Bar/Bat Mitzvah

[Prodigal Girl]

Tyler: What is it that makes a Nation? Is it all having the same ethnicity, the right "blood lines" , the same language? Maybe, according to some nations' ideas. How about the Nation of Israel, the Israel of G-d? What made the very mixed group in the desert of Sinai a Nation before Him? What did it say?
Also, if being circumcised (physically) is what makes one a part of Israel, then by your definition, half of the population (at least) who stood before Moses at Sinai are automatically excluded. Only men can be part of Israel and be "Jewish".

[Tyler]

You are right, Prodigal Girl, in the Exodus along with the children of Israel were a mixed multitude. They all stood at Sinai and heard Adonai speak. They all sinned with the golden calf and drank the bitter water. They all partook of the manna and drank water from the rock. They all wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. They were the ones to whom Adonai ratified His promises to Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov through His Covenant at Sinai. And as a sign and token of this covenant Joshua was commanded to circumcise all the males on the same day that they entered the Promised Land. Yet we read that it is the Tribes of Israel (and not the foreigner) to whom the Land is given as an eternal inheritance.

You see, circumcision is a sign of the covenant (to both the males who bear this sign and the females who witness this sign). Kind of like a wedding ring is a token of one's wedding vows. Just because I wear a gold ring on my ring finger does not mean that I am married (I am single). Neither does it mean that anyone who is circumcised is automatically Jewish. No... like the wedding ring, circumcision is a token of an already existing covenant. And like I mentioned it is a sign to Jewish mothers as well as Jewish fathers, and to Jewish wives as well as Jewish husbands.

Anyway, I don't know why we are on the topic of circumcision and the definition of what a Jew is. These things are pretty straight forward. A Jew is a Jew and a Gentile is a Gentile. A Jew is not a Gentile and a Gentile is not a Jew. The 1st Century believers didn't have any confusion over the definition of Jew and Gentile, so why do we?

For me the question is, what are our respective roles within the Body of Messiah? And how do we include one another without misappropriating each other's traditions and thereby usurping each other's identities?

The Jewish community, through replacement theology, has already had centuries of usurpation at the hands of the Christian Church. Usurping their Scriptures, their chosenness, and even their Messiah. And now today, may Gentiles not be guilty of usurping Jewish traditions.

Do Gentiles really have the right to redefine Jewish tradition and to practice it in whatever way they see fit with complete disregard for the Jewish community which birthed those traditions? In North America, yes. But as a disciple of Yeshua I would say no.

[Prodigal Girl]

As far as who is a "Jew" and who is a "Gentile" is concerned, it was hotly contested then, as it is now in the modern state of Israel. You can see that by studying written documents of the time, with all the discussion of whether or not a Gentile, when he converts, needs to be circumcised, and when (not to mention how). It was not as clear cut as you seem to think. We need to be careful of assuming that the Rabbinical traditions are THE VOICE for Second Temple Judaisms.
You express surprise at why we are on the topic of circumcision and the definition of what a Jew is. It is indeed crucial to have an accurate Biblical understanding of this, as arguably everything else hangs on one's understanding of this. There is, as you can see from this discussion, a basic disagreement within the Messianic (American, at least) on this issue, which has resulted in a significant split. Much like the denominational splits of the churches.
To repeat my question,
"What made the very mixed group in the desert of Sinai a Nation before Him? What did it say"?

[Tyler]

So what are you saying Prodigal Girl?

Are you saying that any Gentile who believes in Messiah, or who follows God automatically becomes Jewish whether they are circumcised or not? Are you saying that 1st Century conversion to Christianity was the same thing as Jewish conversion?

Anyway, you asked again about the "mixed group" in Sinai. First I don't think the group was as mixed as you think - it was predominantly Israelites. The mixed crowd that the speaks about was a smaller group of mixed Gentile nationalities.

So let's look at Exodus 12:

37 The people of Isra'el traveled from Ra'amses to Sukkot, some six hundred thousand men on foot, not counting children.
38 A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds.

Ok... some 600,000 men of "the people of Israel" and a mixed crowd who went with the people of Israel. 2 separate groups are represented here - the Israelites (of whom they counted only the men) and the non-Israelites who went "WITH THEM" (the emphasis is there for a reason).

