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Post by rakovsky on Jan 23, 2019 10:25:06 GMT -8
Is 2 Esdras in that sect too? The books of Esdras are definitely part of the apocryphal tradition, same as Enoch. 1 and 2 Esdras are supposedly the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, however I have a book of the apocryphal writings and the Ethiopian Bible. I've compared these books and they are not the same. The books of 3 and 4 Esdras likewise are from this tradition. There are apparently 2 more, 5 and 6 Esdras which I do not have, but I cannot think they are any more sacred writ than the others. I want to make a helpful clarification here, Zessazenessa and Alon! "5 and 6 Esdras" are really just parts of what the Catholic "Vulgate" Bible calls "4 Esdras". And "4 Esdras" in the Catholic Bible is the same as what the protestant King James Version Bible calls "2 Esdras". So if you have the King James apocrypha with what it calls "2 Esdras", you actually have 5 and 6 Esdras as well.
Also, to answer the question of 4 Esdras' sect, the Book of Enoch and 4 Esdras, like the Book of Revelation (as Alon pointed out to me in the thread about 4 Esdras: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4599/4-esdras-vulgate-2-protestant) are part of a visionary or apocalyptic style of writing in ancient Judaism and by early Christians. The Book of Enoch is commonly dated to the early centuries before Christ's time, whereas 4 Esdras is mostly dated to the late 1st century AD or second century, and the author is either a Jewish Christian, or else a Jewish, nonChristian writer followed by a Christian editor. So Enoch and 4 Esdras are not probably in a same unique "sect" because they are from different centuries, but still within the same broad style of writing in Judaism. Enoch seems more focused on learning about angels, whereas 4 Esdras seems more about Messianic events and eschatology, IIRC. The Epistle from Jude in the Bible quotes Enoch, whereas 4 Esdras became respected by a major portion of early Christians, maybe in part because it mentioned the Messiah.
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Post by alon on Jan 23, 2019 14:21:33 GMT -8
I want to make a helpful clarification here, Zessazenessa and Alon! "5 and 6 Esdras" are really just parts of what the Catholic "Vulgate" Bible calls "4 Esdras". And "4 Esdras" in the Catholic Bible is the same as what the protestant King James Version Bible calls "2 Esdras". So if you have the King James apocrypha with what it calls "2 Esdras", you actually have 5 and 6 Esdras as well.
Also, to answer the question of 4 Esdras' sect, the Book of Enoch and 4 Esdras, like the Book of Revelation (as Alon pointed out to me in the thread about 4 Esdras: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4599/4-esdras-vulgate-2-protestant) are part of a visionary or apocalyptic style of writing in ancient Judaism and by early Christians. The Book of Enoch is commonly dated to the early centuries before Christ's time, whereas 4 Esdras is mostly dated to the late 1st century AD or second century, and the author is either a Jewish Christian, or else a Jewish, nonChristian writer followed by a Christian editor. So Enoch and 4 Esdras are not probably in a same unique "sect" because they are from different centuries, but still within the same broad style of writing in Judaism. Enoch seems more focused on learning about angels, whereas 4 Esdras seems more about Messianic events and eschatology, IIRC. The Epistle from Jude in the Bible quotes Enoch, whereas 4 Esdras became respected by a major portion of early Christians, maybe in part because it mentioned the Messiah.
Zessazenessa no longer posts here. But we keep these old threads archived, and you are welcome to revive any of them you wish to discuss. There apparently was another book of Enoch which has been lost to time. However the NT writers did have access to copies of it, probably in the Temple library. What we now have may use fragments of it. however the bulk of the work is dated to probably the last 2 centuries before the Christ. And I've read more than one version of the book; however how much of that is due to different translators and how much to varying texts I have no idea. I haven't really cared to look into it. It is enough for me to know it is a pseudepigraphic text, again according to the experts since I'm not a linguist. Enoch does focus a lot on melachim (messengers, spiritual or men or even God Himself), both heavenly and demonic. What I got from it that was useful is how ha'satan sets up his hierarchy of demons along the same lines as God does the heavenly hosts. But the book goes too far in suggesting that demons mated with human women to give us nephilim, or great ones. However like most Hebrew terms, this can apply to anyone, spiritual or human. In fact, a great one could be a magistrate, a giant (which did exist, and still does today) or just a large, powerful man= anyone in a position of power and influence or someone of great strength, or a great warrior or successful captain. Medieval Christian writers were not the only ones who could go off the rails with their imagination. And just wait until you (inevitably) run into some of OUR uh, "brethren" who go a little crazy. Like I told you before, there is a LOT of insanity trying to fly the MJ flag. Some is just ill advised people trying to make sense of things, but a lot of it is deception of the enemy. So be careful and check "us" out (me included- be a Berean above all else), and remember, whether us or anyone else, but especially us,  is the base. It it violates , it is not of God. Dan C |
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