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Post by Mark on Aug 12, 2006 4:06:04 GMT -8
Curt: Scripture doesn’t support the opinion that the Ceremonial Laws and ordinances found in Moses Law wasn’t the subject matter for what was done away with. What was specifically mentioned was the handwriting of ordinances and we’ve already established Moses hand wrote the ordinances in a book.(one of the distinguishing marks)
Colossians 2:14
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Excuse me, Curt, I thought I was clear in stating that Colossians 2:14 was NOT the writings of Moses in my previous post. The Greek word used for "ordinances" is dogma which is never used in reference to  in either the New Testament nor the Septuigent. We HAVE established that all of originated from God (Deut. 5:28-31); yet the dogmas spoken of in Colossians are identified as "the commands and doctrines of men" (Colossians 2:22). Please note: "Men" not "man". Your position is long standing: it goes back to Pltomey early in the second Century. However, if it were true it would invalidate Yeshua as the Messiah based upon Isaiah 8:20: "To the Law and to the testimonies. If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them." To say that "good Law" or God's enduring Law is all that remains, places us in the position of picking and defining that Law for ourselves. What does it mean to have no other gods before Adonai? Do we get to establish for ourselves jots and tittles of how the Ten Commandments are practically applied as sin or righteousness? You may argue that this is what Judaism has done; but this may revert to Paul's definition of doctrines and commandments of men: Talmud, not . If we may not define sin and righteousness outside of the scope of the Ten Commandments, then Paul takes some pretty inapproriate liberties in Galatians 5:19-21. |
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Post by Golfnerd on Aug 12, 2006 6:21:02 GMT -8
Sorry Curt, but God is the author of ALL the laws given to Moses. Show me where is says "Thus says Moses" or anything of that sort to give the idea that Moses was doing ANYTHING else other than being a scribe to what God told him.
You can't slice and dice Scripture up like that.
And you have yet to respond to my prior post.
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inawe
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Post by inawe on Aug 12, 2006 7:19:30 GMT -8
I've gotta sign in on this. I've been watching this thread unfold, and there seems to be an impasse. My own feelings? The Bible is a "whole" book. Not a book full of "holes". We need to learn to agree to disagree, as many seem to be taking this to extremes. But, hey...I'm human, and as such, prone to error in my thoughts. Curt...why must you press this? Is it more important than the points of salvation we all agree on? I have seen no one here say that following in and of itself will "save" you. Yes, this is an important subject, reguardless of which side you feel be correct...I can only assume that that's the reason this onghoing debate has been allowed to continue, as it seems that your mind is made up with no chance of looking at things from a different stance. Have you read the oft mentioned article at yashanet.com titled,"Not Subject To The Law Of God"? Go dig it up there (not hard to find) and give it a read, if you will. G-d bless you and yours still, inawe |
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Post by Blake on Aug 12, 2006 9:16:53 GMT -8
The thing is, if you follow a Messiah that promotes the negation of the you are not following Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef ben Dawid the true Mashiakh. The Tanakh is clear, a "mashiakh" who says that the is not to be followed is not the Mashiakh at all. The antinomian idol J-sus Ch-ist (may his name be blotted out) is NOT HaMashiakh. Did not the great Ribi Yehoshua HaMashiakh say whoever breaks the least of the mitzwah and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven? He was not referring to the aseret HaDibirot and he Jewish audience he was addressing would've understood this. If he was he would've come and directly stated so. |
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 12, 2006 14:46:08 GMT -8
59 times, no less, says that a given commandment is l'olam (lit: to eternity). In Jeremiah 31 Father claims ownership of the , calling it "torahtiy," that is, "my ." 105 times the records the phrase, "...yidaber YHWH el-mosheh..." that is, "YHWH spoke to Moses..." 75 times in appears the phrase, "tzavah YHWH" or "YHWH commanded." I think we can be fairly certain of whose commandments these are. And I reitterate, if I may, that the Aramaic Peshitta/Peshitto makes it quite clear what Yeshua is referring to in this passage, in that it uses the word " ." In conclusion, I will quote two passages that make quite plain Father's will regarding the the Law of Moses. "Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom [to] the right hand or [to] the left; That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear [by them], neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them: But cleave unto the LORD your God, as ye have done unto this day." Joshua 23:6-8 (KJV) Joshua equated cleaving to YHWH with keeping the Law of Moses. "And he said to them, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moshe. Therefore everything that he says to you that you should keep and do. But not according to their deeds, for they talk, but do not.'" Mattai 23:2-3 (from the Peshitta, based on Paul D. Younan's interlinear translation) Shalom, David |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 13, 2006 15:00:44 GMT -8
I haven't really weighed in on this because I think it has been well handled. I would however, like to state that I believe it is pretty clear that, A: There is no such thing as G-d's Law and Moshe's Law, they are one and the same B: In no way, shape, or form was the abolished by Yeshua's life or death Shavua Tov All! Natanel |
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Post by Rick on Aug 14, 2006 15:45:03 GMT -8
Short, accurate and to the point Natanel ben-Avigdor. Amein
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Post by Golfnerd on Aug 15, 2006 5:57:50 GMT -8
Curt...have you had a chance to look at my last two posts? Responding?
