|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 27, 2006 11:54:28 GMT -8
I did not say that anyone is required to wear a red scarf, but that we will, as bneyi Avraham, stand out. We should not be afraid of this. I know a lot of Christians who stand out more than my Messianic friends. Why? Because they are dedicated enough to Father that it doesn't concern them how they look. That, I believe, is most honorable. To be so wrapped up in following our Creator that we forget how different we look. Shalom, Nachshon You still do not get the point. It is more important for you to become unclean, then it is for someone to be offended, and I am specifically speaking of new believers, or new Messianics. That is how this controversty started. There are some new people on this forum. Specifically women. They are new to the  observant lifestyle, or seeking. To insist that they suddenly observe Mitzvot that is in their past life was so foriegn will not lead them toward full observance, but instead turn them away. I am sorry if I misunderstood that you were speaking specifically of your congregation and your practice. Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 27, 2006 12:18:31 GMT -8
I am not saying that we should avoid becoming unclean. I am simply insisting that we remember the commandments to purify ourselves. I am not objecting to anyone who says "I'm not there yet." I am only objecting when someone suggests that any commandment no longer holds true. However, sir, I would like to point to a friend of mine, she was not raised in a religious household, has never been religious at all, until recently she came to an understanding of . She had not been keeping a month when she first began to observe the laws of niddah. I admit, it took my family four years to come to that point. But we were without excuse. She is a challenge to us all. Do we dare to go so far as she? Shalom, Nachshon |
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 27, 2006 13:16:20 GMT -8
I am not saying that we should avoid becoming unclean. I am simply insisting that we remember the commandments to purify ourselves. I am not objecting to anyone who says "I'm not there yet." I am only objecting when someone suggests that any commandment no longer holds true. However, sir, I would like to point to a friend of mine, she was not raised in a religious household, has never been religious at all, until recently she came to an understanding of . She had not been keeping a month when she first began to observe the laws of niddah. I admit, it took my family four years to come to that point. But we were without excuse. She is a challenge to us all. Do we dare to go so far as she? Shalom, Nachshon Nachson, Baruch HaShem that she came to this level of observance so quickly. This is wonderful if this conviction came through the Ruach Elohim. Realize as I said before that there are many new people here on this forum. They are new to observance. Some are searching and seeking. If they disagree with something we believe to be without question a mitzvot, then we are to lovingly show them their error. You must keep in mind that many people come into Observant Messianic Judaism from a Hellenistic christian perspective. These things are foreign to them, as they have been taught that the is not for today. Neither Reuel or any of the moderators here would argue with you regarding the need to follow all of the commandments, but again there are others here. We want to be able to gently move them to a more observant lifestyle, and not turn them away because we are inflexible when we discuss these things with them. Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 27, 2006 14:07:13 GMT -8
Sir, I am one of those that came from a Hellinistic Christian background. I was a Southern Baptist until I was about 11 or 12 years old. It has only been in the last few years that we have come to understand the . Shalom, Nachshon |
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 28, 2006 18:54:30 GMT -8
Sir, I am one of those that came from a Hellinistic Christian background. I was a Southern Baptist until I was about 11 or 12 years old. It has only been in the last few years that we have come to understand the . Shalom, Nachshon All the more reason for you to understand what I am saying. I am sure your family did not immediately begin to observe all the commandments, but came into as they were revealed. Shabbat Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 28, 2006 20:54:53 GMT -8
Yes, sir. But once we began to keep , we might say we weren't ready to keep something yet, but we would never deny a single commandment. That is my objection. |
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 29, 2006 12:31:36 GMT -8
Yes, sir. But once we began to keep , we might say we weren't ready to keep something yet, but we would never deny a single commandment. That is my objection. I think that I have already said that on this I am in agreement. This is the important point I am trying to make to you. Many of the people who come here to Ahavat Elohim have not even made the decision to be observant. They are seeking, searching, and trying to learn the truth. We are here to help them. I agree that we need to teach them, and they need to learn the importance of observance to include following all the Mitzvot. However, we are always going to have those who sojourn here that are not at that place yet. They can disagree with us, and tell us that Mitzvot are not for today, but we still need to lovingly correct them, and not be so forceful as to turn them away, or turn them off to the delight of following . Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 29, 2006 12:52:35 GMT -8
