Family Purity

[Blake]

I've always wondered why a lot of Messianic Congregations will emphasize kashrut and moedim but remain completely silent on the laws concerning niddah and do not encourage the use of mikvah for women. Why is this?

[Yitzchak]

blake said:

I've always wondered why a lot of Messianic Congregations will emphasize kashrut and moedim but remain completely silent on the laws concerning niddah and do not encourage the use of mikvah for women. Why is this?

My simple answer would be this. Most Messianic Congregations are not actually observant. They basically dabble in observance.

The most obvious ways to observe are Kashrut, and celebrating the Moedim, but beyond that there is not much taught in the way of observance.

There have been attempts to establish a Messianic Halakha, however, the old saying goes, "Two Jews, three opinions."

The Messianic movement today is fractured. Most can't even agree on the subject of the , so expecting them to move onto a subject like Niddah is far fetching.

L'Shana Tovah,

Yitzchak

[Chizuk Emunah]

yitzchak said:

My simple answer would be this. Most Messianic Congregations are not actually observant. They basically dabble in observance.

The most obvious ways to observe are Kashrut, and celebrating the Moedim, but beyond that there is not much taught in the way of observance.

There have been attempts to establish a Messianic Halakha, however, the old saying goes, "Two Jews, three opinions."

The Messianic movement today is fractured. Most can't even agree on the subject of the , so expecting them to move onto a subject like Niddah is far fetching.

L'Shana Tovah,

Yitzchak

We've covered this ground before in another thread. It is so to see true observance not being taught. We are in serious need of teachers with a solid foundation in Mashiach.

[Seeker2]

Well, you guys may be right on this, but I was considering the difficulty as a woman of the Niddah "protocol" as it were. I'm understanding from another thread that men arent to touch women during this time, which would mean that no shaking hands at work or at the assembly. This would require we women to refuse to shake hands? Then we would need to explain why? Or would we wear a "red letter" so all the men would know not to touch us? Hmmmm...that would be really embarrasing! I dont know, but Im wondering if things in the land of Isreal were designed to follow this Mitzvot without humiliating the women! ???And dont bother speculating that we could stay home because that is impossible now a days (I guess we could skip assembly but that seems wrong too). I guess my point is, could this be one of the commandments that needs the restoration to carry out...we need to be home in our own land. I think my husband could follow this with me, but not with any other woman. That goes for you guys too. But that wasnt the way it used to be (and the penalty for adultry was stoning). If we arent being taught the by our leaders, lets learn it here! Isnt that why we are Here in the first place???

[Nachshon]

In our group (we don't have a congregation per se) there are those of us attempting to operate on the laws of Nidda. It is hard, because you never know when a non-Messianic is in Niddah, or made unclean by a dead body, etc. We also encourage the Mikva for everyone. If it were possible, I would really like to Mikva every evening after I've come into contact with people not observing the laws of ritual cleanliness. At the present time, that's not a possibility. But soon, Father willing.
If you really pay close attention, there are a lot of Messianics who aren't even keeping Kasher. They play at keeping Kasher, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty of what about gelatin, natural flavors, dishes, etc...very few Messianics actually go to the trouble to get rid of their unclean dishes, or to purify those that can be purified. I think most Messianics simply aren't all that dedicated to keeping . Basically, I have to agree with Yitzchak's assessment.
As to shaking hands with ppl, that is only a problem in the assembly, I would say. If you're unclean, you can't approach Father. But outside of the assembly, they won't be approaching Father, anyway. In the assembly, a friend's congregation came up with the idea that the women wear red scarfs when they're in Niddah. Embarrasing the first time, but after a while, everyone just knows, I think it would get less and less uncomfortable.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Chizuk Emunah]

As others have said, observance is not followed by many Messianics, so you won't find too many congregations that even know about Niddah, much less be concerned with it.

There are several aspects to tacharat hamishpacha (family purity) that families can still keep today.

