CUT OFF, BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF Daniel

[Deleted]

Hi Frank,

You stated, "The Bible is clear that the dead know not anything!"

So are you saying that those who die and lived a sinful life will not experience hell or damnation? That they will not be gnashing their teeth and lamenting and being tormented? That they would not KNOW this or experience this?

Or for those who lived a godly life and was obedient to God and served Him with all their being that they will not see Yeshua sitting at the right hand of the Father? Or seeing the beauty of heaven? That they would not KNOW this or experience it?

Because in my thinking this is what you are saying.

Also when you make your point with regards to it being in the bible should you not show verse for what you are saying?

Because the bible that I read says the opposite to what you are saying or trying to imply.

Moriah Ruth

[Deleted]

Also Frank you stated Dead is Dead.

So you are saying that when we all die we will KNOW NOTHING OF ANYTHING, until AFTER the 1000 years are completed. Than we shall know all things? Or know something?

Because I don't believe that. I believe that we do know something after we do die and will continue knowing until the Judgement seat of Christ.

And if what you say is true than what do you do with this?

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31

Why would Yeshua tell this story? Yes it is about the rich man and Lazarus. But the point that I am making is Lazarus was in Paradise along with Abraham. And the rich man was in Hades begging for a drop of water to quench his thirst. And he saw that Lazarus was happy and joyful. He desired for someone to go tell his brothers about Hades and it's torments and to feed and look after the poor. This was before the 1000 years. It seems to me that it is very real and they KNEW what was going on around them. The rich man KNEW what it felt like to be in Hades.

Even Yeshua had stated that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth even BEFORE the 1000 year reign. Not after. He made many references to experiencing hell and heaven.

Moriah Ruth

[jimmie]

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The rich man serves mammon. Lazarus(Greek transliteration of Elazar or God's helper)serves God. From the beginning to the end there are two groups of people. Jesus is using the story of the rich man and Lazarus to teach that he(the one that returned from the dead) will be rejected by those who serve mammon.

[Deleted]

Jimmie,

I understand the parable, however that was not my point that I was making with Frank.

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Ruth, I don't think Frank is questioning the resurrection and judgment. He is right about necromancy, though I'm having some trouble with the other passages as these are some I have not reconciled as yet.

The verse he quoted is:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Contextually it is talking about the folly of men who think they are something without Elohim.

However look at the next three verses here:

Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man … 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, …

Jhn 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

Some say the vrses in Luke are in a parable. I disagree. Parables typically start with verbiage like "It is as though." These verses say clearly “There was." So I have to think it actually "WAS." Then go to the account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. "Now a certain man WAS sick, named Lazarus." Again, he "was" sick. And we know that Mary and Martha also were real people, as they are mentioned elsewhere and spoken of here as though we should be familiar with them.

Yeshua being God could very well revive the dead. Elijah and Elisha each also revived dead child in the name of YHVH. So our spirits are accessible at any time to God. But does our consciousness exist somewhere as well? The scriptures seem to contradict, however as I always say, when I find something like this one good probability is my understanding is lacking. Scripture cannot contradict itself. There are other possibilities, but I always have to go with my understanding being at fault right out of the chute.

Dan (a mite confused) C

[Deleted]

Frank,

Here are several other thoughts for you or verses to check out.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14

So this tells me that anyone who was in Hades or hell would suffer much. This means they would KNOW and FEEL what was going on. This happens BEFORE the 1000 year reign. It is only AFTER the 1000 year reign that Hades and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Here is another interesting thought.

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." Revelation 6:9-11

This shows that those who were murdered, persecuted and martyred for their faith in Yeshua were waiting for God to avenge them. They were already dead at the time of the tribulation. This happened BEFORE the 1000 year reign, not AFTER. So this means they KNEW what was going on and they were talking to God or Yeshua. So this doesn't look like they KNEW NOTHING after they were dead.

Now you may have gotten the thought from the OT where it may say that after all that people have done on earth at the time of their death there would be no more of this or there will be no thought on what they have done. what this means is after death you know longer think about what you are going to do for the day or what to say to someone. There will be two things to think about and that would be eternal life or death. Eternal darkness or eternal light. But you cannot forget what Yeshua had stated to his disciples and to the Samaritans.

Now the Samaritans did not believe that there was a resurrection after death. But Yeshua showed them that yes there was. He stated that there would be no marriage in heaven. He didn't say that things ceased after one has died. He states after one died there is eternal life or death.

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Jul 8, 2014 15:35:54 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... from the OT where it may say that after all that people have done on earth at the time of their death there would be no more of this or there will be no thought on what they have done. what this means is after death you know longer think about what you are going to do for the day or what to say to someone. There will be two things to think about and that would be eternal life or death.

That may help some with my quandary above. Thanks.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Hi Alon,

Sorry I read things literal. Yes he did mention about necromancy which we all know is wrong.

When I see that one states that the bible says that after death no one knows anything than I am going to understand this entirely different.

