CUT OFF, BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF Daniel

[Questor]

I had an unexpected call from my anti-missionary acquaintance...wrong day, and wrong time, and just after having an abcess in a gigantic molar erupt. I wasn't very nice...polite, but not warm.

As usual, he trashed everything I said for an hour and a half without allowing me to answer one question before hitting me with another, etc. Usual tactics, except I was wondering why he had called, out of the blue, since I hadn't attempted to contact him since 12/16/13.

Evidently I had sent him something on Daniel, and he had to tell me my timing on the weeks in Daniel was wrong, and I didn't know what a shavua was (Week, as in 70 weeks of years). Since I didn't have a copy of the eMail after all this time, I just let him talk, hoping he would go away soon, but not quite wanting to shut him down too rudely, until he informed me that the phrase 'cut off' in Hebrew was used in reference to someone wicked be executed for his sins. He stated that I would of course not say that such a phrase would apply to Yeshua, since I was a Christian. I said, "Why not? Yeshua did die for our sins, executed on a stake. Yeshua bore our sins, and our curse, and died the death we deserved."


Daniel 9:24-27 (CJB)
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place.
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”


He went away after I enthusiastically got going on the oneness of YHVH, even in the guise of human flesh, YHVH being able to do anything in and out of our time/space at one time, but I was left with a question.

When Yeshua was cut off, was He bearing our deserved punishment in the Lake of Fire for those three days, or only for the time between Noon and 3:00PM on the Cross?

[Frank T. Clark]

Feb 7, 2014 2:28:19 GMT -8 Questor said:

When Yeshua was cut off, was He bearing our deserved punishment in the Lake of Fire for those three days, or only for the time between Noon and 3:00PM on the Cross?

Neither! Interesting question, if a bit esoteric. Since the Bible says the dead know not anything, I believe He knew nothing until the resurrection. However, His suffering clearly began before Noon since the Word also says:

Mat 26:37-39 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Sounds like suffering to me.

[Questor]

Feb 8, 2014 11:33:04 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Feb 7, 2014 2:28:19 GMT -8 Questor said:

When Yeshua was cut off, was He bearing our deserved punishment in the Lake of Fire for those three days, or only for the time between Noon and 3:00PM on the Cross?

Neither! Interesting question, if a bit esoteric. Since the Bible says the dead know not anything, I believe He knew nothing until the resurrection. However, His suffering clearly began before Noon since the Word also says:

Mat 26:37-39 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Sounds like suffering to me.

Yes. I was thinking however of a verse I cannot recall that speaks of Yeshua preaching to the dead...if anyone knows, I'd love to find it.

[Frank T. Clark]

Feb 8, 2014 19:36:09 GMT -8 Questor said:

I was thinking however of a verse I cannot recall that speaks of Yeshua preaching to the dead...if anyone knows, I'd love to find it.

Blasphemous thought since it contradicts the rest of the Bible. I believe you refer to a misguided understanding of this text.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Often misused by Catholic teaching to those who do not know their Bible well.

[Questor]

Feb 9, 2014 12:29:34 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Feb 8, 2014 19:36:09 GMT -8 Questor said:

I was thinking however of a verse I cannot recall that speaks of Yeshua preaching to the dead...if anyone knows, I'd love to find it.

Blasphemous thought since it contradicts the rest of the Bible. I believe you refer to a misguided understanding of this text.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Often misused by Catholic teaching to those who do not know their Bible well.

Thank you, Frank. That was just what I was searching for. I wanted it because of the idea of Yeshua being in Sheol, and thus having access to the spirits of those dead prior to His advent.


Please recall that this was said by a Jew of Jewish concepts of Sheol.


What is meant by 'preaching to the spirits" then?

[Frank T. Clark]

I do not believe the Bible ever uses the term spirits to speak of disembodied souls. The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything! I don't care about Jewish viewpoint or Christian viewpoint. I care about Biblical viewpoint. We are the spirits in prison who have been freed by His words.

[Questor]

Jun 8, 2014 7:05:45 GMT -8 @bongo said:

Feb 7, 2014 2:28:19 GMT -8 Questor said:

He went away after I enthusiastically got going on the oneness of YHVH, even in the guise of human flesh, YHVH being able to do anything in and out of our time/space at one time, but I was left with a question.

Jun 8, 2014 7:05:45 GMT -8 @bongo said:

When Yeshua was cut off, was He bearing our deserved punishment in the Lake of Fire for those three days, or only for the time between Noon and 3:00PM on the Cross?

This is the point, we need to address this. He died , was laid to rest and caught up to heaven before the women went to attend to his embalming. This is the end of the earliest manuscripts of Mark. …6 And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7"But go, tell His disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.'" 8They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

The earliest manuscripts do not have 9-20. This is almost earth shattering.

This is why many of us are very careful when we read the Brit Chadashah to make sure we are looking at what was originally reported, and not amended or added to. The Complete Jewish Bible has a notation to show that Mark 16:9-20 is disputed.

