coming from, but find it lacking in what they do, and why they do not do it, so that I have wandered into keeping by only the leading of the Holy Spirit, and not by any conviction from the scriptures. I know the scriptures are there...but they did not convince me...the Ruach haKodesh did. Once I had figured out how to make a Sabbath day for myself on the right day, from sunset to sunset, I moved to the daily prayers and blessings...not that I say all the Jewish prayers, but that I say prayers morning and evening, starting with the 'Shma, in Hebrew, for I like to sing it, and then move on to my customary prayers. But that doesn't keep me from all the other communion I have with YHVH all day, nor the prayers that I say as the Holy Spirit brings them to mind. This MG actually read the Old Testament before I read the New one, and understood it first, and better. It took me years to match all the concepts of the Brit Chadashah. with the Tanakh, but one I had it, I knew I was not doing my duty to YHVH. Christians don't think of duty much these days...it's out of fashion.
Being an MG, rather than an MJ, I have had to look at Christians and MJ's and see that there is a place in the middle, that incorporates all of the , and all of scriptural Christianity, by discarding both sets of customs, and by merging the two languages (word patterns and special words and statements) of Christianity, and Messianic Judaism. Christians and Messianic Jews will find that there can be a different place where anyone is welcome if they love Yeshua. If Christians just knew that those not doing the bare minimum of as given by YHVH in the will find themselves in the Kingdom to come with their salvation intact, but their blessings less than they could have been had they chosen to be obedient, they would be eager for , but even without the adoption of the Judaic Culture that wraps the into the life of the MJ, Christians instantly stick at the idea of Law and Works, not understanding the difference between obedience to , and obedience to Rabbinical Judaism.
But obedience has been out of fashion in the Christian world for well over a hundred years, and what obedience that is required is to the specific Christian denomination's culture, rules and regs, not to YHVH's desires, nor Yeshua's teachings. Christians may read their Bible, as they say they do, but if they stray into the Tanakh, it will not be for the first five books of the Scriptures, but only into the Psalms, or the Proverbs, and maybe to the Prophets. On every Christian Forum I have ever belonged to, there is very little usage of scripture from the Tanakh, except when discussing prophecy and eschatology. Besides, Christians are not wrong when they say that if they do all that is in the Brit Chadashah, they are keeping ...which they seem to think is just the First Ten Commandments. If they can do Yeshua's walk perfectly, they are being Observant in many ways...just not all. The other instructions in the Christians think they are exempt from, because of the decision at Jerusalem by James that there was only a minimum of requirements for Gentiles and Jews to break bread together. Christians nowadays think that means those few directives is all they ever had to do to be included in a Nazarene congregation. Christians today don't understand they were Jewish teachings being done on the Sabbath each week, and like any other proselyte to Judaism, the newcomers would hear the read every Saturday, and gradually learn the commandments and instructions of the that applied to them, particularly as it takes three years to get through . At the end of the three years, living in, or near the Jewish community that were Believers, the First Century Christians would have been very Jewish...they just would not have an additional 2000 years of Rabbinical teaching wrapped into their lives. To the First Century Messianic Jews they would have been considered Righteous Gentiles, and the more observant they were, the more they would be accepted.
For an MJ to learn to speak like a Christian these days, he would need to spend a lot of time on TBN or Daystar, listening to the talk shows, and the sermons, and hearing the worship to learn how to discuss the Brit Chadashah as Christians do. I doubt that many would stomach it...I am often nauseated by what I hear, and I am used to hearing it. Christianese is often an emotional language that describes how we are learning and doing and being with Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. MJ's can certainly be passionate about their beliefs, but without quoting the underlying scripture to prove what they say, or at least referring to it, just as a lawyer would do in a court of law, they are unlikely to speak of the same topics that Christians do. Christians speak about all the ins and outs of attempting to walk after Yeshua...MJ's are already doing much of that from their childhood, or in Alon's case, putting on Messianic Judaism as quickly as he can understand it and apply it. But Alon, speaks both Old testament and New Testament, as he has lived from birth in a Christian household, and is currently studying in depth all that is Messianic Judaism. But oddly, the same way a truly serious Christian can speak day after day of the grace and favor he has received to do what he needs to do, how he is striving to act in love by doing this or that, MJ's speak about the continuously, and about what law they were considering, how to apply it in what circumstance, and how to judge between the competing demands of laws that are partially in opposition to each in some cases. It is a problem of focus, and of lack of knowledge of each other's religious language...not a lack of good will. MJ's already have most of the walk taught them from birth, and while the Brit Chadashah is somewhat new territory for them, it isn't truly foreign to their thought. Christians on the other hand, because of the initial decree by the Jerusalem Church think they are exempt from in their life, when they are only exempt from for their salvation.
