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Post by shammuel on Apr 18, 2009 6:51:21 GMT -8
"You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations on the Sabbath day.”
In Romania(for example)....I can't stay in the house without do some fire...
how do you understand this passage?
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Post by Mark on Apr 18, 2009 7:12:13 GMT -8
The word "kindle" means to start. We have a number of woodstoves in our area, too, so this question comes up often.
In the nomadic Hebraic culture when this command was initiated, heat was usually generated by animals that were allowed into an area of the tent around the doorway while the dwelling for people was on an elevated platform. The command to not kindle a fire would have to do more with light (working into the night) as opopsed to heat. Yet, we don't believe that the commands are limited by culture.
Since the command is not to kindle a fire, we encourage people to place a large, slow burning log on the fire before going to bed and have the material nearby to tend it when arising the next morning. By many rabbinical standards, this fulfills the requirement of not "kindling" a fire on the Sabbath day.
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Post by shammuel on Apr 18, 2009 22:57:47 GMT -8
Thank you very much Mark!
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Post by alon on Mar 22, 2014 22:00:14 GMT -8
In his d'rash this Shabbath, Rabbi Reuel expressed his amazement that he sees some who claim to be  observant Messianics fire up the B-B-Q grill on Shabbath:
Well, he got me ... 
Dangit! ... I'm from the Southwest, and we almost consider our B-B-Q's to be sacred! I justified it by saying it was family or community time, which to me is a large part of the draw to Messianism. But before that, I suppose I am bound to do the will of HaShem.
I already gave up pig-pickens ... this TO thing ain't easy ... 
Dan  C
edit: the "quotes" are not exact; they are just my notes, taken in my own shorthand on the fly as I watched the live stream. Just to be clear ...
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Post by alon on Mar 23, 2014 14:18:17 GMT -8
So I guess the question would be, for those of us whose spouses, families and friends are not on board with Observance- what should we do to make Shabath special?
Meals, lighting candles and family time without having them over to grill hamburgers is not likely. Even watching a live-stream Shabbath service undisturbed almost never happens, and there is realistically only so much really productive Bible study and prayer time in a day, even if that day is Shabbath. Then there is the rub of not shareing the household chores on "Saturday." I can deal with that, but add "ignoring" my wife and ... well, you get the picture. I used to take her out to eat, but Rabbi Reuel also covered the point about not paying anyone else to work for you, thus making them your servant and transgressing the command in Shemoth 20:8-10; "Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God. You have six days to labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Shabbat for ADONAI your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work -not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.”
So I'm just kind of up the proverbial crick. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? 
Commiserations?
Dan  C
edit: then there is the question of what to do when invited over when they are grilling- and I assume the answer is "no can do"- however to isolate myself from family doesn't seem right either. I wasted their growing years at work, almost literally 24/7. To refuse to interact with them and grandkids for "religious reasons" would seem to be counterproductive as I am trying to be the witness now that I was not back then. Difficult decisions ... 
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Post by jimmie on Mar 24, 2014 13:49:07 GMT -8
Ex 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
Food preparation dose not appear to be forbidden work.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 15:36:30 GMT -8
The first verse that you used is referring to the Feast of Unleavened Bread, not the Sabbath.
"Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat--that only may be prepared by you. So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses, since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a stranger or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.'" Exodus 12:15-20
However I do have a question.
Does the Feast of Unleavened Bread fall on a Sabbath and end on the Sabbath? I am still new to this.
Yet the second verse used seem to imply that we are not do any kind of work, not even to kindle a fire to feed ourselves or our families.
"Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day." Exodus 35:2-3
Yet Yeshua and His disciples gathered grain to eat on the Sabbath because they were hungry.
So where does one draw the line?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2014 3:52:18 GMT -8
Does the Feast of Unleavened Bread fall on a Sabbath and end on the Sabbath? ...
Yeshua's talmedim did not cook the grains they plucked, they simply shelled them out in their hands and ate them. You are allowed to eat on Shabbath, just not to cook. The religious leaders were knit-picking and objecting to the act of shelling out the grains, separating them from the chaff as being work. however if you read that entire story, Yeshua shows us that there are exceptions to God's instructions, such as when melech dovid's (King David) men ate the showbread. Another exception was that the "Lord of the Sabbath", God incarnate, was with them.
I suppose I could make exceptions as well, such as going to my son's house for meals they are preparing on Shabbath. However I'll probably be wracked by guilt the whole time, wondering if I'm angering HaShem. But then, my wife assures me that guilt is a very Jewish thing ...
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Mar 25, 2014 6:29:24 GMT -8
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Chapter 23 of Leviticus lists the holy convocations or feast of God, of which the Sabbath is listed first as a feast. If the prohibition of kindling a fire found in Ex. 35:3 means that you can’t have a fire, how could “an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour:” be done? Ex. 35:3 is linked to verse 2 which forbids work on the Sabbath. So you can not do work by or with fire on the feast days which includes the Sabbath. Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath said that good could be done on the Sabbath. Is it good to fellowship/eat with family and friends? Don’t put on the traditions of men in regards to the Sabbath.
Col 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Don’t allow anyone, not even yourself, condemn you of how you respect the Sabbath.