Jun 8, 2014 7:05:45 GMT -8 @bongo said:

Yea, they saw Jesus but not eating fish or honeycomb. Neither did the ancient tombs spill forth saints raised prior to the resurrection. No, the Romans did more than spread one set of stories. The question is, if we are meant to believe on the resurrection without seeing it,  what of thomas and the other disciples, not only his 11/12 but others too. One might be able to argue that his closest talmidim(11/12), unlike the rest of us were past such things. Then would they not be classed as Gods and not brothers?

Bongo, please clarify. What would the Apostles have been past?

Jun 8, 2014 7:05:45 GMT -8 @bongo said:

This is heftily important. Yes , Adonai could have raised a group of long dead saints, from their rest, like John would have us believe he did with his friend Lazarus. But then what of the story of Lazarus the beggar. That story contradicts all the accounts of Jesus raising MEN. What would these temporally displaced men do? everyone they knew would be dead. They would be stricken.

There is no reason to discount John's report of Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, being raised from the tomb. As for the accounts of older saints being raised from the dead when Yehoshua was raised...it can be questioned as Mark 16:9-20 sounds like a summary of events long after the fact, but you must recall that Mark was not known as being on the spot timewise. Mark, like Luke, was not an Apostle present at the time of Yehoshua's death and resurrection, nor were they known to be one of the 120 in the upper room at the time of the indewelling of the Ruach haKodesh. There is, of necessity, a certain amount of journalistic information, as the gospels of Mark and Luke appear to have been written solely from the reports of those that had been there at the time. But these reports are not necessarily false, merely added onto as time passed. They can be set aside, because they are not central to the fact of Yehoshua being raised, and appearing to the Apostles.

I do not see that the raising of the saints when Yehoshua rose is impossible or unlikely since Yehoshua being raised/raising Himself from the dead is a given, and that much power in the middle of a graveyard might affect others buried nearby.  Yehoshua eating in his ressurrected form is not unreasonable...Adonai and two angels ate with Abraham.

How does the story of Lazarus the Beggar discount Yehoshua raising people from the dead?

Jun 8, 2014 7:05:45 GMT -8 @bongo said:

Yea, I believe Jesus is alive. And i believe the Lord ,God of Israel, is a just God. Praise the Lord.    

Amen.

[Questor]

Jun 8, 2014 14:09:03 GMT -8 @bongo said:

But Showing himself raised from the dead was. If Lazarus the beggar was not to be raised to warn people. Because even if someone were to rise from the dead to warn them those that did not listen to Moses and the prophets, still would not listen. Apparently Jesus said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed", in direct contrast to the position he had now put his twelve talmidim in. No, certainly Jesus was raised up to life eternal, at the side of Adonai, but he did not show himself in the flesh.

There is no change to a Christians position on faith. Salvation is of the Lord. 

So, are you saying that after Yehoshua rose from the grave, He never appeared to anyone in flesh and bone?

[Questor]

Jun 8, 2014 17:09:51 GMT -8 @bongo said:

Yes Questor, it's the way it happened. Look to what you believe about Yeshua and you will see that he did go ahead of them into Galilee and they did see him there.

Bongo, I don't look to what I believe, but what it says in the Scriptures. I don't throw out what is there because it doesn't fit...I try to understand it with the help of the Ruach.

Stating, however, that Yehoshua was never in the Flesh after His resurrection is to simply disregard other parts of Scripture.

Matthew 28:8-10 (CJB)
8 So they left the tomb quickly, frightened yet filled with joy; and they ran to give the news to his talmidim.
9 Suddenly Yeshua met them and said, “Shalom!” They came up and took hold of his feet as they fell down in front of him.
10 Then Yeshua said to them, “Don’t be afraid! Go and tell my brothers to go to the Galil, and they will see me there.”

Luke 24:28-31 (CJB)
28 They approached the village where they were going. He made as if he were going on farther;
29 but they held him back, saying, “Stay with us, for it’s almost evening, and it’s getting dark.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 As he was reclining with them at the table, he took the matzah, made the b’rakhah, broke it and handed it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. But he became invisible to them.

Luke 24:36-53 (CJB)
36 They were still talking about it when — there he was, standing among them!
37 Startled and terrified, they thought they were seeing a ghost.
38 But he said to them, “Why are you so upset? Why are these doubts welling up inside you?
39 Look at my hands and my feet — it is I, myself! Touch me and see — a ghost doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you can see I do.”
40 As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
41 While they were still unable to believe it for joy and stood there dumbfounded, he said to them, “Have you something here to eat?”
42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
43 which he took and ate in their presence.


John 20:14-18 (CJB)
14 As she said this, she turned around and saw Yeshua standing there, but she didn’t know it was he.
15 Yeshua said to her, “Lady, why are you crying? Whom are you looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you’re the one who carried him away, just tell me where you put him; and I’ll go and get him myself.”
16 Yeshua said to her, “Miryam!” Turning, she cried out to him in Hebrew, “Rabbani!” (that is, “Teacher!”)
17 “Stop holding onto me,” Yeshua said to her, “because I haven’t yet gone back to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
18 Miryam of Magdala went to the talmidim with the news that she had seen the Lord and that he had told her this.

