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Post by alon on Mar 26, 2014 22:03:28 GMT -8
jimmie, I talked to the rabbi tonight about this. He doesn't quite agree with your reasoning, he agrees completely with Rabbi Reuel (or at least what I told him of the d'rash and of your comments). He does however agree that I should go if invited to dinner (or a B-B-Q) given by my son. The reason- it is a higher mitzvoth to witness to my family. He did stress that this is not to be a permanent thing, and that I need to suggest to him that we have these things on Sunday. And I should when asked tell him why.
This is not going to set well with my wife, but ... 
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Mar 27, 2014 5:08:48 GMT -8
There you have it.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace!
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Post by Questor on Mar 29, 2014 3:08:26 GMT -8
In his d'rash this Shabbath, Rabbi Reuel expressed his amazement that he sees some who claim to be  observant Messianics fire up the B-B-Q grill on Shabbath: Well, he got me ...  Dangit! ... I'm from the Southwest, and we almost consider our B-B-Q's to be sacred! I justified it by saying it was family or community time, which to me is a large part of the draw to Messianism. But before that, I suppose I am bound to do the will of HaShem. I already gave up pig-pickens ... this TO thing ain't easy ...  Dan  C edit: the "quotes" are not exact; they are just my notes, taken in my own shorthand on the fly as I watched the live stream. Just to be clear ...  ! You can however leave the BBQ on from before Friday sunset...it's wasteful, but legal. |
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Post by alon on Apr 2, 2014 16:12:03 GMT -8
So ! You can however leave the BBQ on from before Friday sunset...it's wasteful, but legal
('Course, that could be because we were poor Southern Baptists too ... dad was a lay minister in the sense he had to work, plus do all the duties of a preacher. Waste like that would've got us a beatin', a lecture, and worse yet another sermon! )
Besides, cooking is creative work. Meals are supposed to be prepared the day before. I still havn't figured out how I'm going to address that on with th' wife.
Dan C
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 3, 2014 6:08:35 GMT -8
So ! You can however leave the BBQ on from before Friday sunset...it's wasteful, but legal LOL, nah, I still got too much Southern Baptist in me t' do that! Waste was considered the worst kind of sin! ('Course, that could be because we were poor Southern Baptists too ... dad was a lay minister in the sense he had to work, plus do all the duties of a preacher. Waste like that would've got us a beatin', a lecture, and worse yet another sermon! ) Besides, cooking is creative work. Meals are supposed to be prepared the day before. I still havn't figured out how I'm going to address that on with th' wife. Dan C Shalom! It is true that is why we have our prep day to get everything ready. Exodus 16:23 23 He told them, “This is what Adonai has said: ‘Tomorrow is a holy Shabbat for Adonai. Bake what you want to bake; boil what you want to boil; and whatever is left over, set aside and keep for the morning.’” So technically speaking all of that is meant to be done the day before like alon has pointed out. We don't cook anything in my home on Shabbat. You can however keep food warm throughout the Shabbat just no cooking or boiling anything. Pray it goes well with you and your wife. Blessings! Yedidyah |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 7:39:09 GMT -8
In his d'rash this Shabbath, Rabbi Reuel expressed his amazement that he sees some who claim to be observant Messianics fire up the B-B-Q grill on Shabbath: Well, he got me ... Dangit! ... I'm from the Southwest, and we almost consider our B-B-Q's to be sacred! I justified it by saying it was family or community time, which to me is a large part of the draw to Messianism. But before that, I suppose I am bound to do the will of HaShem. I already gave up pig-pickens ... this TO thing ain't easy ... Dan C edit: the "quotes" are not exact; they are just my notes, taken in my own shorthand on the fly as I watched the live stream. Just to be clear ... Unlawful though, I mean how long is your beard? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 9:08:49 GMT -8
alon, I'm thankful that adding wood to a fire is not breaking a commandment. I don't think eating and food prep is either. Our goal is to be a repairer of the breach. Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: In order to be a repairer we must turn our foot from the Sabbath, i.e. quit trodding it under foot. Quit doing our pleasure on the Sabbath. Amos provides a good example of how the Sabbath is trodden under our foot doing our pleasure. Amos 8:4 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, 5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit? Now back to repairing the breach: how shall we call the Sabbath a delight, if it is a burden? If Kindle no fire on the sabbath is taken as a stand alone statement then indeed, then indeed it is a burden. It doesn’t matter how much control a flame has it is still a fire. A fire is an flow of electrons between an oxidizer and reduction material. Electricity is a flow of electrons thus a fire. Avoidance of fire/electricity on the sabbath would be a burden. If kindle no fire is taking in the context of no work on the Sabbath, then it is a delight. Don’t do any work (see Amos above) with fire or anything else. So what are you saying? that you won't use fire during Shabbath? What of the lad in Romania? Do you judge him for wanting to keep his fire going as the sun sets in winter? Seethe and bake your food before the sun goes down, i think is the message. And do no servile work after the sun has set, until the sun sets once again. Food prep using fire during Shabbath is not allowed. By the way thanks for the info on the chloramine in the water. It seems one of the local water companies is washing their pipes with chloramine. I researched the osmosis filters, can you recommend a value option? (a lot of them were pricey). |
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Post by jimmie on Jul 2, 2014 11:00:38 GMT -8
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Who made me judge over the lad in Romania.
