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Post by Yochana on Feb 6, 2007 9:40:36 GMT -8
Exodus 35:3 You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat.
In a practical sense, how does one observe this command?
Does it apply to driving on Shabbat? What about the use of electricity?
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 6, 2007 10:49:18 GMT -8
Shalom Yochana! Your question demonstrates the clear need for an Oral interpretation of  . There are 2 different schools of thought with regard to this mitzvah. 1) From this mitzvah, the Sages derived that it is permissible to kindle a fire before Shabbat starts, but it is prohibited to kindle one during Shabbat. 2) From this mitzvah, the Karaites decreed that one may not have any lit fires in their homes during Shabbat. The laws of observing this mitzvah are complex, but you are generally safe if a) you do not create any fire during Shabbat, b) you do not transfer the pre-existing fire to any other source during Shabbat, and c) you do not attempt to increase the size of the pre-existing flame. Definitely. If you have a standard car (non-electric, though that poses it's own problems) then the engine is a combustible engine, and therefore by just starting the car you have created a fire. I had held to an earlier position (through some false teaching) that it was permissible to drive on Shabbat so long as you only went to Synagogue. I have since learned that unless a life is in danger, what good does it do to violate one mitzvah in order to fulfill another? The best course of action is to walk on Shabbat. The limit of the Sabbath Day's Journey (Sabbath boundry) is 2000 cubits outside city limits. And "city limits" is defined as residential housing. If you are not within walking distance, then I would recommend you move (if possible) to be closer to where you attend. There are actually a couple different opinions on this. 1) Turning on electronic equipment is equivalent to kindling a fire 2) Turning on electronic equipment is creating a circuit I personally need to research this area further as my wife contends that electricity is permitted since the current is pre-existing and nothing is being created. |
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Post by Yochana on Feb 6, 2007 11:10:08 GMT -8
So if walking is the only option for transportation then what about those that live in rural areas? Are farmers supposed to give up farming and move into city ghettos?
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 6, 2007 13:41:59 GMT -8
Exodus 35:3 You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat. In a practical sense, how does one observe this command? Does it apply to driving on Shabbat? What about the use of electricity? This is one place that I disagree with Karaism. They say that you cannot even get any benifit from artificial light on the Shabbat. I disagree. The command is to not start a fire on Shabbat. However, we also have to remember that we're commanded not to work. It's alright to keep a fire going on Shabbat, but only so long as it doesn't create labor. If it comes on automatically, no problem. I also don't have a problem with "electric fires." The term used for "kindle" is ba'ar, which means "consume." Electricity doesn't consume anything. Well, not in the sense of what you're doing. The fire at the power plant was already going, and the people working there would be working anyway. You're not creating any work, or igniting a fire to flip on a lightswitch. Shalom, Nachshon |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 6, 2007 13:48:07 GMT -8
Although I'm "new" to I would use Scripture as authority and not man. What does scripture say? Marc |
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Post by Blake on Feb 6, 2007 15:04:30 GMT -8
The scriptures are clear that you are not to kindle a fire on Shabbos. It's absolutely crystal, and operating a motor vehicle is not only starting a fire but continually adding fuel to it.
Exodus 35:3 You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat.
If you are a farmer, form a minyan or pray alone.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 6, 2007 23:09:57 GMT -8
What is clear to one is sometimes just what has been clearly taught to such a one.  I don't believe that driving short distances on Shabbat if necessary is breaking the actual command. Obviously the command did not deal with car driving. Turning the key of car ignition is not what this command is speaking of. It was connected to the prohibitions of work on Shabbat. Take a look.... 'Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Shabbat of solemn rest to YHVH: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations on the day of Shabbat.'" - Shemot (Exo.) 35:2-3 Remember the man that gathered the kindling and was put to death?? We must read scripture in proper context and not view Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism as an abosulate authority on all matters within the Messianic community. Besides the Rabbinic Jewish community is not even united on this issue. In regards to ...it is the words of Elohim that are authoritative, not the traditions or oral of Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism. Members on this forum should be aware of this as they proceed. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 7, 2007 18:46:12 GMT -8
I was just wondering...what about the Menorah?
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 7, 2007 19:40:28 GMT -8
Easy... It was lit before Shabbat.
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 7, 2007 20:36:10 GMT -8
Easy... It was lit before Shabbat. Ahh. Makes sense. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 7, 2007 22:33:12 GMT -8
And, what about the following?...
"On the day of Shabbat two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenth parts of an efah of fine flour for a meal offering, mixed with oil, and the drink offering of it: this is the burnt offering of every Shabbat, besides the continual burnt offering, and the drink offering of it."
- B'midbar (Num.) 28:9-10
"When the prince shall prepare a freewill offering, a burnt offering or shalom offerings as a freewill offering to YHVH, one shall open for him the gate that looks toward the east; and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his shalom offerings, as he does on the day of Shabbat: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate." - Yechezkel (Ezek.) 46:12
So, we see this happened in the past and will happen in the future. A burnt offering "on the day of Shabbat". Even, if they kept the fire for the burnt offering going continually (which they did), they would have to offer new burnt offering on Shabbat that would consume what ever they offered. Granted, I could be missing something here, but it seems that in effect this process would be setting ablaze something new...thus kindling a fire.
