Kindling a fire on Shabbat

[Mark]

Shall I be a bit ludicrous? (as if that would be any surprise). As I crawl out of bed in my flannel pajamas, they spark regardless what day it is.

[Yitzchak]

nachshon said:

yitzchak said:

Shalom Nachson,

So, if halachah is an interpertation or "to walk" from holech, how do we determine the proper authority to follow.

In other words, you say that you think that starting the car is kindling a fire, and yet you do not follow the Oral Tradition of traditional Judaism. So, are you making your own halachah on the subject.



I ask, as for many within the Messianic Community, and even the leadership here has agonized over the subject of a Messianic halachah.

The debate had always ended with the individual community determining the proper halachah.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

I believe that the only authority for halacha is Mashiyakh. But really, most of the is not as complicated as rabbanites make it seem. It says don't kindle a fire. Starting a car kindles a fire. I don't see why we need a halachic authority to tell us that. Other than Yeshua's halacha, I think that all halacha should be given with the same disclaimer that Miqsat Ma'aseh HaTowrah was given. You will rejoice when you find that some of these are true.

Wouldn't holech come from halach, since halach is the qal and holech is the hoph'al? (at least I think it's Hoph'al...my Hebrew is improving, not good. )

From the same root, yes.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Nachshon]

mark said:

Shall I be a bit ludicrous? (as if that would be any surprise). As I crawl out of bed in my flannel pajamas, they spark regardless what day it is.

Is a shock of static electricity really a fire? "kindle," as I have said before, indicates consuming something. Nothing is being consumed. It is merely electrons jumping from your pajamas to your sheets. I don't see any fire involved.

[Mark]

The same technicality that distinguishes my getting out of bed in the morning from lighting candles is the same used to forbid (or allow) starting an internal combustion engine. It is not a fire; but a spark. The resulting mix of fuel and oxygen is not a fire but a series of explosions. Ask anyone who has dealt with explosives to any degree and they will tell you that there is no similarities between an explosion and a fire except the materials needed to create them. (My experience comes from the United States Marine Corps as a Combat Engineer).

Is a mitzvah for the purpose of burdening the worshiper? Is it for appearing more righteous than your neighbor? I would argue that it is neither: rather the mitzvot are fro fellowshiping in intimacy with God. It's important to do a "sanity check" when applying our interpretation of in such a way as makes it binding upon others. Here is my own method: where is clear, be clear. Where there is room for argument, live an example and pray (i.e. allow the Spirit of Adonai to work in the hearts of those that you feel are skirting or ignoring or avoiding the command.)

[Chizuk Emunah]

mark said:

The same technicality that distinguishes my getting out of bed in the morning from lighting candles is the same used to forbid (or allow) starting an internal combustion engine. It is not a fire; but a spark. The resulting mix of fuel and oxygen is not a fire but a series of explosions. Ask anyone who has dealt with explosives to any degree and they will tell you that there is no similarities between an explosion and a fire except the materials needed to create them. (My experience comes from the United States Marine Corps as a Combat Engineer).

Is a mitzvah for the purpose of burdening the worshiper? Is it for appearing more righteous than your neighbor? I would argue that it is neither: rather the mitzvot are fro fellowshiping in intimacy with God. It's important to do a "sanity check" when applying our interpretation of in such a way as makes it binding upon others. Here is my own method: where is clear, be clear. Where there is room for argument, live an example and pray (i.e. allow the Spirit of Adonai to work in the hearts of those that you feel are skirting or ignoring or avoiding the command.)

Shalom Mark. I hear what you're saying. You know I love a good debate though.

I would argue that there is a slight difference between your pajamas and a car. You are not actively "creating" the static electricity from you pajamas. It is already there. However, I agree with Nachshon here (boy this is starting to become a trend ) that one is actively creating something by starting an internal combustion engine.


A Marine huh? Semper Fi! So we have the Army and Marines represented here. Anyone else prior (or active) military?

[Nachshon]

Uh-oh. Natanel, quick! Think of something we disagree on!

[Tzav_laTzav]

A Marine huh? Semper Fi! So we have the Army and Marines represented here. Anyone else prior (or active) military?

I used to sneak into my first husband's office at night with him and file for him by flashlight so he could secretly work on the files of those who stole from the travel-pay office, making them pay the gov't back. Does that count?

[Mark]

I must disagree about the passiveness of startic a spark between my sheets and pajamas. There is nothing passive about me getting up in the morning. In fact, it often takes every ounce of will and determination that I can muster.

[Chizuk Emunah]

mark said:

I must disagree about the passiveness of startic a spark between my sheets and pajamas. There is nothing passive about me getting up in the morning. In fact, it often takes every ounce of will and determination that I can muster.

..... I know the feeling!

[Nachshon]

mark said:

I must disagree about the passiveness of startic a spark between my sheets and pajamas. There is nothing passive about me getting up in the morning. In fact, it often takes every ounce of will and determination that I can muster.

