Bar/Bat Mitzvah

[Bob]

Do Messianic "Goyim" observe the Bar/Bat Mitzvah?

[lawrenceofisrael]

Unless there is proof in the bible to do it why should we.

Its a good thing to teach children the gospel but the jewish talmudic commandments on that are irrelevant for us.

shalom

[Tyler]

The bar/bat mitzvah is a worthy tradition (one whose mention goes back as far as the 1st century) - and I'm not talking about shelling out massive amounts of $$$ to hire a KISS cover band for your kid and 150 of their closest "friends"... I mean taking advantage of a milestone in a young man/woman's life to teach them to take personal responsibilty for learning and observing the .

I would say that, in a Messianic Congregation, excluding pre-teen Gentiles from observing some kind of a bar mitzvah type coming of age ceremony would cause more harm than good. Such a distinction between Jewish kids and Gentile kids could lead to an exclusivism and Gentiles feeling marginalized. However, Gentiles should not be required to observe it.

On the other hand, a Messianic Gentile becoming Bar Mitzvah is technically a misnomer and gives mainstream Judaism and Christianity more ammo against Messianic Judaism.

I don't know... perhaps if there was a different name for it... a Gentile Bar/Bat Mitzvah?

I'd be interested in hearing how the various Congregations and affiliations represented here do it?

[lawrenceofisrael]

To Tyler.

It isn´t mentioned anywhere in the bible that Jews are to observe a bar Mitzvah. There is no difference between jews and gentiles so we serve under one Lord and share the same faith thus if jews had to conduct a bar mitzvah, gentiles would have to as well.

Remember we do not live according to Talmud. The main part of the Talmud is a lie and contradicting the bible.

So unless we have proof from the bible about a bar mitzvah why should anyone do it?

[Mark]

Talmud is commentary and discussion of Scripture by men who have studied Scripture and passed down their understanding throughout generations. Some of it is wonderful and enlightening. Other elements are biased and corrupt... just like any teaching or teachers. We ought not dishonor the sages of old simply because they have died or simply because they have not turned their people toward the living Messiah, just as we must not disregard nor dishonor those teachers who have committed their lives to understanding Messiah Yeshua, having little or no regard for .

We believe that the Bar Mitzvah is a valuable tool in bringing a young man into his role of responsibility within the Messianic community and toward .

Bar Mitzvah means "son of the commandment." As a young man approaches thirteen, he is taught how to live, .worshp and obey the mitzot of Adonai. He becomes intimate with the understandins of how the affects his life and balances his relationship between Adonai and the world. Yet, he is under the school-master: his father. It is his father who is watching his life, molding him and training him according to the Scriptures, bringing up in the way that he should go. When the youth turns 13, he is presented with the opportunity to Bar Mitzvah, provided he understands and accepts what that means.

The Bar Mitzvah is an opportunity for the young man to say to his father, "You have taught me well. I am ready to walk on my own." The idea is that to this date, it is his father's influence that causes him to walk according to the commandments. He worships the God of his father. To Bar Mitzvah is to declare that Adonai is his own God and that he will walk according to the mitzvot, not because Dad does, but because of his own relationship with the Most High.

While the specifics of the exercise is not specifically outlined in Scripture, as I will counter Lawerence, neither is the Passover Seder, it is a valuable tool for us in setting markers and goals for this very important process.

The Bat Mitzvah is not so much a thing, primarily because the woman is considered undert he "power" of her father until her marriage, when then she comes under the headship of her husband (Numbers 30); but there is no problem with her making a public declaration of her commitment to walk in the ways of .

[Tyler]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying about the Talmud Lorenz. And I completely agree with you Mark. We should be careful not to blindly accept the whole Talmud; to do so would be a great mistake. However, it would be as big of a mistake to completely marginalize it.

Many of the age old traditions that we practice are found in the Talmud. But it begs the question: are they traditions because they are in the Talmud? Or are they in the Talmud because they are traditions?