• Husband and wife should not sleep in the same bed
  
• Husband and wife should avoid contact
  - They can however both touch the children as well as touch the same items
  
• The wife should mikvah after completing niddah
  

Now as for indentifying those who are niddah, this is extremely difficult in our day and age, especially when so many don't see it as being a big deal. I remember hearing once (this may or may not be true) that in Israel women have a way of identifying themselves as niddah with a special head covering. So maybe that is something that your congregation can put into practice.

As for not shaking hands, the Chassidim will not shake a woman's hand, just as a general rule of thumb. Again, if you work in the business world this is extremely difficult to implement. So my suggestion would be for each person to make their own determination about this.

Shavua Tov,
Natanel


---- Almost forgot. This is a great site that goes into the many details of niddah:
www.mikvah.org

[Mark]

Important distinction needs to be made between uncleanness and sin. Having been rendered unclean for whatever reason is not sin in itself. Yeshua Messiah was rendered unclean on at least three ocassions: touching a leper, touching a dead child, and being touched by a woman during an extended period of niddah.

Here is where I likely part with my fellows and with rabbinical tradition. The requirements of mikvah (living water) has been taught as what is necessary for cleaning. We find the living water (or running water in some translations) necessary only for the man with a running issue or an issue that is stopped up. All other uncleanness only requires that one wash in water (for some, only to wash their hands in water) and remain unclean until evening.

Uncleanness only affects the holy things. One would not approach the bema when unclean, nor would one participate in the holy festivals. THis doesn't mean that they must stay home. It does suggest that they would refrain from any activity that might make others unclean and really only affects those who frankly care. This means, unless you are conducting business with a observant person, he would likely be more offended if you explained yourself rather than simply shaking his hand. In our worship, a woman in niddah usually remains in the room where there moms and nursing children. Men don't walk in to that room and approach ladies casually, nor touch any woman other than their wives unless given permission (If you came to my fellowship, as a woman, I would not presume to shake your hand or give you a hug unless you made gesture first.)

The husband and wife thing is kept very much in the discretion of the home and depends upon the needs of the wife. Unless there is a isolation plan in one's home (and even probably if so) it is likely that the man will at some point contact something that the woman has touched during each day of her impurity. A little unclean or a lot unclean makes little difference. Some choose to sleep in separate beds anyway, simply for worship and prayer. Others trust in sanitary provisions to keep the blood from contacting him in any way. At any rate, I would suggest that the woman's uncleanness extends to the man during her menstral cycle and he should consider himself unclean as well, wash in water each night (as an act of worship) and refrain from the holy things, committing oneself to prayer.

[Nachshon]

I agree with you for the most part, except that I do not believe that Yeshua was made unclean at those times. Why? Because He was the sin offering, and when the sin offering touched anything what happened to it? The thing it touched was made clean or sanctified. Rather than Him being made unclean, the other was instantaneously made clean.

Also, saying uncleanness only affects holy things is to ignore a number of commands. 1) that no one should approach the Tabernacle when in a state of uncleanness, except when a leper is coming to be examined. 2) that any vessel that has been made unclean has to be purified or broken. Scripture does not specify only holy vessels. Metal must be burned and washed. glass, wood, etc. washed, and clay vessels must be broken.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Firestorm]

Sorry guys I think some information is private and to be kept between a wife, her husband and God. They are not for public display. Wear a red scarf?? I don't think so.

We don't need a "Messianic Halakha" we have the Word and that should be sufficient.
It's true that some things in Scripture challenge our understanding and that varying interpretations and heated discussions are likely to come up. A "Messianic Halakha" would spell things out according to one person or one group of people's interpretation of things and as there's always bound to be disagreement I doubt it would solve much.
Obviously we should exhort one another to obey God's word, but I get concerned when we start pecking at people regarding the purity or sincerity of their observance. Unless someone in our fellowship is sinning blatantly, we're heading down a dangerous road on this one. Some things are between an individual's heart and God and we should guard against being judgemental or presumptuous.
"Two Jews three opinions." is IMHO a lesser evil than a Messianic magisterium.

