Family Purity

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom chaverim u'mishpochah,

Wow, I get a page all to myself. My goodness, you all have been busy.

I think there has been some good discussion here. We do all need to remember to be careful with our words and season them with grace, mercy, patience, and understanding (a challenge for us all). The subject of Niddah is an important issue as is important, every jot and tittle.

Nachshon,

I appreciate your zeal and if what you have described is your way of showing your love for Our Father and King...Baruch Hashem! We are all on a path and a journey...just like our Father Avraham. As we seek to serve Adonai we find out over time with sanctification what works and what doesn't, how to deal with people effectively, and how not to deal with people. This comes with much time and experience. I still have much to learn in this area. You will know what I mean in decade from now (if we are allowed this much time). Time is short and we all must learn to speak the truth in love the best we can. And, I think you may agree, but I believe learning to speak the truth in love is just as important as it is to learn the truth. How else are we to effectively plant the truth in others? This is the great commission given to us by Messiah (Mat. 28:19-20).

My wife and I observe Niddah to the best of our ability. Although, my wife is usually always in between being pregnant, breast feeding and giving birth to another little one so we rarely have an opportunity to practice niddah. When we do observe it we do so as we observe the moedim. They are spiritual exercises that are preparing us for the coming Kingdom Of Heaven. There is a reality that these mitzvot regarding niddah whether be it the ritual uncleanliness or the time after birth are in place simply to avoid coming into the Mikdash (Temple) defiled, thus being worthy of death.

"But if she is cleansed of her discharge, then she shall count to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. On the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, and bring them to the Kohen, to the door of the Tent of Meeting. The Kohen shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the Kohen shall make atonement for her before YHVH for the uncleanness of her discharge. "'Thus you shall separate the children of Yisra'el from their uncleanness, so they will not die in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is in their midst.'" - Vayikra (Lev.) 15:28-31

There are many things that can make us unclean in this life that without the cleansing ashes of the red-heifer we could never be cleansed of...even if we did mikvah three times a day until Mashiach returns. Does this mean that we cannot partake and participate in the holy service of G'd?

Just as we cannot really keep the moedim according to the mitzvah, so too in many cases we cannot really keep niddah according to the mitzvah. Sacrifice is required in many of these instances to complete and fulfill the cleansing. It simply is not possible at this time. Does this mean that we cease from practicing a form of niddah? Should we stop practicing a form of the moedim just because we cannot keep them perfectly at this time? Of course not. We do what we can in honor of HaShem.

But, we should be careful not to be too legalistic in areas that we cannot truly keep in the first place. I think that many times even fellowship takes precedence over becoming unclean in this way…at least at this point in our dispersion. Some may disagree with me and that is alright. I am staunch promoter of keeping (thus the reason for this forum), but I also believe there is something to be said for rightly dividing the word of Elohim (also a part of observing ).

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Nachshon]

Sir, please understand that my sole objection was that someone had said that we were cleansed by the blood of Yeshua, and no longer needed to follow the laws of niddah. I completely agree that we cannot be completely purified, because we have all come in contact with death, and have no red heiffer sacrifice, etc. But my point is that there are two camps that like to avoid observance "that was fulfilled by Yeshua" and "we're in Babylon." While both of those are true, they do not mean that we are no longer obligated to observe everything to the best of our ability. That is my only contention.

I'm sorry if I have been overly rough, I've been having a bit of a difficult time at home, and with people lately, and I think I've been coming to this forum frustrated to begin with, and am letting that spill over into my posts. Please accept my apology, everyone. I should not have let that happen.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Seeker2]

Nachshon, you are a good friend on this forum and I have enjoyed talking to you about this! Forgive me if I was sarcastic, it is my humor which does not come out right if I am not saying it personally, and my intention was not to offend you! (I thought I was being funny, imagine that! ) It takes us all as a community to work together to learn how we are to live as none of us are Ezra-level qualified!
If nothing else, I appreciate you so much as you have really highlighted for me the fact that we are UNCLEAN in ourselves, we live with unclean people, and our land is defiled because of it just as it was then when Isreal sinned. This stirs up in me the desire to be Restored, for G-d's land to be cleansed, and to walk in rightousness under the rule of the Messiah. We are here in the diaspora (jew and gentile-grafted in) as a result of sin and it is because of the judgement rightly due us to suffer in a "defiled" land and be defiled ourselves. I believe in my being that if we turn to Him with all our hearts and realize our true state without Him and turn so that we (and our land) may be healed, He will come to us. I believe that I read somewhere that the Rabbis also believe that we can influence the timing of the Messiah with our repentance and obediace so that He will come to us sooner. What if we who believe stood in the gap for them??? ( you know, like Moses was successful doing, and also the Levites who stood in for all the first born?) What if we who believe could weep and mourn for the sins of our brothers in faith and flesh, and what if we could tip the heart of G-d alittle bit more away from judgement, tword mercy so that He would heal all Isreal and return them?
Have you seen the movie "A few Good Men?" In it Tom Cruise's charactor at one point seems at a loss as to how to get this Colonel Jessup to admit he ordered a Code Red, remember? Finally, He comes to the conclusion that what he needed to do was simply to stir the Colonel up enought so that he then could be led right where he really wanted to go all along! (it worked too!). My point is that returning to can stir us up too since then we will once more know how inadaquet we are and just how much we have sinned, how filthy our garments and our land has become because of ourselves! Then when WE get stirred up, we can Stir up G-d to mercy, which is where He really wants to go all along! I know through the bible how much He yearns for His people!