As Mark pointed out, we have many traditions not outlined in Scripture. Off hand I can think of several: the wedding Huppah, the sheva berachot, the groom breaking the glass, the wedding ring, the whole ceremony of the Brit Milah with Elijah's chair and the God-parents and the mohel (I don't know how competent I would feel circumcising my own son so I happen to appreciate the whole mohel tradition), and all the funeral traditions. Imagine if we did funerals strictly as outlined in Scripture - we'd plop the body in a cave and everyone would cry, end of funeral.

As for B'nei Mitzvah - I think this is a worthy tradition. And even if it is not expressly mentioned in Scripture there are enough clues there to validate it - especially as Messianic Jews with the mention in the Brit Chadashah of a 12 yr. old Yeshua publically discoursing in the Temple with the learned men (if Yeshua at 12 was not considered "Bar Mitzvah" by the elders would He have been allowed to speak in the Temple?).

I guess my question is (in line with Bob's) if we say the Messianic Gentiles can become b'nei mitzvah what commandments are they promising to observe? The command to circumcise their sons on the 8th day? We know that Gentiles are not obligated to circumcise so technically they cannot become B'nei mitzvah.

Just to clarify - in traditional Judaism Bar Mitzvah isn't a ceremony or a party, it is an automatic change of status. When a Jewish boy turns 13... whether he has a party or not... BOOM! His observance is his own obligation and no longer on his father's shoulders. I'm not saying I completely agree with this but this is the idea according to mainstream Judaism. In traditional Judaism Bar Mitzvah status is not voluntary - it automatically happens at 13 (ceremony or not) whereupon observance of mitzvot becomes mandatory.

SO... when Messianic Gentiles are bar/bat mitzvah'd how does this work? Are we saying they are now obligated to observe brit milah as well as all the other mitzvot? Or do we change the meaning of B'nei Mitzvah to something voluntary and primarily ceremonial and open to Gentiles? And if we do this does this make us look like fruitcakes to the Jewish world? (bear in mind it's not a bad thing to look like a fruitcake for the sake of Mashiach... but for Gentiles to observe a Jewish tradition in a way that dismisses the Jewish understanding of that tradition?!).

Anyway, it's a good question Bob.

That's why I suggested perhaps using a different name for the ceremony for Gentiles.

Any firsthand experience with this anyone? I've only ever seen Jewish kids become Bar/Bat Mitzvah.

[Prodigal Girl]

Tyler etc.
Life would be so much simpler if we each stayed in our own little cultural boxes, and did not venture to adapt any practices or languages from other groups. Fortunately, life is not that simple. It is rediculous and artificial to say to one culture or ethnicity "You may not speak my language or do anything that belongs to me and culture and not yours". It is a natural consequence that when two different cultural groups interract on a close basis, change happens. And sometimes that means adapting some things from "the others".
The strong disdain, from Christian quarters, for Jewish literature (as well as ignorance of it), is only matched by Jewish attitutudes towards the New Testament.
Both groups intersected on many points, and both also borrowed from the pagan cultures surrounding them.

[Mark]

First, if we are in any way going to attempt to gain credibility with mainstream Judaism, we must reject Yeshua as Messiah. Beyond that, nothing really matters.

We need to get past this idea that observance is an on/off switch. It's when your bride asks on your wedding day, "Do you love me?" Your answer is as passionate and sincere as it possibly can be; but twenty years down the road, you realize that you were but a child and had barely an inkling of what love truly is.

The Bar Mitzvah is the beginning of the journey. It is voluntary because it is the child now accepting responsibility for himself. Does Adonai punish children for their own sins or does He take it out on the father until the kid turns thirteen? I suppose we could speculate on that for a while; but Scripture seems to suggest that each person, regardless of age, is wooed and directed by the Spirit of Adonai.

One does not become a son of just because the father abdocates responsibility. He may well become the son of a lot of different things. To suggest that it is a natural and automatic progression in life is part of the arrogancy that has so trivialized the from mainstream Judaism.