I'm sorry, please let me clarify, my argument has nothing to do with what is passive and what is active. In an internal combustion engine, gasoline is "consumed" that is broken down into fumes including water and carbon dioxide, and thus is fire. When sparks jump in your pajamas, that isn't fire. That is merely the exchange of excess electrons going from your pajamas to your sheats. Nothing is being consumed here.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

That's actually not true. The sparks occur from from friction placed upon small particulates of lint, dust and other materials, some of which are consumed in the process. It is the same thing- there is an ignited fuel, oxygen and friction.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

You guys are hilarious! Mark, you do have a point.

Starting a car kindles a fire. I don't see why we need a halachic authority to tell us that.

Unless you have some serious issues with your car (maybe like Mark's vehicle), I have never seen any person kindle a flame in a car. That is what the command says, right?...To kindle a flame. The example used in scripture would be an open flame and not an explosion. So, the halachah that some are developing is out of context with the scriptures.

Alright, I am taking it to the line...if you want to get technical, here you go In my estimation, according to the definitions that some are using to interpret operating a car as kindling a fire could also apply the same definitions for the metabolism of the human body. Oh yes, we have our own little engine running 24/7. Our metabolism and nervous system works with electricity (sparks if you will) and consumes fuel in the process. Is our own body kindling a fire on Shabbat according to your definitions?

I mean some Rabbis go so far as to develop halachah that prohibits them from engaging in a bowel movement on Shabbat....Oh, there are all kinds of reasons why this would not be lawful...straining...creating something new...I mean depending on how healthy you are...you could be on the sherutim for a while. So, the Rabbinic solution for some...use just as much energy and concentration to hold it all in while you have a funny look on your face during the entire shabbat.

I think the car issue is about on the same level of Rabbinic extremism. I mean, if you have to walk a considerable distance to attend the Shabbat convocation, wouldn’t it be in the spirit of Shabbat to simply drive and expend minimal energy? I mean, your engine in your body will have had to have work hard making all those electrical impulses and consuming all that energy as you schlep yourself to synagogue as apposed to the lifeless engine in your car consuming its fuel as you glide to synagogue in comfort with little or no effort on your part.

Also, you guys still didn't address my last example in my previous post regarding examples of fire on the Shabbat. But, for your convenience I will repost it

And, what about the following?...

"On the day of Shabbat two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenth parts of an efah of fine flour for a meal offering, mixed with oil, and the drink offering of it: this is the burnt offering of every Shabbat, besides the continual burnt offering, and the drink offering of it."
- B'midbar (Num.) 28:9-10

"When the prince shall prepare a freewill offering, a burnt offering or shalom offerings as a freewill offering to YHVH, one shall open for him the gate that looks toward the east; and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his shalom offerings, as he does on the day of Shabbat: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate." - Yechezkel (Ezek.) 46:12

So, we see this happened in the past and will happen in the future. A burnt offering "on the day of Shabbat". Even, if they kept the fire for the burnt offering going continually (which they did), they would have to offer new burnt offering on Shabbat that would consume what ever they offered. Granted, I could be missing something here, but it seems that in effect this process would be setting ablaze something new...thus kindling a fire.

But, I would view this as a necessary must for the ministry of the Mishkan and Temple. And, for some, driving a car on Shabbat is a must to even keep the mitzvah for the holy convocation on Shabbat. Again, we must read the command in it's proper context. The prohibition of lighting a fire on Shabbat is directly connected to unauthorized work on the holy day.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Vaneide]

Shabbat shalom, Reuel

Wise words. I agree completely. If I depends of rabbinic halachas to obey , I think I would never, never obey anything. From my point of view some rabbinic halachas are far away from the real 's spirit.

Vaneide.

[Seeker2]

Hmmm...well, this is how I see it. If I dont drive a car on shabbat, I will never be able to attend with my congregation as I live in a suburb and the synagoge I attend is 40 minutes away. No walking possible! Then I am reminded of the example Yeshua gave by allowing the diciples to pick grain on the shabbat and how he referred to David eating the showbread on the shabbat. For me, He underscored that we are allowed to gain nourishment on the sabbath, even if it stretches the "law of sabbath" as "man was not made for the sabbath but sabbath for man!" Now, not ever being allowed to attend (as well as 90% of the other members!) would not only demolish us individually, but our influence in the community would evaporate. There would be no Messianic synagoge in my city for all practical purposes! NO ONE would be recieving spiritual nourishment! That is not the intent of the law!(but that would be the result.) We dont live in a place or a situation where we can move and neither do most people. This is a big city and we live where we live because we can afford to and are safe. I think these points should be considered before causing people to feel guilty for driving to synagogue. Now the mall is adifferent matter......

[Mpossoff]

Didn't Yeshua "break" the decrees of man?

I believe we should live by the Word of G-d verus to the decrees of man.

By what referance is kindling a fire?

Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

Marc