Back to Exodus:

43 ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, "This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it.
44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it.
45 Neither a traveler nor a hired servant may eat it.
46 It is to be eaten in one house. You are not to take any of the meat outside the house, and you are not to break any of its bones.
47 The whole community of Isra'el is to keep it.
48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it.
49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."

Ok... again we see that Adonai is talking to Moshe, Aharon and the Israelite. Foreigners for the most part are not allowed to partake of the Pesach. There are however 2 exceptions: I First, if an Israelite bought a Gentile slave and circumcised him. Second, if a Gentile was staying WITH THEM, he could be circumcised and then he would be no different than the Israelite; he would be a citizen in the Promised Land. Please notice the distinction Adonai places between a Gentile who is just travelling and a Gentile who is staying. And even then, the Gentile who is staying with the Israelites must be circumcised to become a citizen of the Land.

And this is exactly what happened with the mixed multitude who stayed with the Israelites. If they weren't all circumcised when they left Egypt, they were definitely all circumcised when they crossed the Jordan. It is this people/nation and their physical descendants who are now the Jewish people. And throughout history any Gentiles who stayed with the larger Jewish community and were circumcised became Jewish and thereby belonged to the Jewish Community.

A convert has to belong to the larger Jewish Community in order to be Jewish; they have to be WITH them. For Messianic Gentiles this can't happen. You see, a Gentile may belong to Yeshua but that does not make them Jewish, for many Gentiles belong to Yeshua and many Jews reject Him. Or a Gentile may belong to a Messianic Jewish community but that does not make them Jewish either. Messianic Jews are a very small group who by no means represent the whole Jewish community. In fact most Jews say we aren't Jewish anymore, but we are by virtue of having been born Jewish. But we are considered heretics by our nation and we choose to suffer outside of the camp with Messiah for the sake of Messiah. So Messianic Jews can by no means speak for the whole Jewish Community and by no means do we sit in the seat of Moses. Messianic Jews do not get to decide who is a Jew and who isn't - this issue is an issue of the whole Jewish Community and for the most part Messianic Judaism recognizes this. To do any differently is to say that the applies only to us and not to the unbelieving Jews; that they have been rejected and we have replaced them.

[Prodigal Girl]

What I am saying is this:
1) The immersion (baptism) that was done in the Second Temple period by John the Baptist as well as Yeshua's followers, was indeed a part of the conversion practices of the times, of Gentiles to the Israelite faith. So yes, they were "converting" from their pagan ways of following idols and accompanying practices.
2) Some of those who were immersed also were actually physically on the outside "Jews"; they were already circumcised, so would be considered to be Israelites by themselves and at least some others. Some were descendants of forced conversions. They were "converting"; i.e., turning from their evil ways; repenting.
3) I am not saying that circumcision is never needed, biblically, for those of the above who "convert". It is obvious to me that it is indeed the biblical standard for those mentioned in #1 above.
4) Paul (and other rabbis of the time period) did indeed have an issue with mandatory, pressured into, forced into circumcision, as an example the circumcision forced on the Idumeans, the ancestors of Herod the Great. Yeshua also had an issue with that practice; what you end up with are persons who are outwardly Jewish but, like Herod for an example, are huge sinners. They have little conception of what it means to follow the commandments of G-d.
4) The standard practice in ancient before dispersion times, was circumcision for those not native born LATER after they had an understanding and were ready for it. No pressure. Those native were circumcised at birth as a normal practice. Servants ("slaves") which were normally war booty, would be circumcised. Also women who were captured as war booty could forcibly be "converted" by marriage to an Israeli.
5) "Conversion" as we understand it today, in ancient (again, pre-dispersion times) did not exist. A person simply became part of the Israelite nation by marriage, or by becoming a slave (circumcised, then freed in the 7th year).
5) The rules changed when Israel lost it's land.
6) Circumcision became known as "the" mark of being "Jewish" after the Maccabean period.
7) Circumcision and the lack thereof, like baptism, has been used in political ways, and extremely harmful ways, by various groups. It is imperative to get an accurate, complete understanding of it and how it relates to us today.
I could go on, but will leave more comments until later...

[Tyler]

Forgive me Prodigal Girl - I understand what you wrote in your last post but I'm still not grasping what you are trying to say.

Are you saying that circumcision is not "the" mark of being "Jewish" but is only a Post-Maccabbean tradition?

Are you saying that the Jews that John was immersing weren't Jewish to begin with but that they were becoming Jews by being immersed?