Yet, if we understand the writings of Paul to invite the gentile to enter completely into this Jewish faith in the Messiah sent to Israel, to refer to our practices on anything other than Jewish terms would be a half-truth. We are not going to be legitimized by the Jewish community as a whole. This a fact that you're just going to have to get used to. Neither is the Christian community going to wrap their arms around us without reservation. We must be true to our commitment to following the most High. We must become ben . This processes in initiated in celebration by the Bar Mitzvah.

[Tyler]

Dec 2, 2008 17:53:06 GMT -8 Prodigal Girl said:

Tyler etc.
Life would be so much simpler if we each stayed in our own little cultural boxes, and did not venture to adapt any practices or languages from other groups. Fortunately, life is not that simple. It is rediculous and artificial to say to one culture or ethnicity "You may not speak my language or do anything that belongs to me and culture and not yours". It is a natural consequence that when two different cultural groups interract on a close basis, change happens. And sometimes that means adapting some things from "the others".

Yes, I agree and this is what we're discussing is it not - how two cultural groups (Jewish and Gentile) within a larger Messianic Community are to include each other. Yet, Jewish identity is far more than just cultural and includes (among other things) a peculiar identity that is larger than the Messianic Community. There is/are Gentile identity/ies as well. And although we are permitted to share we are not allowed to trade identities.

The Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a part of this greater Jewish identity.

This is why Bob's question is a good question. This is why some congregations do have bar mitzvah ceremonies for Gentiles and some don't.

Mark, the reason I brought up Mainstream Judaism was precisely because of this identity issue.
(please notice that I said that I did not completely agree with Mainstream Judaism's ideas about these things).

The issue isn't about gaining credibilty with mainstream Judaism, or legitimizing ourselves in their eyes (this won't happen until Messiah returns). The issue is about our witness and what kind of message we are sending.

And in they eyes Klal Yisrael b'nei mitzvah is strictly a matter of Jewish identity - not Gentile (who have their own identities).

Can you understand how it may seem like we Messianics could unintentionally send the wrong message:
"Rabbis! Jewish People! We don't care what you say or think, or that it's your tradition - we're going to do your tradition our own way. We're giving something inherent to your identity to another people... and we're doing it all the name of Jesus Christ."

I'm not saying this is the message we are speaking, but often that is how it could be heard.

On the other hand, like I said in my first post, neither should Gentiles be excluded or marginalized.

There has to be a way to handle this issue that preserves Jewish identity, respects the Greater Jewish Community and includes Gentiles Believers. And since the practice of these things are not strictly outlined in Scripture there is some leeway for tweaking our Messianic practice of these things?

Anyway, please understand that I am not trying to argue my own position here dogmatically (especially since I don't have a position yet). Nor am I trying to threaten anyone's convictions or practices. I just trying to hash out all the issues so that for myself I can reach a better understanding of what is true and right and good.

[Prodigal Girl]

I agree with everything you say, with one reservation. I believe, personally, that even though it may be said that "we will never be accepted by mainstream Judaism unless we reject Yeshua as Messiah", the reality is, that the rejection occurred then and since then for other reasons, as well. It is those other reasons that need to be scrutinized. If many Jews at the time DID see Yeshua as Messiah, including a great number of priests, according to the book of Acts, then other explanations deserve thought and study, by BOTH sides. There were enough that believed in Yeshua as Messiah that it created a problem with the ruling authorities. To say that we will never be accepted, actually goes against what scripture says concerning Jewish acceptance of Yeshua as Messiah in the last days. Never say never, if the Bible says someday.
I agree with you that we can not mire ourselves in whether this or that group accepts or doesn't accept us. We just have to do what we believe is right.