Sir, I've already said, I believe is an offensive thing. It is naturally offensive to anyone who is not following it. But the moment we are able to overcome it's offensiveness, and step into , it becomes the most beautiful thing in the world. I believe that coming to , for a Christian, is overcoming the revultion that has been engrained in us from our earliest memories. I have a great deal of respect for you, sir, but this is one area that you cannot understand, because you were raised keeping . I have seen so many of my brothers and sisters coming from Christianity and because they never really overcame that mind-block that "This is a burden" or "this is repulsive" they half-heartedly "observe" . What is the use in that? It is not until we are willing to completely leave that behind that we are able to truly obey the . If I am making it sound repulsive, I am making it no more so than it already is to the Christian mind. My first teacher is one of the most offensive men I know (that's not slander. He'll openly admit it himself.) So why am I here today? I just realised how hilarious it is that you and I are sitting here, both talking about observance of every Mitzvah. I'm the one here in Karaite tzit-tziot, who flipped half a dozen light-switches yesterday, and believing that the Oral is nothing more than fairy-tales. Then you, one of the more Orthodox men on the website...lol. It's just funny. Shalom, Nachshon |
|
|
|
Post by Rick on Oct 29, 2006 16:15:33 GMT -8
 shows us what we need to cede to HaShem. As we continue to shed 'self', to empty. The more we become filled. The more we are filled, the more we reflect Mashiach. Berachot b'Yeshua Rick
|
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 29, 2006 19:15:10 GMT -8
Sir, I've already said, I believe is an offensive thing. It is naturally offensive to anyone who is not following it. But the moment we are able to overcome it's offensiveness, and step into , it becomes the most beautiful thing in the world. This is no different than the un-believers who scoff at christians and their following of Messiah. may be offensive, but we do not need to be. We are called to be like Moshiach. He was the living, breathing , and we should be the same. There is one thing to challenge, and there is another to be an offense. I have a great deal of respect for you as well Nachson, and for your zealousness for HaShem, and His . You would only be partially right here, for while I was raised in , there was a time that I walked away from it. As a matter of fact, I was a pastor of a christian church at one time. So, I think that I understand both sides. You say they observe half-heartedly, however Judaism would commend them for any observance. It is better that they observe in any way, then to ignore completely. We are all drawn differently, and you should thank HaShem everyday that He chose to bring this truth to you at such an early age. Being offensive as a teacher is not something to be proud of. This is not a Jewish concept, and would never be supported by any of the Chazal of Israel. Iron Sharpens Iron, as we learn and grow together. Thank G-d, He looks at our hearts, and not our actions. Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 29, 2006 19:56:29 GMT -8
Sir, you say that is offensive, but we don't have to be, then you say that we have to be living . How can we be both? Oh. I'm sorry. I was under the impression that you came to this understanding directly from Judaism. Please forgive me. But Yaqub would not. He tells us that to violate one commandment is the same as to violate them all. It's like when one of my christian sisters told me that we were free from the burden of "those levitical oridnances." I told her that if that was what she thought of , by no means should she keep it. If we are going to treat it lightly, we may as well keep none at all, and throw ourselves entirely at the mercy of YHWH. Does Judaism always have everything right? I think we forget that we're part of Israel, not just of Judah. Yes. If He looked at our actions we would all be doomed. Shalom, Nachshon |
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Oct 30, 2006 3:14:46 GMT -8
Nachson, Are you convinced that the method of practice that you have recommended for niddah is ? It seems to me that no one is against obeying ; but that the practice that you've suggested is extreme. Proverbs brings us such wisdom as "It is a man's honor to avoid strife, but a fool is quick to quarrel." (20 v. 3), "Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (12 v. 18), "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Paul put it this way, Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. (Col 4:6) It was the tripping up of rabbinic Judaism to suggest that the hardest way, the extreme position, must be the righteous one. Messiah Yeshua spoke more against this perspective than against any individual sin. |
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Oct 30, 2006 12:55:14 GMT -8
Sir, you say that is offensive, but we don't have to be, then you say that we have to be living . How can we be both? I did not say was offensive, I said it may be, as I was coming from your perspective. In other words, you may think that is supposed to be offensive, but you do not need be. I do not think that is offensive. I think it is beautiful, graceful, and merciful, as we ought to be. No problem. My dear Nachson, quoting Yaacov is a good thing, but practicing reductionism is not. The passage in Yaacov has a particular contextual point to be made, which is not related to our discussion. If we are talking about pure unadulterated Biblical Judaism then yes, and not all of Judaism is in opposition to Biblical Judaism. In all of my years of study, you will not convince that Messianic Judaism is so far removed for Judaism that I am to be an offense to people in my observance, and that is in of itself an offense to people. I do not believe this lines up with the teachings of Moshiach. Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
Seeker2
Junior Member
"I will seek Your face in righousness;I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness."