[Nachshon]

I have to disagree. It cannot be kept private. Why? I don't really care if you've come to a place to observe the laws of ritual impurity. It doesn't matter to me. However, I am trying to keep ritually pure. If I met you, and your wife was in Niddah, it would be a violation of Paul's exhortations to us for her to touch me...or for you to, if you had touched her.
I don't believe in a halakha. A skarf was merely one suggestion of a way to indicate impurity. It was not a "a woman in niddah must wear a red scarf..."
I also must disagree with your assessment of a "magisterium." There is evidence that the early believers had a Sanhedrin set up at Jerusalem.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Seeker2]

I don't want to be difficult here, but a red scarf or any other thing such as that is absolutly humiliating and out of the question! I know you are men and dont know any better as you really don't understand the social implications of this suggestion for many women, but to suggest such a thing is awful. I think many woman would rather die! Now, I can agree that during this time, I will not offer to touch any man nor shake his hand, and maybe that should be all there is to it. If a woman doesnt extend her hand, dont extend Yours! As far as work is concerned, I have to touch my patients (although I wear gloves whenever I can!). Some of them are jewish and I'm sure observe the , but I cant refrain from doing my job. I dont want to be caught arguing with the commandments here, but this is not Isreal and woment must interact with men daily. You are doing that yourselves every day...you eat at restraunts, go thru drive ins, check out at Walmart, pick up your dry cleaning, put gas in your cars, etc....News flash...ALOT of the women you meet daily are on their cycles! Almost everthing you touch has been recently touched by someone "unclean." The woman who just handed you your change may very well be "unclean". If she isnt, your secretary is, or the female who cleaned the mens room at work. My point here is, I am not sure this is a meetable commandment today. We are all going to be unclean! Now the question is, arent we clean through Yeshua? ;D

[Nachshon]

I know a number of women who actually wear such a scarf of their own volition. Either they don't find it humilitating, or they are so dedicated to , and so focused on the Father, that they don't care. Is that not the most honourable sentiment?
What about where you sit? That is the biggest problem. If I merely touch you, I'm unclean until evening. If I set where you have, I have to wash myself and my clothes in water and be unclean until evening.
Now, here are a few lifestyle changes that takes, and with your situation it would be more difficult; I believe in natural treatment, so I hardly ever go to a doctor (that's not , but it helps.) I am beginning to avoid women that I know don't live by the commandments. If I touch them, I'm not going to freak out. But if it is avoidable, I try to. I don't eat out, because there are no kasher resteraunts here at the end of the earth. If a woman in niddah touches something, that doesn't make it unclean, unless you're Orthodox. There are ways to avoid touching cashiers etc. It really isn't as hard as you make it sound.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[messimom]

Leviticus 15: 16 "And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and be unclean until the evening.

17: And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening.

So what color scarf shall the men wear?

Messimom

[Nachshon]

I have the guts to just plain tell people. Do they turn a little red? Yeah. But that doesn't bother me.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Blake]

seeker2 said:

I don't want to be difficult here, but a red scarf or any other thing such as that is absolutly humiliating and out of the question! I know you are men and dont know any better as you really don't understand the social implications of this suggestion for many women, but to suggest such a thing is awful.I think many woman would rather die! Now, I can agree that during this time, I will not offer to touch any man nor shake his hand, and maybe that should be all there is to it. If a woman doesnt extend her hand, dont extend Yours! As far as work is concerned, I have to touch my patients (although I wear gloves whenever I can!). Some of them are jewish and I'm sure observe the , but I cant refrain from doing my job. I dont want to be caught arguing with the commandments here, but this is not Isreal and woment must interact with men daily. You are doing that yourselves every day...you eat at restraunts, go thru drive ins, check out at Walmart, pick up your dry cleaning, put gas in your cars, etc....News flash...ALOT of the women you meet daily are on their cycles! Almost everthing you touch has been recently touched by someone "unclean." The woman who just handed you your change may very well be "unclean". If she isnt, your secretary is, or the female who cleaned the mens room at work. My point here is, I am not sure this is a meetable commandment today. We are all going to be unclean! Now the question is, arent we clean through Yeshua? ;D

takes precedence over worldly occupations and distractions.
You have a choice to make, (G-d's standards), or Society's Standards. That choice is your's alone.