"How can I give you up Ephriam?
How can I hand you over Isreal?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I set you like Zebolim?
My heart churns within me, my sympathy is stirred." Hos 11:8

"In those days and in that time," says the L-d,
"The children of Isreal shall come, They and the children of Judah together:
With continual weeping they shall come,
And seek the L-d their G-d.
They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces tword it saying, 'Come and let us join ourselves to the L-d in a perpetual covenant that will not be forgotten." jer 50:4

"Who is a G-d like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?
He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy.
He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities.
You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea, You will give truth to Jacob and Mercy to Abraham, which you have sworn to our fathers from days of old." Micah 7:18-20

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Sir, please understand that my sole objection was that someone had said that we were cleansed by the blood of Yeshua, and no longer needed to follow the laws of niddah. I completely agree that we cannot be completely purified, because we have all come in contact with death, and have no red heiffer sacrifice, etc. But my point is that there are two camps that like to avoid observance "that was fulfilled by Yeshua" and "we're in Babylon."

Shalom Nachshon,

I am in agreement with you here and with most of your sentiments. It was mainly the one paragraph where I addressed you were I was speaking to you specifically. Everything else was just my two cents for those to read on the forum. I am sorry to hear that you are going through some tough times. Is there anything that we can lift you up in prayer? I consider you a blessing here on the forum and I am glad you are here. Stick in there.

B'rachot b'Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

[Nachshon]

I need to keep this post brief.
That is one point in which I agree with the "rabbis". Solomon tells us that if we repent, turn towards the Temple, and confess, "khata'nuw v'he'eviynuw rsha'nuw" (we have sinned and done perversely; we have done wickedly) then He will return us from our captivity. But we will not see Him again until we all say, "Baruch Haba' b'shem YHWH!"

Oh. Thank you. I guess I'm too arrogant; I think everything is directed at me. :-)
Yes, please. I need patience to deal with a situtation with someone who is very frustrating to me, and I feel like I'm coming down with whatever it is my sister is just getting over. Thank you, akhiy.

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shabbat Shalom Everyone! I came across this article on www.askmoses.com and thought it would be good to reprint here.

Do men go to the mikvah too?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

The laws of purity and impurity apply to men and women equally. In the times when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem it was required of everyone to be pure when entering the Holy Temple or when eating holy foods (sacrifices, Terumah, maaser sheni, etc.). Therefore, both men and women (married and unmarried) would use the Mikvah very often. In fact, private mikvaot were found in many of the ancient homes that were excavated in Jerusalem.


Today, until the eagerly anticipated revelation of the messiah, there is no Halachic reason to be pure. The only exception to this rule is the Niddah; a menstruating woman who must go to the mikvah before she can resume marital relations with her husband. So the reason why a woman goes to mikvah is not (primarily) to become pure, but rather for practical purposes.


The only time when it is Halachically mandatory for men to go to the mikvah is the day before Yom Kippur. On Yom Kippur we are compared to angels, and must therefore purify ourselves beforehand. (In many communities the women also go to the mikvah on this day).


Ezra the Prophet instituted (in the 4th century b.c.e.) that any man who has a seminal emission, whether during intercourse or otherwise, should immerse in a mikvah before praying or studying . This dictate was not universally accepted and was, therefore, abolished. However, pious people throughout the generations have always continued to follow Ezra's directive.


Chassidim have the custom of going to the mikvah every day, and especially prior to Shabbat and festivals. This is intended to add an extra dimension of purity and holiness to everyday life.

[Nachshon]

This is only true if we ignore the commandment to "be ye holy, for I am holy."

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I think personal attempts to be holy as He is holy are respectful. We must all be convinced in our own minds what this entails and what this looks like according to the words of our Heavenly Father. It is good to share how others may try to accomplish this to give ideas to those whom may be thinking about these issues. The key is to observe the fruit that is produced. Is the produce edifying? Does it produce unity? Does it produce righteousness? This information is usually obtained through years of experience. This is one of the many reasons elders are so important.

