Family Purity

[Mark]

We have to be carefule, though, in our zeal for piety (reverence for Adonai) that we don't add to , making what He has designed for our joy and our life to become a weight of burden or worse yet, a stumbling block.

There is nothing wrong or damaging in what you suggest, Nachson, if it is a voluntary act of worship agreed upon by the members of your community. Yet, at the same time, it clearly goes beyond the mandate of .

Ladies and gentlemen, it is okay that our congregations are not card-board cut-outs of one another. I have found the variations to our methods of worship extremely valuable. That is notto say that we are all right in our practices or that everything we require is necessary. It is to say that, as servants of Adonai in the love of Messiah, we are not capable of demonstrating the fulness of His love: so there are a variety of aspects we learn of Him from and through one another. It would be wrong to tell the women in your fellowship who wear a symbol to warn that they are in niddah that they are not fully participating in the love and worship of Adonai. It is inappropriate for you to tell others that they must.

Yeshua was rendered unclean or else He would have been hedging Himself as distinctly above the people to whom He ministered, not willing to bear the fullness of human existance. Philippians 2:6-8 tells us that this was not the case. He experienced human uncleanness without sin.

When I said that uncleanness only dealt with holy things, I assumed we were discussing the uncleanness of people. I apologize for not making that distinction.

The statement you made, "I just hae the guts to tell people," concerns me a little bit; and if I may take a moment to rabbit trail, please indulge me for just a moment.

Your zeal and understanding of Scripture is commendable and we are very impressed with your knowledge and handling of the Scriptures. Once, I held a similar position of yours: "people need to hear the truth and I'm not going to let any concern for their sore toes get in my way." There was a old woman I met who was bitter and angry because a man had married a physically abusive husband and took his wife completely away, never to be heard from again. She said, "I hope that man burns in Hell!" I lit into her with my Bible open, the Messiah's love covers all sins, she must learn to forgive and such like. I didn't let up for probably ten minutes, condemning her anger as opposed to promoting the love and grace of God. When I was done, silence hung on the room. No one would look at one another, let alone me or that woman. The Spirit of God came down heavy on me in that moment and I knew, somehow that in my righteous indignation, I had sinned. For three days, God pressed upon me that this woman that I had verbally accosted was His child and I had bullied her in the playground. After a day, I said, "Okay, Lord, I get it!" He said, "No, I don't think you do." Over and over I was reminded of failings in my life (pretty gross and blatant ones) that others let pass. God showed me sin in my life that I was not mature enough to see or understand. Finally, after three days, the Spirit lifted off my shoulders, and I felt the warmness of Abba Adonai. Then He said to me, "You know, My Word is the sharp sword: able to divide between joints and marrow, soul and spirit; but it is also the healing balm of Gilead. Don't you ever get those two confused again."

[Nachshon]

"There is nothing wrong or damaging in what you suggest, Nachson, if it is a voluntary act of worship agreed upon by the members of your community. Yet, at the same time, it clearly goes beyond the mandate of ."
I'm sorry, I saw that someone thought I was teaching that as a commandment, so I tried to clarify, but I guess I did a poor job of it. For clarity's sake: wearing a red scarf is far from a commandment, it was a suggestion of one way to warn people, which would be less embarrasing to us as westerners than coming out and saying "I'm unclean." It was one suggestion, nothing more.
My point was not that He didn't become unclean, and this probably wasn't the place for it, but it was that, in those particular instances I don't believe that He became unclean. Did He ever have a seminal emission? Most likely. He died and was buried, in which case He must have been unclean. There are other cases. I'm sorry, I really shouldn't have broached that issue here. It was pretty much a pointless rabbit-trail.
"When I said that uncleanness only dealt with holy things, I assumed we were discussing the uncleanness of people. I apologize for not making that distinction."
Oh. lol. Sorry. I see that now. *turns very, very red*
Sir, I used to step on a lot of toes. I don't so much anymore. I do still step on some toes, though, because I believe that is the nature of truth. It does that sometimes. I try to be careful when I am dealing with someone who is healing, or someone who doesn't have an understanding of Father and His . However, in this case we are dealing with people who have an understanding of , and their only objection to keeping a commandment is that it is socially unacceptable. In western culture these things are embarrasing. It is extremely embarrasing the first time one wears tzit-tziyot in front of old Christian friends, but it is a commandment. "you shall make fringes..." It is very embarrasing to tell someone you can't eat because it isn't Kasher. But it is a commandment, "these things shall be unclean to you..." seems embarrasing to us as humans, but it shouldn't matter.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Seeker2]