But, I would view this as a necessary must for the ministry of the Mishkan and Temple. And, for some, driving a car on Shabbat is a must to even keep the mitzvah for the holy convocation on Shabbat. Again, we must read the command in it's proper context. The prohibition of lighting a fire on Shabbat is directly connected to unauthorized work on the holy day.
Shalom chaverim,
Reuel
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Post by Mark on Feb 8, 2007 6:04:00 GMT -8
Just a few days ago, I was speaking with a woman who "churches" on Sunday and asked if I was offended with that. I told her plainly, "If two people define sin exactly the same way on everything than one of them doesn't care." This doesn't mean that we needn't pursue truth and righteousness with passion and zeal, in love for our Lord and for our brethren. It does mean that all things must be seasoned with grace. In regard to driving on the Sabbath, we could get to the utmost of technicality to suggest that the combustion in an engine is not a fire but a series of explosions. I think that goes over the edge into the realm of rediculous. Yet, so does the idea that you cannot turn on a light switch because you may somewhere be causing fuel burning generators to operate. The common rabbinical rule of thumb is that you may neither create nor destroy- kindling a fire is creating, turning off the alarm clock is destroying. Yet, making a peanut butter sandwich is creating and eating it is destroying. I find myself scratching away what little hair I have left. It comes into dynamic perplexity with regard to driving a car on the Sabbath; especially when we see that also commands that we assemble together on the Sabbath (Leviticus 23:3). Which command do we obey? Take just a few seconds to look at the context and circumstances of the commandment in Exodus 35:3. (This is where commands that you shall kindle no fire on the Sabbath day.) Moses has just come down from Mount Sinai... the second time and his face shown with a supernatural radiance. The last time Moses had seen the people of Israel they had been caught dancing naked in front of a pagan idol. They were deep doo and they knew it. Moses smashed the Law of God on the rocks, then ground up the pagan god and went back up onot the mountain. The Israeli's stared up into the cloud and fire that consumed the mountain, probably half expecting the lightening bolts to commense. Instead, Moses re-appears with new tablets and his face is so radiant that they can barely look at him. The very first thing that comes out of his mouth is to keep the Sabbath. There's something mysterious about an open flame, isn't there? I remember, in Jr High, spending hours with the lights off, poking the embers of the fireplace, listening to music (I think, most often it was Kenny Rogers on LP). Think of how many religious practices in how many varied cultures around the world use fire in their worship? I'd say it is a greater majority- especially in the near and middle Eastern pagan cultures of that day. Fire itself easily becomes an object of worship. Think of the practical uses of fire: light, warmth and work. First, we need to understand that fire was not typically used to heat the homes of the children in the wilderness, The tent structures had two compartments- one was for the people and the other for their animals. If you've ever spent any time in an active barn, the animals give off plenty of heat. There were no coleman lanterns. While fire was used for light, it could not be harnessed well enough to be very effective. If you've been camping recently, the fire in the pit gives off some light to help you not step on anybody... well at least not anybody who is very big at least; but not enough to really accomplish much. Fire was for work- for cooking and for making things like clay pots. It was also a part of worship. Now take a look, in your mind's eye at the camp of Israel. There was a fire burning, wasn't there? The Shekinah rested over the camp. In future days, the light would be the flame of the Menorah in the Tabernacle- a flam which never went out. To not kindle a fire on the Sabbath day is to simply say, "I AM your Light." I think the important lesson in the command is that, while it is important through our week to kindle fires and get things done- Adonai, on this one day is to be the center of our universe. All that stuff can just wait. We are to draw our light and warmth and sustenance from Him. If driving for you is a burden and a conviction from the Spirit of Adonai, if you say, I will walk to shul as an act of worship in obedience to Adonai, then Haleluiah! You have been given a precious gift. If walking several miles is a burden to you or not possible for you to obey the command to convocate; the do what is worship. At the same time, if your daughter's birthday falls on Saturday and she is used to having candles on her cake, you may have some priority issues to deal with in how you handle the Sabbath. |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 8, 2007 7:02:39 GMT -8
Mark I don't know if i'm agreeing with you or not. But, kindling a fire is kindling a fire to me. A literal fire; turning on the stove, lighting a candle. IMHO to go as far as starting your car is kindling a fire to me that's really stretching it. Getting too technical. It's like asking "Did you drive your car?" What's the say about driving your car? I know they didn't have cars back then. Marc |
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Post by Mark on Feb 9, 2007 6:20:48 GMT -8
I suppose I'm sort of riding the fence on this one. First, I drive a 15 passenger van on Shabbat. In fact, that's usually the only time in the week that it leaves the driveway. Yet, if one's convictions are such so as to not drive as an act of worship for Adonai, I would be loathe to take that from them. At the same time, to not fellowship with other believers as is commanded because they don't want to drive is a concern to me.
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Post by Yochana on Feb 9, 2007 8:50:37 GMT -8
I know at least a couple of messianic congregations that have encouraged their memebers to all buy homes in a new housing developement, thereby creating a community of believers within walking distance.
And I've seen discussion about trying to do something similar in a rural area - but have never actually seen that go beyond talk. Jobs in rural areas are often hard to come by - although we are expecting a great deal of growth in our small town in the next few months when a major employeer open's their doors - just in case anyone is interested in moving :-)
If everyone were messianic, then I would have no problem saying just meet with your close neighbors, and even living in a rural area we could probably come up with a 5-10 families that were within walking distance of each other. But reality is not everyone is messianic and it is a tremendous blessing that there is a small congregation here at all.
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