[Tyler]

Dec 3, 2008 10:52:38 GMT -8 Prodigal Girl said:

I agree with everything you say, with one reservation. I believe, personally, that even though it may be said that "we will never be accepted by mainstream Judaism unless we reject Yeshua as Messiah", the reality is, that the rejection occurred then and since then for other reasons, as well. It is those other reasons that need to be scrutinized. If many Jews at the time DID see Yeshua as Messiah, including a great number of priests, according to the book of Acts, then other explanations deserve thought and study, by BOTH sides. There were enough that believed in Yeshua as Messiah that it created a problem with the ruling authorities. To say that we will never be accepted, actually goes against what scripture says concerning Jewish acceptance of Yeshua as Messiah in the last days. Never say never, if the Bible says someday.

Well said, prodigal girl.

I agree with you that we can not mire ourselves in whether this or that group accepts or doesn't accept us.

This is true. We should be blameless in the eyes of the world, causing no offense except that which is inherent in the Good News of Messiah. We should put no stumbling block before the unredeemed other than the Cross of Messiah.

We just have to do what we believe is right.

Forgive me for being cheeky... so what do we do? Gentile Bar Mitzvah or not? Some believe one way and some believe another way? Who's right?

Shouldn't there be some sort of unifying consensus to avoid confusion and mixed messages. Or do we all do what is right in our own eyes?

[Prodigal Girl]

Well, perhaps until such time that there is a consensus, we have no choice but to each make our own decision, unless we want to just blindly go along with what someone else says; but even the decision to do that is an individual decision as to who one decides to blindly follow. We can say "this interpretation is correct, all others are heresy". It takes a certain amount of Chutzpah to stand up and go against the flow for how you believe.
Realize that when you convert, you are no longer a Gentile; Jewish law prohibits even reminding one that he used to be a Gentile. I personally believe that when you become a believer in Yeshua, it is not out of the realm of believability that you can be said to be "converting to Judaism". Hence the immersion which was a conversion to Judaism rite (still is). Whether circumcision is required or even recommended depends on how you interpret scripture related to that. Paul is clear that newly converted Gentiles should not be pressured, and that circumcision should not be used to determine who is "in" and who is "out". However certain groups from that time period, both Romans and Jews, considered circumcision to be THE thing that determines who is "Jewish" and who is not. It was important to know, so for one thing you could kill the right person. Circumcision was indeed forced on some Pagan populations, so they were "converted" when they did not have the least idea of commandments or what it was all about. I believe that the decision to circumcise comes later, at the right time, when the person is ready. But it shoudl not be a requirement for interracting (eating, for instance) with "the group". With the exception of eating the Passover lamb,, which we do not do in it's biblical manner today anyway since we are not living in the Land and under the temple system. We do not sacrifice a lamb today since here is no temple.
What I am saying here, I realize runs counter to both Jewish and Christian contemporary doctrine. However there is much scholarly biblical research from the recent past, since several significant archeological finds such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and reserch related to them, that lends some credence to what I am saying here. It just has not reached the mainstream contemporary population of church or synagogue yet. However it is just beginning to hit. The next 50 years should be very, very interesting in the realm of Jewish-Christian relations. Severe threat from s common enemy tends to bring groups together also.

[Tyler]

I do not believe that Scripture supports the idea that when a Gentile believes in Yeshua they are converting to Judaism or somehow becoming Jewish.

Nor do I think there is much room for interpretation when it comes to Paul apostolic commands regarding circumcision, reversing circumcision, Jewish and Gentile believers.

But perhaps that is for another discussion?

I agree that we should not just blindly follow what other people say.
Gentiles should not blindly jump into any sort of Bar Mitzvah ceremony just because it's what their Messianic Rabbi or denomination tells them to do. They should be perfectly aware of all the issues and well prepared to answer questions; especially to unbelieving Jews.

Prodigal Girl, I am convinced that if the Temple stood today, there would be some Messianic Gentiles (uncircumcised) who would believe it was their absolute right to eat of the Passover Sacrifice.
"After all," they would protest, "Are we not all circumcised in our hearts?" "Aren't we believers in Yeshua and therefore converts to Judaism?"
They would have a lot of chutzpah and would most definitely be going against the flow for how they believe. They may even accuse the Jewish Community that banned them from the Temple of having ridiculous expectations, of never leaving their own little cultural boxes, or of just blindly following what they've been told to do.