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2014 8:30:16 GMT -8
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Chapter 23 of Leviticus lists the holy convocations or feast of God, of which the Sabbath is listed first as a feast. If the prohibition of kindling a fire found in Ex. 35:3 means that you can’t have a fire, how could “an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour:” be done?
Also, the priests were told to work on Shabbath, but only to do those things commanded in scripture. Offering the sacrifices up was one of those things.
You are falling into the mainstream trap of interpreting the "New Testament" then going back and making the "Old Testament" fit what you think it said. The new is defined and constrained by the old. Had what Yeshua said in any way conflicted with the TNK, it would have been sin and disqualified Him as HaMoshiach.
Our Greek minds want everything laid out in linear, black and white lists of do's and don'ts. Then of course we find all kinds of excuses to break the rules, which is just good mythological practice. To the Hebrew mind there was order based on principles, which means there is often higher mitzvoth, such as doing good deeds.
I used to train EMS personnel for Fire Services, and one of the biggest challenges was to get them to work from principles, not lists. Every emergency is different. There is no way I could give a list for everything they would ever face. But I could teach solid principles, and using these they could make their own "list" as they worked.
And there is my dilemma; God tells us what to do, and it is He who may condemn us for violating those instructions. Yes, it is good to get together and yes I may be a positive influence on my children when we do. Conversely, staying away because of what they'll see as "religion" may be a negative influence. However just going where I please because I "feel" it is right is a deadly trap. Col. 2:16 is not license to do as we please.
The principle is I am not to cook, which is creative work, nor allow my family (if still under my charge) to cook, nor pay someone else to do it for me. So no more Saturday B-B-Q's on my patio. However, if my son, who is grown and has his own family now, and who I wish to witness to instead of alienating, is having a B-B-Q and invites me over ...
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Mar 25, 2014 13:03:56 GMT -8
[You can have a fire, for example for heat, you just can't kindle a fire. If you may need fire for heat you have to stoke it then bank it on the 6th day (Friday) before sundown. And of course gather and stack all your firewood then too. I have used wood heat my entire life and have never been able to get a fire to put out sufficient heat for a 24 hour period. Not even with my latest heater that I can put three pieces of wood that are 13 inches in diameter and 20 inches long and a few smaller pieces as well. After 24 hour, only a few coals are left. What am I doing wrong? 1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Use your liberty(legitimate freedom) as a servant of God. If you can use a fire to warm yourself, why not use it to cook food that will warm you? We have one reference to not kindling a fire on the Sabbath and it is linked to a prohibition to do no work on the Sabbath. If not kindling a fire on the Sabbath means no cooking, it also means no starting of engines for transportation, no lighting of any type of lights, no gas pilot lights. If it is wrong for you to do it, it is wrong for you to benefit from someone else doing it. Stay away from your son's BBQ on the Sabbath. You can't have one law for yourself and another for him. |
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2014 17:21:42 GMT -8
[You can have a fire, for example for heat, you just can't kindle a fire. If you may need fire for heat you have to stoke it then bank it on the 6th day (Friday) before sundown. And of course gather and stack all your firewood then too. I have used wood heat my entire life and have never been able to get a fire to put out sufficient heat for a 24 hour period. Not even with my latest heater that I can put three pieces of wood that are 13 inches in diameter and 20 inches long and a few smaller pieces as well. After 24 hour, only a few coals are left. What am I doing wrong?
And you don't think the Hebrews had the same freedoms?
Now you are taking it to ridiculous extremes, just as the rabbis did, and the remnant of the Pharisees who preceded them and who did take the liberties of the Hebrews away with their rulings. This is a tactic often used by Christians to defame Messianics, "You have to follow all the mitzvoth; have to do everything the rabbis say; have to convert to Judaism; have to (pick your extreme and insert it here)."
A pilot is a constant flame, so when the burner lights because the thermostat sends a signal to give it gas, you have not "created" a flame. Modern gas engines contain a series of controlled explosions, so there is no open flame. The spark created by turning on a switch does not start a flame.
The point about not having one law for myself and one for my son is a valid point, if separated from the other rhetoric. Would you care to develop that point in the context of our discussion about there being higher mitzvoth?
Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2014 18:06:18 GMT -8
Does the Feast of Unleavened Bread fall on a Sabbath and end on the Sabbath? I am still new to this.
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 3:51:56 GMT -8
No worries Alon. Thank you.
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Post by jimmie on Mar 26, 2014 7:08:28 GMT -8
alon,
I'm thankful that adding wood to a fire is not breaking a commandment. I don't think eating and food prep is either.
Our goal is to be a repairer of the breach.
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
In order to be a repairer we must turn our foot from the Sabbath, i.e. quit trodding it under foot. Quit doing our pleasure on the Sabbath. Amos provides a good example of how the Sabbath is trodden under our foot doing our pleasure.
Amos 8:4 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
Now back to repairing the breach: how shall we call the Sabbath a delight, if it is a burden? If Kindle no fire on the sabbath is taken as a stand alone statement then indeed, then indeed it is a burden. It doesn’t matter how much control a flame has it is still a fire. A fire is an flow of electrons between an oxidizer and reduction material. Electricity is a flow of electrons thus a fire. Avoidance of fire/electricity on the sabbath would be a burden. If kindle no fire is taking in the context of no work on the Sabbath, then it is a delight. Don’t do any work (see Amos above) with fire or anything else.
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- there are 70 faces to 
C