Are you saying that repentance and conversion are the same thing - that Baptism of repentance into Messiah is the same thing as becoming Jewish? That conversion to Messiah IS conversion to Jewishness?

Are you saying that Messianic Gentiles ARE Jews? Or are you saying that they should become Jews, or should be allowed to become Jews?

And what do you mean by "The rules changed when Israel lost it's land"? Which rules? Do you mean the rules of Jewishness? Or the rules of conversion?

Also, I take a bit of an exception to your point #4.
Neither Yeshua nor Paul had any problems with the mandatory forced circumcision of 8 day old Jewish babies. And those Jewish babies that grow up and become vile sinners and blasphemers of Yeshua do not become any less Jewish. And the Jewish people should not ever stop circumcising their sons just because most Jewish people are only "outwardly Jewish".

[Prodigal Girl]

Tyler,
Paul was accused of taking Gentiles into the temple. However what was being referred to, was the interior of the temple, where there were strict rules at the time that said that Gentiles were not allowed to proceed beyond a certain point. Gentiles meaning I assume those who were not circumcised and that were known not to follow the Law of Moses as interpreted by those in charge of the temple at that point in time; the Sadducees who were corrupt and Hellenized. Gentiles, God-fearers were allowed in the temple courts as were women, just not the interior courts, because of the possibility of bringing in ritual uncleaness into the temple. Remember what I said previously also that a great number of persons at that time were no longer Gentiles, as they had converted, though many by force, for example Herod who built the temple as well as a number of pagan temples. He was "converted" because he was circumcised, no matter that he also promoted worship of other gods not to mention committed some horendous crimes.
As far as point #4, I would agree totally that Yeshua etc. had no problem with mandatory forced circumcision of Jewish babies. If He had, then He could not be the Messiah as the Messiah is to teach . However that does not alter the fact that circumcision was done by force on adults at times. What Paul was saying, was that it should NOT be forced on adult Gentiles.
In terms of ethnicity... records on not kept so well any more. Records have been lost. No one is "pure" any more. Many who lived in the Second Temple time period were not "Pure". Solomon's kids were not "pure". Yeshua himself was from a blood line that was not "pure" (Rahab, Ruth, etc.).
The word "Jew" actually originally meant "from the tribe of Judah". No way nowadays to really trace that through genetically. Hence the big controversy in Israel today over what is a Jew.
What I say, is that once you are saved, you are no longer a Gentile. You are in the family of God. You are part of the spiritual nation of Israel. Some even think that genetically those who are saved are actually genetically descended from the House of Israel, which was dispersed over all the world, and lost. That is who Yeshua came to search for, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Understand that the nation of Israel was split, and the Northern part, which was called Israel, included 10 of the tribes which were lost. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin stayed, at least for awhile.
I realize I am rambling, will write more later, to clarify more. It is indeed a very complicated, complex subject, and much misunderstood.

[Mark]

There are a number of folks who come across my path and say that they are convinced of the value and relevance of the Old Testament Scriptures (the ) as applicable to their personal lives… provided they can still look, sound, taste and smell like a gentile. This often comes across as a backwards argument, suggesting that it is important that we retain some practical boundaries between ethnic Jewish believers and gentile ones. is very specific concerning this argument:

And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Leviticus 19:33-34 KJV)

Yet the argument re-surfaces because we are not joining Israel in their land physically by inheriting our eternal salvation (or so we think), forgetting that the entire Bible, both Old Testament and New is a Jewish book, written by Jewish men who maintained throughout their entire lives a undeniable Jewish faith.

And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
(Acts 28:17 KJV)

The Christian faith that we read about in the Bible, the faith of Paul, was not taught to the gentiles in the 1st Baptist Church. He met with and taught them in the Jewish synagogue. In Acts 28:22, when Paul was addressing the Jewish leaders in Rome they referred to his description of faith in Messiah Yeshua as a "sect" of Judaism. It wasn’t until many years after the writers of our New Testament had died, that gentile believers gained a dominance and created a distinction between their faith and Judaism. For all the writers of the Bible which we hold as the inspired, Word of God, Christianity was a camp within the broader definition of Judaism, otherwise the argument in Acts 15 would have been absolutely meaningless: rather than ending in a judgment, they would have simply declared that gentiles do things their way and we’ll do things ours.