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Post by alon on Jul 2, 2014 12:08:46 GMT -8
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Who made me judge over the lad in Romania.
1 Cor 5:12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn't it those who are part of the community that you should be judging? 13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.
The verse you quoted should, as always, be viewed in context:
Mat 7:1 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. 2 For the way you judge others is how you will be judged -- the measure with which you measure out will be used to measure to you.
What Rav Sha'ul is saying is "do not judge falsely." However, as 1 Cor above points out, we ARE to judge fellow believers. If this were not the case, how would you know who to listen to? Who to fellowship with? Who to expel from amongst your assembly so as not to allow heresies into your doctrine? How would we be able to tell the lad in Romania what advice we think good, and who he should not listen to?
If we had not judged mainC, we would not be here.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 2, 2014 13:08:05 GMT -8
Alon, these may better express the point I was trying to make to bongo.
Luke 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
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Post by jimmie on Jul 3, 2014 5:41:38 GMT -8
If I have said food prep is okay, how is it you think I have said not to do anything with fire on the sabbath?
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Post by jimmie on Jul 3, 2014 9:34:05 GMT -8
All of my meals have order(seder). For someone who doesn't like exceptions/contradictions why are you allowing one for Passover. If I can cook a Passover lamb on the sabbath, then why not other meals? If you wish to move, then do so. To me the injunction of no fire has to do with work not comfort.
Ex. 35: 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
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alex
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Post by alex on Jul 3, 2014 11:47:55 GMT -8
All of my meals have order(seder). For someone who doesn't like exceptions/contradictions why are you allowing one for Passover. If I can cook a Passover lamb on the sabbath, then why not other meals? If you wish to move, then do so. To me the injunction of no fire has to do with work not comfort. Ex. 35: 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
Indeed. The primary injunction is against work, and kindling a fire was given as an example of work. Starting a fire in those days was a arduous task...creating fire by producing friction with wood literally makes you sweat. As for cooking or serving...ha! I can just see the men in ancient days actually going to get their own food rather than being served by their wives and daughters...Not! Even now in Orthodox houses the food is served to the table by the women of the household, and service is supposed to be under a definition of work, yet somehow that doesn't count. And the women put the food away into the refrigerator after the meal is over, and clean up the dining room, and the kitchen as well. All of that is servile work.
When you live in a tent, the fire is outside, and over that fire usually sits a skin hanging from a brace over the fire, with a constantly simmering soup or stew, that water is added to from time to time, as one adds veggies and grains as you have handy. This is not creative work...it's keeping the food hot, and bacteria free.
Not working is about labor...not living. Sure, when you had to go out and gather the manna everyday, and then grid, and bake it...that is work. So you bake your bread ahead of time. And you would start the stew, because porridge is about all there is for a poor nomad, with the veggies and meat added on a Sabbath BECAUSE the day is special. So you would kill, and clean the chicken before Erev Shabbat, and cut it up...but it would remain over the existing fire, simmering and getting more flavorful as time passed.
God was trying to give everyone rest on the Sabbath from work, and food prep is work...it takes time and effort, but the actual placement of food over an existant fire, and then of serving it to the family is not to be considered as work, or the Sabbath would also be a day of fasting. And cleaning up afterward is a preservation of the remaining food, to prevent vermin and insects from contaminating it and using it up...something that should be done to preserve the health of the family, and thus permitted on a Sabbath. People really have to put some flesh on the bones of the commandments...and keeping the Sabbath is to refrain from working, including gathering wood for the fire, yet one can add wood to the fire...you just don't go out and gather it at well. And just how much work is involved in going to a neighbor to get already kindled fire to put into your suddenly cold fire?
People have to get a little more reality based on just what work is!
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Post by alon on Jul 3, 2014 12:34:50 GMT -8
As for cooking or serving...ha! I can just see the men in ancient days actually going to get their own food rather than being served by their wives and daughters...Not! Even now in Orthodox houses the food is served to the table by the women of the household, and service is supposed to be under a definition of work, yet somehow that doesn't count. And the women put the food away into the refrigerator after the meal is over, and clean up the dining room, and the kitchen as well. All of that is servile work.
 I know- I know ... no chauvinist pigs on a kosher forum! 
(And for the record, I try to get all my household service- I mean chores- tasks- ... oh, drat! My secret is out -- so ok, I do help out around the house ... however I've been banished from the kitchen except to clean up.)
That is very insightful. Thanks!
Dan
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Post by jimmie on Jul 3, 2014 13:04:46 GMT -8
Alex, Thanks for your kind and well thought out remarks. I look forward to more input from you. [quote author=" alex" source="/post/17059/thread" timestamp="1404416875[/p] Indeed. As for cooking or serving...ha! I can just see the men in ancient days actually going to get their own food rather than being served by their wives and daughters...Not! [/quote] Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. Gen 25:29 And Jacob sod pottage: Judges 13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.I don't think food preparation was an exclusive female duty in bible days. |
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! You can however leave the BBQ on from before Friday sunset...it's wasteful, but legal.
I know- I know ... no chauvinist pigs on a kosher forum! 