The verse that you shared is what I as looking for in Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

I understand this verse no problem. However maybe it was the way that he worded it. So I ran with it. If one who is a new believer saw this they would probably be confused so I thought that I would explain further so that there is no confusion.

Enough said on that one.

Moriah Ruth

[Questor]

Jul 8, 2014 15:43:59 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Hi Alon,

Sorry I read things literal. Yes he did mention about necromancy which we all know is wrong.

When I see that one states that the bible says that after death no one knows anything than I am going to understand this entirely different.

The verse that you shared is what I as looking for in Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

I understand this verse no problem. However maybe it was the way that he worded it. So I ran with it. If one who is a new believer saw this they would probably be confused so I thought that I would explain further so that there is no confusion.

Enough said on that one.

Moriah Ruth

Actually, reading Ecclesiastes 9:5 by itself, without the context of the surrounding verses would lead anyone to believe that the dead, while dead, know nothing.


Ecclesiastes 9:5 (CJB For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost.


It is when you take into account the what the author is actually talking about, that while a person is alive, there is still hope for them.

Ecclesiastes 9:1-8 (CJB)
1 I applied myself to all of this, sifted through it and concluded that the righteous and the wise, along with their deeds, are in God’s hands — a person cannot know whether these people and deeds will be rewarded with love or with hatred; all options are open.
2 Anything can happen to anyone; the same thing can happen to the righteous as to the wicked, to the good and clean and to the unclean, to someone who offers a sacrifice and to someone who doesn’t offer a sacrifice; it is the same for a good person as for a sinner, for someone who takes an oath rashly as for someone who fears to take an oath.
3 This is another evil among all those done under the sun, that the same events can occur to anyone. Truly, the human mind is full of evil; and as long as people live, folly is in their hearts; after which they go to be with the dead.
4 For as long as a person is linked with the living, there is hope — better to be a living dog than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost.
6 What they loved, what they hated and what they envied all disappeared long ago, and they no longer have a share in anything done under the sun.
7 So go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a happy heart, for God has already accepted your deeds.
8 Let your clothing always be white, and never fail to perfume your head.

The verses surrounding the statement about the dead are a heartfelt plea for mankind to enjoy life while walking uprightly, and that once dead, no more can be done to improve how you will be judged. The dead know nothing more than what they have already done...there is no chance to improve their position in YHVH's eyes. It does not state that they are not aware, only they are with the others that are dead, and awaiting judgement, whether wicked or righteous.

From our point of view, within time, the dead are forgotten in time, and they make no more mark upon the world as they did when alive, nor are they able to begin to live righteously by starting over.  Outside of time, outside of this universe is eternity, and everyone who has lived waits for the judgement, some in torment over knowing what they have done, and the judgement they face; others in impatience for judgement to come to those that tormented them while alive.

The verse is very important, because it shows the finality of our actions here, and how important it is to walk uprightly, so that when we reach the Bema, there is no judgement waiting there, but only love and mercy, because of the grace of G-d.

[Deleted]

Thank you Questor for sharing this and this is how I see it.

Moriah Ruth

[zessazenessa]

Feb 13, 2014 18:46:27 GMT -8 Questor said:

Feb 9, 2014 12:29:34 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Blasphemous thought since it contradicts the rest of the Bible. I believe you refer to a misguided understanding of this text.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Often misused by Catholic teaching to those who do not know their Bible well.

Thank you, Frank. That was just what I was searching for. I wanted it because of the idea of Yeshua being in Sheol, and thus having access to the spirits of those dead prior to His advent.


Please recall that this was said by a Jew of Jewish concepts of Sheol.


What is meant by 'preaching to the spirits" then?

Has anyone read 2 Enoch? It's interesting.......Enoch is different than Yeshua but in that book he went through the levels of heavens and he talked to those who were there 2 Enoch chapter 18 5 And I said to the Grigori: I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them (to be) under earth till (the existing) heaven and earth shall end for ever.

6 And I said: Wherefore do you wait, brethren, and do not serve before the Lord’s face, and have not put your services before the Lord’s face, lest you anger your Lord utterly?

7 And they listened to my admonition, and spoke to the four ranks in heaven, and lo! As I stood with those two men four trumpets trumpeted together with great voice, and the Grigori broke into song with one voice, and their voice went up before the Lord pitifully and affectingly

[zessazenessa]

Jul 8, 2014 15:34:13 GMT -8 alon said:

Ruth, I don't think Frank is questioning the resurrection and judgment. He is right about necromancy, though I'm having some trouble with the other passages as these are some I have not reconciled as yet.

The verse he quoted is:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Contextually it is talking about the folly of men who think they are something without Elohim.

However look at the next three verses here:

Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man … 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, …

Jhn 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

Some say the vrses in Luke are in a parable. I disagree. Parables typically start with verbiage like "It is as though." These verses say clearly “There was." So I have to think it actually "WAS." Then go to the account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. "Now a certain man WAS sick, named Lazarus." Again, he "was" sick. And we know that Mary and Martha also were real people, as they are mentioned elsewhere and spoken of here as though we should be familiar with them.