John 20:24-29 (CJB)
24 Now T’oma (the name means “twin”), one of the Twelve, was not with them when Yeshua came.
25 When the other talmidim told him, “We have seen the Lord,” he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger into the place where the nails were and put my hand into his side, I refuse to believe it.”
26 A week later his talmidim were once more in the room, and this time T’oma was with them. Although the doors were locked, Yeshua came, stood among them and said, “Shalom aleikhem!”
27 Then he said to T’oma, “Put your finger here, look at my hands, take your hand and put it into my side. Don’t be lacking in trust, but have trust!”
28 T’oma answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Yeshua said to him, “Have you trusted because you have seen me? How blessed are those who do not see, but trust anyway!”

Bongo, believing what you want to believe, instead of believing what is said, is foolishness, and to many a damnable heresy. Soon you will have your own denomination, and lead others in the ways of your belief, not your trust in what the Ruach haKodesh had kept for us to read.

Yes, there have been changes made in translations of the Scriptures, but nothing has been done, or was allowed by the Ruach haKodesh to be codified as canon without the truth being there. The Tanakh and the Brit Chadashah have been watched over carefully so that the message and facts were not tainted, no matter what was attempted to alter the Scriptures. More and more older documents have been found to substantiate the truth, and mark what is questionable..and what is questionable is very little.

Each new Hebraic translation of the oldest documents into the original modality of thought is guided by the Ruach, so that all the errors are corrected, and even then, the errors have been so few, and only a fews lines are left to be doubted, because of the Ruach. If you do not understand this, you are making your opinion the gospel you preach to others, and that will get you damned.

[jimmie]

Jun 8, 2014 13:53:22 GMT -8 Questor said:

[
How does the story of Lazarus the Beggar discount Yehoshua raising people from the dead?

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[/quote]

It doesn't.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Since Jesus (salvation) is the one that rose from the dead, and here testifies that someone returning from the dead is not a sufficient witness to persuade someone who rejects Moses (rescued) and the prophets (inspired men), how is it that Christians affirm that belief in Christ (anointed one) without reverence for Moses and the prophets is the only way. If you have accepted the witness of Christ returning from the dead, you have either accepted the witness of Moses and the prophets or will do so when they are presented to you. To do other wise is to make Christ a liar.

[jimmie]

Neither would the rich man's brothers accept the witness.

[Questor]

Feb 14, 2014 6:26:37 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

I do not believe the Bible ever uses the term spirits to speak of disembodied souls. The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything! I don't care about Jewish viewpoint or Christian viewpoint. I care about Biblical viewpoint. We are the spirits in prison who have been freed by His words.

Frank, I agree that Yehoshua freed all of us, but Peter did say that Yehoshua went and made an announcement to the imprisoned spirits. Whether Peter meant the Angels that were imprisoned beneath the earth for their transgression in Genesis 6:4, or to spirits imprisoned in the dimension of time that is apparently under the Throne of YHVH, as show in Revelation 6:9 I don't know.

Genesis 6:1-4 (CJB)
1 In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3 Adonai said, “My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years.”
4 The N’filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown.

Revelation 6:9 (CJB)
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (CJB)
18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits,
20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people — to be specific, eight — were delivered by means of water.
21 This also prefigures what delivers us now, the water of immersion, which is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one’s pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.
22 He has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities and powers subject to him.

What are your thoughts on the above verses?

[Frank T. Clark]

Dead is DEAD! The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything! It is evil to even think of any communication with the dead by anyone. Search the . The Bible does not contradict itself. There is an alternate understanding that harmonizes. The written word can be misunderstood and twisted (especially in translation). Am I too blunt?

[alon]

Jul 7, 2014 5:23:32 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Dead is DEAD! The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything! It is evil to even think of any communication with the dead by anyone. Search the . The Bible does not contradict itself. There is an alternate understanding that harmonizes. The written word can be misunderstood and twisted (especially in translation). Am I too blunt?

Nope.

From Wickipedia:
Necromancy /ˈnɛkrɵˌmænsi/ or nigromancy is a form of magic involving communication with the deceased – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge, or to use the deceased as a weapon, as the term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.

Deu 18:10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, 11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you.

God was no less blunt about it.

Talking to the dead via necromancy is to enter into communion with a demon.


However God is fully able to raise someone from the dead. Otherwise we have no hope of our own resurrection.


Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

Jul 7, 2014 11:36:57 GMT -8 alon said:

Jul 7, 2014 5:23:32 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Dead is DEAD! The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything! It is evil to even think of any communication with the dead by anyone. Search the . The Bible does not contradict itself. There is an alternate understanding that harmonizes. The written word can be misunderstood and twisted (especially in translation). Am I too blunt?

Nope.

God was no less blunt about it.

Talking to the dead via necromancy is to enter into communion with a demon.

However God is fully able to raise someone from the dead. Otherwise we have no hope of our own resurrection.

Dan C

Yes! He will raise us all from the dead but not until the thousand years. The saved at the start and the lost at the end.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.