No, Nachshon, this goes beyond embarassment or not wanting to be different or stand out...I would die if you told me that you were unclean in that way! Its what my kids call TMI (too much information!). We have a right to privacy and nowhere in the does it imply otherwise, and I have a right to not have to know intimate details of other people's personal lives as well! :-[You may feel that you are being rightous in this, but it may be that in your zeal for (which is good!) you are no longer walking in love. I am new to this " obsevance" so I dont claim to have all the answers here...to the contrary, I am here to learn to be more so....but this is one I'm leaving to the Lord. Paul told us not to destroy the work of G-d for the sake of food, well I think it would also be wise not to destroy to work of G-d for the sakes of your purity (which was also the issue in the food debate in Roamans, if I am not mistaken.). We women and girls are very sensitve creatures most of the time. It would deeply offend our sense of modesty and decency to openly reveal such a personal thing and we dont want to know your personal buisness either. ???But I guess you may be in a catch 22 here since it does say "Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before G-d. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith: for whtever is not from faith is sin." Rom. 14:22-23.
Also consider that this issue could be a huge stumbling block to alot of seekers of the . I think a teenage girl would rather undergo circumcision than wear a red scarf indicating to the teenage boys in the congregation that she is unclean in this way! Again, in a society where no one observes the laws of physical purity, it would be almoost impossible to remain clean. Have you ever tried NOT to catch the flu while those around you are "contaminated?" How successful were you???

[Nachshon]

This is easier than avoiding flew. It doesn't float on the air.
You appeal to female delicacy. I would like to point out to you that, to westerners, Jewish culture seems extremely crass and earthy. Why? Because these things, seminal issues, Niddah, etc, are all just a part of life, but westerners have turned them into some kind of social taboo. Why on earth would we do that? Just like westerners have taught us men to dispense with our emotions, they've taught us to be secret about the workings of our bodies. This is purely a cultural issue, and I'm really not into western culture.
Now, depending on the person, I can be delicate, and simply tell them that I'm unclean. That leaves open a wealth of possibilities. I squashed a bug, for instance, accidentally ate something unkasher, sat an unclean place, touched an unclean person, etc.
However, it is more difficult for women in niddah, because they have to be aware of where they sit. The only other option is to be like Rachel, who wouldn't even rise for Laban, because she was in Niddah. (I find it funny that we're calling it Niddah. It's a sign of our western sensitivity, because we don't want to come out and say what it is, we say it in Hebrew. Like the old Jewish proverb; if you don't have anything nice to say, say it in Yiddish. :-D)

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Seeker2]

I wish it were as simple as you are saying, but it isnt. The jews may have been "earthy" about somethings, but some things they were modest about as well (and i think Rachel remained seated to hide her father's idols under her than out of modesty.) Flu may float on the air, but MRSA doesnt so I'll swap examples. MRSA is a microbe that used to be found only in acute care setting but now is to be found colonating in over 20% of the general population. (It is only spread through contact.) I know from experience that hand washing and even careful considerations cant keep you from not being contaminated with the bugs you are around. It's simple fact. The bugs are everywhere! Now, you do what you will with the information, but I still maintain that some things can not be accomplished outside the land of Isreal. At that time, many things will be restored as they were (and hopefully the curse to increase our conception removed so that we will not suffer this condition often!) Regardless, I think it is time to agree to disagree. Peace to you my brother. I respect your opinion!