Yeshua being God could very well revive the dead. Elijah and Elisha each also revived dead child in the name of YHVH. So our spirits are accessible at any time to God. But does our consciousness exist somewhere as well? The scriptures seem to contradict, however as I always say, when I find something like this one good probability is my understanding is lacking. Scripture cannot contradict itself. There are other possibilities, but I always have to go with my understanding being at fault right out of the chute.

Dan (a mite confused) C

The living know they shall die, but the dead know nothing and shall be forgotten. THE BOOK OF LIFE.........

[alon]

zessazenessa, the texts you reference are part of a Jewish tradition of end times thinking during the period just before and during the time of Yeshua. You must understand that in the 400 yrs before Yeshua there were not only many different sects of Judasim, but many distinct types of Judaism developed as well. Enoch is from this period, and is from a tradition outside mainstream Judaism. The original book of Enoch is lost to us, and to the men of this time as well. Fragments may have remained then, and may have been incorporated into the text. However the work as a whole is pseudepigraphic. It was a contemporary work of about the 2nd cen CE which claimed to be from a pre-flood figure. It can give us insight to the thinking of communities like the ones at Massada and Qumran, however it is not inspired writ, and in fact goes against the writings of the TNK, or Old Testament. So you must be very careful when reading from it and other writings of this time.

Dan C 

[zessazenessa]

May 29, 2018 11:35:10 GMT -8 alon said:

zessazenessa, the texts you reference are part of a Jewish tradition of end times thinking during the period just before and during the time of Yeshua. You must understand that in the 400 yrs before Yeshua there were not only many different sects of Judasim, but many distinct types of Judaism developed as well. Enoch is from this period, and is from a tradition outside mainstream Judaism. The original book of Enoch is lost to us, and to the men of this time as well. Fragments may have remained then, and may have been incorporated into the text. However the work as a whole is pseudepigraphic. It was a contemporary work of about the 2nd cen CE which claimed to be from a pre-flood figure. It can give us insight to the thinking of communities like the ones at Massada and Qumran, however it is not inspired writ, and in fact goes against the writings of the TNK, or Old Testament. So you must be very careful when reading from it and other writings of this time.

Dan C 

Is 2 Esdras in that sect too?

[alon]

May 29, 2018 16:37:08 GMT -8 zessazenessa said:

May 29, 2018 11:35:10 GMT -8 alon said:

zessazenessa, the texts you reference are part of a Jewish tradition of end times thinking during the period just before and during the time of Yeshua. You must understand that in the 400 yrs before Yeshua there were not only many different sects of Judasim, but many distinct types of Judaism developed as well. Enoch is from this period, and is from a tradition outside mainstream Judaism. The original book of Enoch is lost to us, and to the men of this time as well. Fragments may have remained then, and may have been incorporated into the text. However the work as a whole is pseudepigraphic. It was a contemporary work of about the 2nd cen CE which claimed to be from a pre-flood figure. It can give us insight to the thinking of communities like the ones at Massada and Qumran, however it is not inspired writ, and in fact goes against the writings of the TNK, or Old Testament. So you must be very careful when reading from it and other writings of this time.

Dan C 

Is 2 Esdras in that sect too?

The books of Esdras are definitely part of the apocryphal tradition, same as Enoch. 1 and 2 Esdras are supposedly the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, however I have a book of the apocryphal writings and the Ethiopian Bible. I've compared these books and they are not the same. The books of 3 and 4 Esdras likewise are from this tradition. There are apparently 2 more, 5 and 6 Esdras which I do not have, but I cannot think they are any more sacred writ than the others.

Again, there are things we can learn from these, however we must be very careful what it is we are learning when we read them. For example, the book of Enoch talks about giants being the product of intercourse between fallen angels and women. When I was still in Hebrew Roots I fell into the trap of believing this, however there is no evidence for it in scripture other than:

Genesis 6:2  (ESV) the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

However there is no evidence that "the sons of God" refers to angels. It more likely refers to men, particularly those who follow God. This is how the term is used many places in the Bible:

Hosea 1:10  (KJV) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

 Yeshua Himself addressed this:

Luke 20:35-36  (NASB) but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

So I was wrong; and so is the Book of Enoch. That is why I say be careful what you learn from these books. Check everything against scripture. There is a reason they are not in our 66 book Bibles. The Apocrypha was added to the Catholic Bible at the Council of Trent in 1546 AD because it supported Catholic doctrines like purgatory, praying for the dead, and others. It was also intended to counter the Protestant Reformation which was coming to a head about that time. So neither its being written by Jews nor acceptance by some Christians makes any writing holy writ.

The apocryphal writings of especially the 1st cen BCE are concerned primarily with the coming of the Messiah to usher in the end times and the throne of God. They were obsessed with men who had died and went to heaven and supposedly came back, having seen the throne. Also with men who'd had visions of the throne. Some canonical material, such as Daniel 7 is also part of the apocryphal tradition; so some was taken from holy writ. But not much.

Dan C