Shalom aleychem,

Reuel

[Nachshon]

I'd just like to add one little thing to this discussion. It's food for thought more than anything. We keep discussing whether or not we "have" to keep the laws of ritual purity. I've been around a lot of Messianic circles, and I keep hearing these words, "we don't have to do that because..." I think that's really . To be honest with ourselves, we don't have to do anything but sit down on our butts in the wilderness and die. The only reason anyone follows the is because they want to. It is because they have a desire to do Father's will. It's not about what we do and don't have to do, it's all about how much we want to do.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

Nachson, I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think that there is any question as to whether or not we should live obedient to the Scriptures; but the question is what is obedience to the Scriptures and what is man-made.

[Pioneer]

mark said:

Nachson, I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think that there is any question as to whether or not we should live obedient to the Scriptures; but the question is what is obedience to the Scriptures and what is man-made.

------------Say what!!!!----
Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

Ok, I must have missed something, because I'm not sure what Mark is referring to.

This is only true if we ignore the commandment to "be ye holy, for I am holy."

Not necessarily. What I think it underscores is that until we are living in Eretz HaKodesh with a rebuilt Beit HaMikdash, we cannot truly keep all mitzvot. That being said, should both men and women mikvah? Yes! And men should be doing it daily, whereas women merely have to mikvah once a month. However, our communities are not equipped to handle this presently. Of course this will change when the Beit HaMikdash is rebuilt, and noone would dare to enter without being purified first.

[Mark]

In Leviticus 15 we are told that the requirement for cleansing from niddah is to wash in water before evening. This is different from the man that must be cleansed from his "issue" must wash in "running" or "living" water (Leviticus 15:9). This distinction is ignored rabbinically, requiring all unclean to go a kosher mikvah for cleansing. The command in for all uncleanness except for that of the man with the running issue (and the fella that carries away the ashes of the red heifer: Leviticus 19:17) is simply to wash.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Nachson, I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think that there is any question as to whether or not we should live obedient to the Scriptures; but the question is what is obedience to the Scriptures and what is man-made.

Shalom chaverim,

Correct me if I am wrong Mark, but I think what Mark was saying is that the discussion is not about whether or not we think we have to keep a particular command or not...(because most of us here believe we should keep the commands). The discussion is about what the command actually is.

Although, I do agree with Nachshon that when people say, "we don't have to do this or that in ", it is the wrong attitude. It is funny because it is usually anti-nomian (anti-) "Christians" that say things like this and it shows that they operate according to what they have to do and what they don't have to do...This seems to be the very "legalism" that they are railing against.

In reality, those whom follow Adonai in truth and love follow Him because they get to! It is because they are excited to and love Him...It is of course our obligation, but we approach fulfilling our obligation of being a servant with joy and love because we want to do the work set before us and we are given great tools to accomplish the work!... So, I think there is a bit of confusion, but I believe that both brothers are correct in what they are trying to communicate.

Yom tov b'Mashiach,

Reuel

[messianicmama]

Oct 23, 2006 3:44:22 GMT -8 Mark said:

Important distinction needs to be made between uncleanness and sin. Having been rendered unclean for whatever reason is not sin in itself. Yeshua Messiah was rendered unclean on at least three ocassions: touching a leper, touching a dead child, and being touched by a woman during an extended period of niddah.

Here is where I likely part with my fellows and with rabbinical tradition. The requirements of mikvah (living water) has been taught as what is necessary for cleaning. We find the living water (or running water in some translations) necessary only for the man with a running issue or an issue that is stopped up. All other uncleanness only requires that one wash in water (for some, only to wash their hands in water) and remain unclean until evening.

Uncleanness only affects the holy things. One would not approach the bema when unclean, nor would one participate in the holy festivals. THis doesn't mean that they must stay home. It does suggest that they would refrain from any activity that might make others unclean and really only affects those who frankly care. This means, unless you are conducting business with a observant person, he would likely be more offended if you explained yourself rather than simply shaking his hand. In our worship, a woman in niddah usually remains in the room where there moms and nursing children. Men don't walk in to that room and approach ladies casually, nor touch any woman other than their wives unless given permission (If you came to my fellowship, as a woman, I would not presume to shake your hand or give you a hug unless you made gesture first.)

The husband and wife thing is kept very much in the discretion of the home and depends upon the needs of the wife. Unless there is a isolation plan in one's home (and even probably if so) it is likely that the man will at some point contact something that the woman has touched during each day of her impurity. A little unclean or a lot unclean makes little difference. Some choose to sleep in separate beds anyway, simply for worship and prayer. Others trust in sanitary provisions to keep the blood from contacting him in any way. At any rate, I would suggest that the woman's uncleanness extends to the man during her menstral cycle and he should consider himself unclean as well, wash in water each night (as an act of worship) and refrain from the holy things, committing oneself to prayer.

This is really good. My understanding is similar. Seeing as we don't have Temple that I might defile, it seems a little less critical thatwomen on their cycles stay away... At least in my understanding. Also, while we're at it, if a man ejaculates, he is unclean. I don't see many men in thus movement discussing that with the congregation before sitting down. I think there ought to be a halacha for all things which make us common (I prefer this term over unclean to distinguish it from being a sinful thing), but I don't think it should be embarrassing, or shameful.