The korban pesach is not available to uncircumcised foreigners because Adonai said so. It is a matter of a God-given command - a mitzvah - and a matter of identity among the Jewish people. I didn't make the rules so don't get upset with me.

So imagine this: a 13 year old Jewish boy becomes bar mitzvah and essentially what he declares in a public ceremony is, "I promise before Adonai that should the Temple be rebuilt I will observe the mitzvah of eating the Passover Lamb... and all the other mitzvot."

Can a Gentile promise the same thing? Should a Gentile promise the same thing?

Now just so no one here thinks I'm picking on the Gentiles - eating that passover lamb does not give one right standing with Adonai, it is only partaking of the Lamb of Elohim that is of supreme importance.

Unfortunately I have heard of (so called) Messianic Gentiles who have sacrificed lamb's at Passover. If you were to ask them they would have all the Scriptures to prove it. If you were to explain to them that what they are doing is not right, they would say you were blind. If you were to point of that they are making Messianics look like fruitcakes to everyone - especially unbelieving Jews - they would reply that they don't care about gaining credibilty with Judaism because they know they are right and everyone else's interpretations are wrong.

Now obviously this is an extreme example but I use it to highlight some of the concerns and issues that exist concerning Jewish traditions and the practical observance of those traditions by Messianic Gentiles, i.e. Bar/Bat Mitzvah.

[Mark]

Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people.
(Isaiah 56:3-7 KJV)


Should the Temple be rebuilt in our life-time, it would be appropriate for the gentile worshipper to be circumcised and fully participate in worship of the God of Israel.

There is no caste system: one set of observance and obedience to the gentile and one for the Jew. Paul invites us to fully participate in the Jewishness of our faith, rejecting the identification with our gentile ways and becoming full citizens in the commonwealth of Israel:

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV)

This is not about converting to Judaism through the rite of circumcision not applying for Israeli citizenship. It is certainly not promoting a dichotomy between ethnic Jewish and gentile believers. We are all one in Messiah. As one, we all function and participate in worship together on equal terms. This means that we have no distinctive practices which alienate nor give preference to anyone based upon their ethnic identity. Gentile boys are as equally invited to approach the bema as their Jewish brothers. Gentile men are encouraged to walk in as ardently as their Jewish counterparts.

This discussion may be running parralel with what we have gone through on the subject of circumcision. Reading through this may help:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=observant&action=display&thread=566&page=1

[Tyler]

I agree Mark, there is no caste system. However, having different roles/responsibilities doesn't mean different value or standing.

For ex. let's say 2 brothers work for their father in the same family business but they have entirely different roles and responsibilties. One is not more or less of a son than the other though he may have a different roles. Neither is one more of an employee than the other though he may have a different list of duties.

Isn't this the same with Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free who are in Messiah? We all have different roles yet we are all children and servants.

In the quote from Isaiah that you mentioned, notice that it is Adonai who is saying, "I will give them... I will bring them...." In this passage the stranger and the eunuch are not demanding they're rights as keepers. No their hearts are contrite and broken: "The LORD hath utterly separated me from His people!"

I don't know Mark, I don't read about all the 1st Century Gentile Christians getting circumcised and going to the Temple.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with Gentiles going up to the bema in a Messianic congregation. I don't have any problem with Gentile elders/leaders in a Messianic congregation.
But, by definition of the term, can a Gentile be a Messianic Rabbi? By definition of the term can a Gentile be bar mitzvah? Since these things are so intrinsically related to the definition of Jewish identity and have been exclusively Jewish for centuries this issue is a little more complicated. To me it requires more of an answer than, "Since Gentiles have now inherited the in Messiah, they have now also inherited the modern practices of Traditional Rabbinic Judaism."