The necessity of an Israeli faith is completely missed in our exegesis of modern eschatology. In our minds, Israel is replaced with Christianity or the Church. This is not so if we are to accept the teachings of the Old Testament at all. The New Covenant is given specifically to the house of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-36). Gentiles will come to worship and understand the faith and teaching of the God of Jews in the Jewish context :

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Isaiah 2:2-4 KJV)

To suggest that the Jews can worship Adonai their way and we can worship Him our way is to reject the yet unfulfilled prophecy of Isaiah as void.

Paul suggests to us, in Romans 2, that gentiles walking in obedience to , regardless if they have become proselytized into Judaism formally, have become Jewish in the sight of God: to his mind adopted as sons into the household of God (the household of Israel).

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Romans 2:26-29 KJV)

As such he implores the gentile believers to take on a Jewish identity.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
(2 Thessalonians 2:15 KJV)

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
(1 Corinthians 11:1-2 KJV)

The word translated "traditions" and "ordinances" are the same "paradosis" in both verses, speaking of the Jewish traditionary law or customs. Simply the strength of the word "mimetos" for followers, in 1st Corinthians 11, suggests that the gentile believers her is teaching not simply apply the general ideas of his faith system; but rather use his lifestyle as a specific example as how they ought to behave. We have established in Acts 28 that Paul’s conduct was Jewish in every respect.

[Tyler]

That's an interesting interpretation of Romans 2:26-29.

So are you saying that Gentiles who are born-again become Jews, and do so without the mitzvah of circumcision?

[Mark]

Those who embrace the Jewish Messiah as the Savior of the world, and come into a knowing relationship with the Lord God of Israel are entering into a Jewish faith.

This is not to minimize the relevance of Adonai's covenant relationship with the people of Israel; but equally does not inhibit the worship of those who will come in at whatever level they are willing to make that commitment.

How differently would you interpret Romans 2:26-29?

[Prodigal Girl]

Thank you, Mark, very well put and exactly right. Generally, the way that a person was considered to be part of Israel, is if he obeyed . If you follow in Yeshua's footsteps, you are obeying . So you are part of Israel. You are adopted in. My understanding, is that in the Messianic age, the whole world, all the nations will follow Yeshua as King. All will obey . One thing I think is, if people do the right thing, and follow Yeshua, obeying as He taught it, that this Way will win out over all the others. Truth will win out over falsehood in the end. I believe it is very very important to define Israel biblically, as G-d defines it. However most do not read the whole Bible so are unfamiliar with what it actually says. They just believe what they have been told. To think that one will enter into the Kingdom of G-d because of birth or ethnicity is just not biblical.
To answer the question for you, that I asked you earlier a couple of times Tyler, what makes a nation in this case, is not ethnicity (family) or language. It is agreeing to obey the same constitution. Who did Yeshua say his family was? Not Mary and his other blood relatives. Who did he say it was?

[vickilynn]

Dec 10, 2008 12:39:54 GMT -8 Tyler said:

That's an interesting interpretation of Romans 2:26-29.

So are you saying that Gentiles who are born-again become Jews, and do so without the mitzvah of circumcision?

Shalom Tyler,

I'm asking Mark the same question.

So are you saying that a Gentile (physical non-Jew) who becomes born-again in Yeshua, becomes a physical Jew?

~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

[Mark]

Are you asking if one supernaturally becomes altered genetically to become a descendant of Isaac and Jacob or are you asking if one who accepts the commandments becomes fully accepted into the household of Adonai as His child?

[lawrenceofisrael]

There´s no place in the bible were it says that we become Jews. Remember Jews are just one part of the Israelites. There are twelve tribes. Are the Jews the folk of God? Yes along with the other 11 tribes.
It says in the bible in romans that we become spiritually Israelites meaning descendants of Yakov ( may the Lord remember him).

Peace and blessings be upon you.

[vickilynn]

Dec 21, 2008 23:37:58 GMT -8 Mark said:

Are you asking if one supernaturally becomes altered genetically to become a descendant of Isaac and Jacob or are you asking if one who accepts the commandments becomes fully accepted into the household of Adonai as His child?

Shalom Mark,

I'm actually asking you to explain your words that Gentiles become Jews when they come to Yeshua.

I am asking what do you mean by this?

Are you saying that a physical non-Jew (Gentile) becomes a physical Jew? Or are you saying something different?

Thank you!

~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8