Posts: 53
|
Post by Seeker2 on Oct 30, 2006 14:27:38 GMT -8
What a can of Worms!!  The is NOT OFFENSIVE, but our means of practice could be which would drive people away. Maybe if we all agreed not to touch or shake hands with anyone and we all carried a towel to sit on incase the previous occupier of our seat was unclean we would not cause offense? That would be the only way as not to single anyone out and humiliate them publically. It could work. Or we men and women could sit on opposite sides of the room and have designated "unclean" chairs assigned which would only be known to the people on that side of the room so no men would know who was was or wasnt menstrating, and women would know who was or was not unclean. I will miss sitting with my husband and sons, but oh well...guess I can get over that. Visitors could have a special visitor section in case they were unclean... I'm not sure that we can get out of shaking their hands though. Maybe we can have designated people who will go immerse after just incase and they could greet the visitors. Hmmmm.... What do you think? I think it could work....Visitors dont even have to know why we do things that way, and we can explain when they are ready to know. ( hope they dont get the idea that we discriminate against women or we are like the Muslims!) We will certainly remain clean in the assembly...Its the bus ride home Im worried about.  (Oh yeah, the towel!) |
|
|
|
Post by Nachshon on Oct 30, 2006 22:57:54 GMT -8
My point is not that we should remain at all times clean, but that in certain cases it is possible, without being humiliated, to tactfully inform someone of our unclean state. The way I proposed, about wearing red, is not even one that my family practices. It is one suggestion. One thought of how it might be able to be done. I have already stated, I simply don't have enough clothes. That is why I generally don't sit down a work (thankfully I work in such a way that that is possible, I know that isn't possible for everyone) and other places. However, if I do become unclean I'm not going to have a cow, I simply would like if those who know would to the courtesy of letting me know. Now I remember why I'm anti-social. <G> j/k (well, I am anti-social...but that's just my nature. Nevermind. Off-topic. Let's just leave it at "j/k." lol.) No, I'm sorry if I was not clear. is offensive to those not walking in it. It is offensive to even suggest to a Christian that Father desires us to keep His . Please do not misunderstand me, I love the , I think it is the most beautiful thing in the world. But doesn't it say that it's foolishness to the world? akhiy yitzkhaq, either we are following the words of Deuteronomy and following with all our heart, soul, and strength, or we are not. The requirment is to take up our staves and follow Him, I believe He will accept nothing less. Ma'am, please don't be sarcastic with me. I just finished doing school until midnight, then dealing with a frustrating situation for about half an hour. I don't think I can handle it right now. Touching is not so much the issue, as where we sit. That is a difficulty. I don't think I can think clearly at the moment. oyi va'avoyi. I am trying to suggest what I think are reasonable solutions, and I'm sorry if they're not reasonable, but I've seen them work. I do believe it is important to remain clean, but not the end of the world if I become unclean. However, if I sit where a menustrating woman has sat, and don't mikva myself and my clothes, and remain unclean until evening, I believe that is a sin. I'm sorry if that is offensive, but your quarrel is not with me. Shalom, Nachshon |
|
observant lifestyle, or seeking. To insist that they suddenly observe Mitzvot that is in their past life was so foriegn will not lead them toward full observance, but instead turn them away.
The 
(Oh yeah, the towel!) 