[Nachshon]

Yes, she did. But if it had been uncustomary, Laban would have known that something was up.
So we may as well forget the whole thing, right? is impossible to follow. I always knew those Christians were right.
Let it not be! The point is not what is or is not possible. The point is how far are we willing to go for the sake of ? How does the song go? "We will abandon it all, for the sake of the Call...wholly devoted to live and to die, for the sake of the call!" Perhaps it is not possible, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive for clealiness. And on Shabbat I make it a special point to keep clean, and on the Shabbats and the Feasts, it is sometimes possible to keep clean...as long as you don't come too close to most of your Messianic brethren. :-)
But the question is not about others, it is about you. What are you going to do?
I'm afraid I cannot agree to disagree just yet, until I have offered one last question. If you were to come into contact with a person who was determined to follow the laws of ritual purity. Supposing that at this time you were in niddah, you had sat in a place, and he was about to sit down where you had been sitting. What do you do? If he sits there, he is unclean, and must wash himself and his clothes in water. So what do you do?

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Firestorm]

;D No one has indicated to whom I'm supposed to bring my two turtledoves to for the sacrifice when it's all done ?(Lev.15:29) There isn't a Temple right now.
Also as Yeshua is our great High Priest and has cleansed us all with his sacrificial death we don't need to do this any more. He only said "Come unto me." He never said "Don't come near me if you're menstruating." While it's true that menstruating women weren't allowed in the Tabernacle or the Temple not a word is mentioned about the synagogue.
Many on this forum seem to believe that absolutely nothing changed with Yeshua's death and the destruction of the Temple despite the fact there are many of 613 mitzvot that we can't do because of that.
Some of the actions described in this thread are nothing more than spiritual abuse with lame attempts at using scripture to justify them. I wouldn't be part of a congregation that employed such abusive tactics and would warn others away from it. This is just plain wrong and no amount of artful theological circumlocution will convince me otherwise.

[Blake]

Not all the 613 mitzwot are for everyone anyway, even when the Temple stood. Some were for Kahanes, others for Leviim. A man cannot keep the laws of niddah. etc.
There is no temple, so we cannot bring sacrifices. However, the laws of niddah are still in full, and complete effect. There is nothing keeping women from fulfilling them to this day, and if you refuse too you are in rebellion of the and the G-d who dicated it to Moshe.

If the laws of niddah are "spiritual abuse" you accuse G-d of spiritual abuse.

You either choose to keep , or you don't. You don't pick and choose. You do all the commandments that are required of you, or you do none. There's no point in keeping koscher, or keeping the Sabbath if you plan to break the laws if niddah.

[Nachshon]

Sir, your objection is mute. You are attempting to compair a mitzwa we cannot fulfill with one that we can. Apples and oranges, sir.
I did not say that a woman shouldn't enter the synagogue when menustrating.
If you want my honest opinion, the only thing that changed is that we went from the imperfect to the perfect tense. From "He shall be called" to "He was called." Nothing else has changed. What did Yeshua say? "On yood or one tittel will by no means pass from the until everything happens." It is true that many mitzwot cannot be fulfilled without the Temple, but remaining separate is not one of them.
You tell me that I make lame attempts at using Scripture, and yet you use none to prove your position, and do not point out any real errors I have made in using Scripture. If you are going to say that I have misused it, please be fair and show specific instances. Whatever I can do, I will do. The fallacy of the Christians has been to say, "obviously we cannot keep all of it." It leads to the conclusion "we don't have to keep any of it." I am determined to do any and everything that I possibly can. If we are not dedicated to this extent, why do we even bother with any of it?

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's please take a minute or two to breathe a little while.

What Nachson is offering are suggestions that he has seen work in the community that he worships in. He was clear (at least to me) that he is not putting the scarf thing out there as mandated in : just one perspective. It is unique, I would say even rare, even in orthodox assemblies, but because he states that it has been successful, it is valid. My suggestion is that if it is not something any of you would feel comfortable participating in, you are free to experience worship at a majority of places that don't practice what Nachson has suggested.

There is more than one interpretation of how cleansing should occur and what are the conditions of uncleanness even within the strictest orders of Judaism. Please forgive the misunderstandings and miscommunications that have boiled to the top. Hopefully, there is some valuable words that can be gleaned from the varying perspectives.