I enjoy coming here and learning, even though I may not agree with some things. But I do respect everyone's thoughts and ideas. Really in my thinking God has the answers, man doesn't. Man may think that they have it right, but they don't and man's flesh and thoughts do get in the way of Him speaking His truth to us. Even I am guilty of that. Even though I am totally new to and the thoughts process of it, I do get frustrated. I was introduced to MJ by a young MJ man 6-7 yrs ago. Him and I would talk many a time and I would ask him questions. Now for those of you who were also in the Christian faith and converted to MJ, you also were probably frustrated. So I am hoping for better understanding of where I am coming from. It is not easy. Especially when one is married to a pastor who teaches the bible. My husband and I have our disagreements when it comes to the . And then when I go to those who do understand the , their mindset is a bit confusing, or they are really being pushy or condemning. It is not that I am rejecting it, I am trying to understand it and how it fits into my own life. Let's put it this way. I am in the middle of Christianity and MJ. I see both sides yet I haven't made up my mind as to which I would go with. Christianity or MJ. Inside my mind it is like a ping pong ball going back and forth. Eventually it will stop to one or the other. This is where I am at, at this moment in time. Yes, I can agree that Christmas and Easter are pagan. I can agree that there are other pagan doings in the Christian church and false teachings, such as replacement theology and many others. I can agree that Yeshua did not do away with the law. My other frustration is not having another MJ here in the city where I can go with my questions or my thoughts. If I really wanted to I can go all out and do the , however it is not as easy, when one walks the path alone. Especially if the spouse does not want to. It is like I have to compromise on certain issues of the in order to keep peace in the home. Now do you understand where I am coming from? Also if I had more time to study the then I would be well on my way. To be honest I wouldn't even know where to start. I am sharing my heart's cry hoping that someone would understand. Moriah Ruth, I think Alon and his Rabbi are wrong...I think that The MJ's and Christians can merge...once MJ's see Christian Believers being Observant, and Christians seeing MJ's embracing the discussion of the Brit Chadashah in Christian Terms. They do not have to become like one another, they merely have to do the same things, with or without Judaic culture, and speak in the same terms of Yeshua and the New Testament, while linking it to the Old Testament. And when that happens, we can all simply be Believers.
As for where you begin, you read the , and write down what YHVH said to do. And then you try to do them as it is written, no more, no less, adding one to your life at a time. I also am doing my journey by myself. Everyone does this journey by themselves...it's just easier when your family and friends are headed in the same direction as you are. The struggle to add Observance to Christianity is not easy, particularly when you must do it silently, and just stop explaining. I only talk about to my friends when I am adding on a new mitzvah, to tell them how I am doing it. I do not ask them to do it.
And when explaining your interest in Observance just remember, 1) you are trying to come up higher in Jesus; and when people ask why, 2) say you are trying to become more like Jesus. No one can fault you there. I started saying that when people asked why I was keeping the law, because it was true...they were less angry at me then.
Ok.. enough of that. Time to go and sit in my corner and think. I didn't say pout, I said think. I do too much of that. Think. Moriah Ruth Stop thinking for a while, and just write down the commandments in a list from the ...a lot don't apply these days, but please don't use a list of the 613 laws from a Jewish site...they include all the rules and regs from a Rabbinical point of view. Begin at Exodus 20:1. Only then think about how you might add them to your life. And please, only add them one at a time...anything else will be too obvious, and will tend to condemn others. Matching the New Testament Scripture that is built on the commandment or observance you will be following is also handy to memorize...'cause if it's in the Brit Chadashah, it can't be wrong!
I do hope this helps a little, and sparks a few ideas of how it will work best in your life, in between being the rabbetzin.
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(first five books), man is generally describe as being a living soul. However Gen 41:8 & 45:27, Ex 6:9 and Deut 2:30 indicate that man has a spirit. In 
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