[Seeker2]

Yes, I agree with Mark. That is what I was trying to say. I am not saying we should throw the out, but that we should folow it as best we can in the circumstances we find ourselves in (outside Isreal.) It does make a difference that we are not there and there is no temple, but what makes a bigger difference is that Yeshua has come. I think He did change things in that we are cleansed by Him. What would I do if I were in synagoge and a man was going to sit where I had sat??? Nothing. He takes the risk apon himself to sit where menstrating woman sit everytime he walks outside his house and sits ANYWHERE (Hello...remember the MRSA example?) And I believe I also take the risk not menstrating in touching or sitting with menstrating women (and unclean men as well, which lets not forget the multitude of them!)
I would like to add that I dont consider it an insult to be "accused" of christian thought as everything they believe is not wrong just as everthing Messianics believe is not right. The point is that we are here to strive to learn and understand G-d better and grow closer to Him in thought and practice. We do this through His word. I admit that I have not understood as much as I could have, but I also confess that I have not been satisfied with that, which is why I am here. I am agreeing to disagree because I am "endevering to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." I am not interested in being right if it means sowing discord. That, I believe, is the "higher law" at work here. (I just cant resist one more comment about Rachel : You can bet it was more a practical matter of her not rising! Im sure it was the custom as they did not have the "super absorbancy hygiene products" that we have today and her father would not wish to cause an "accident". (Earthy enough? ) And lets not over look the fact that during this time we women are crampy and often ill. )
Ok friends, that's all for me on this I hope. I dont know about ya'll but this isnt my favorite subject, and if we want to continue I think we should switch it to the uncleaness of men. Its only fair.

[Firestorm]

Seeker2 More eloquently put than I could have done. Your words reflect the love of Yeshua.

[Nachshon]

My problem with your defense of yourself is not that you think it 'can't be done' or that you're "not at that point yet." I have no problem with either of those. THe objection I have to your defense of yourself is that you're saying that it isn't a command to keep these laws anymore.
The only difference not having a Temple makes is in the Feasts of Aliya and in Sacrifices. Everywhere else we can at least endeavor to keep the . Is it harder? Naturally. But why should that force us to not keep it?
I have to disagree with your statement that things have changed in the strongest way. Yeshua said, "For truly I tell you, till Heaven and Earth pass away, not even one yoth or a dash shall pass away from the law, until everything occurrs." Matt. 5:18. None of the has passed away.
And yet Sha'ul would tell you, "Therefore if meat causes my brother to stumble, I will eat no meat, so that I may not cause my brother to offend." I Corinthians 8:13 (Lamsa) If a man is in a synagogue, he would assume that he is in a place of -keepers. If he is elsewhere, you are right, he is taking it upon himself, but not in a body that he thinks is observant, even if he is decieved in so thinking. Would this not be causing your brother to stumble?
Most unclean men cannot make the place where they sit unclean.
No, but I have to say that 90% of what they believe is a very twisting of the truth. Take salvation by faith for example. It is true, as long as we keep faith in the context of what James taught us about it. But the Christians don't.
There is no higher law than . I am not interested in being right for the sake of being right. I am interested in defending truth.
Of course it was practical. Did I say it wasn't? I merely defended it being customary.
Sure. Why not? What would you like to discuss?

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Pioneer]

Here is about two cents worth of unscholarly thought on this subject, while I do not try to find ways to be unclean, my wife is old and past the point of sleeping alone. Yeshua speaking; Mt 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
A while back a Jewish Rabbi came to my area to show the items created for the Temple to be built as soon as God's time is right. Many people came to hear him speak and show the items, young and old, male and female, this Rabbi at the end of the meeting greeted all who came and never abstained from touching each ladies hand if she extended it to shake his hand, no doubt some of these people had touched someone unclean, possibly had eaten pork for lunch, maybe had touched a dead thing or person earlier in the day! This being the case the Rabbi was rendered unclean and would remain unclean until "Even" some 20 hours later. What do you suppose this learned man, keeper of , did in this case?
Wouldn't he just wash his clothes and enter a mikva and be clean again?

Shalom

[Nachshon]

As Mark pointed out, it is not a sin to be unclean. It becomes a problem when you don't do something about it. I expect to become unclean. However, if I merely touch a dead unclean thing, or an unclean person, I'm unclean until evening. If I carry one, or sit in the place where a woman in her period has sat, then I have to wash myself and my clothes in water and be unclean until evening. Now, I don't expect someone who doesn't keep to tell me, but I would expect someone who is observant of to. Do you see the difference?

Shalom,
Nachshon