Blessings!!
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Aug 15, 2006 12:39:42 GMT -8
I apologize for not responding to everyone's reply sooner. I count I'm about 17 replys behind and counting. Nachson I'm not dodging your reply concerning is an aramic word. Golfnerd I also intend to respond to all your replys. Inawe I will explain soon why I'm pressing this issue. I will use Bible verses to explain. I believe those who reject truth are placing there eternal life at risk. I've replied to all writings in the order they came. I'm just behind and the next few weeks will have even less computer time available. God has given you all freedom of choice and everyone will make a choice even if they think they have made no choice. If I've disagreed with anyone's beliefs it's out of passion for the truth and compassion for you.  |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 15, 2006 20:35:27 GMT -8
Shalom chaverim, I know you haven't seen me respond in quite some time. But, I thank all of our wonderful moderators whom have been doing a fantastic job  ... Especially on this thread. Also, all of the members here have obviously done their study to the glory of Adonai. Curt, I understand that you are sincere about your belief that the words given to Moshe by YHVH are of no authority in a believer's life and that you sincerely believe that not all scripture [from Beresheet (Gen.) to Revelation] should guide a follower of Yeshua in a holy life (which is clearly refuted in 2Timothy3:16). But, your words and thoughts have been refuted by more than two or three able witnesses as their studies have gone a little more in-depth than that of your own. Unfortunately, you have also violated the very clear forum rules warning members not to attack the of our Heavenly Father and not to attempt to lead others away from a observant life. I don't think anyone here including yourself can deny that you have done this. Therefore, because of this and my opinion that you need to take a break to pray about and re-read everything that has been written in this thread, your account will be disabled for 30 days. Note to future posters. Please keep this thread on subject. If not, your posts will be removed. Also, please do not post excessively long posts...or they will also be removed. New posters should read the forum rules carefully as this is a place to learn and if your only goal is to lead others out of a observant Messianic life, than your stay will be very short on this forum. Violators will have little or no warning. Shalom aleychem b'shem Yeshua HaMashiach, Reuel |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Sept 20, 2006 16:50:21 GMT -8
First let me say I respect everyone on this web site. I respect that you started this web site from nothing and made it a success. As far as I’m concerned this is your web site and you don’t need to give me reason for disabling my account. But since you did I feel I have a right to defend against your accusations. Curt: I’m glad you recognize my sincerity. Curt: That is not my position. Those are your conclusions about my position. I believe all scripture is the inspired word of God as written in II Timothy 3:16. I used this very same scripture in this thread on page 2 Reply #15 on Aug. 5, 2005. I believe Moses Law was inspired by God. I also believe Paul’s writings which talk about Moses Law is also the inspired word of God. Curt: I don’t believe I’ve attacked the . My writings have been backed up with Biblical documentation. If I have attacked the then Paul and God Himself has attacked the through the inspired scripture. That is impossible! What scripture does is explain the reason and purpose of Moses Law. Curt: You misunderstand my motives for discussing this specific subject. I wasn’t trying to lead people away from a observant life. Let me first give you some history concerning myself and my four different stands on this very issue. First Position: As a member of a mainline Protestant denomination I believed we didn’t have to keep any law (Ten Commandment or Moses Law) because we were saved by grace. Second Position: After more Bible study I came to believe we should keep the ceremonial feasts because of the word “forever”. Third position: After more Bible study (reading Paul’s writings) I became confused and just didn’t know. Fourth Position: After more Bible Study I’ve come to my present position that we are required to keep the Ten Commandments, laws that existed before Moses Law (Tithing laws, Food laws) and that Moses ceremonial laws, sacrificial laws were abolished. My motive was to test my belief against people who were strongly convicted in opposition so as to field the best objections to my belief. I wanted to be severely tested so as to see if my belief would stand the test. Why? Because I believe truth in doctrine is of a matter of eternal life and without it we perish and are condemned. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness 2 Thessalonians 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation sanctification by the Spirit and , Curt: Secondly, I didn’t feel people on your site would be led away because I felt their convictions were stronger than mine. I felt their mind might be closed. My mind is open to change if Biblical evidence can be presented. My personal history demonstrates I will change a belief if further Biblical evidence warrants it. I was pursuing the truth because I feel salvation includes belief in the truth. . Curt: I just did! Curt: I did reread the thread from the beginning to end. I did say a prayer concerning the writings. . Curt: Truth isn’t a popularity contest. I answered objections through Reply #48, August 8, 2006. My evaluation is that because I was able to answer those objections with Biblical evidence that my conviction has been strengthened rather than diminished. Everything past reply # 48 may well diminish my conviction as you say. I have an open mind because I’m searching for the truth. But since I wasn’t allowed to respond to the remaining objections, it’s a hollow victory that you claim. Which brings me to this point, I feel you don’t want me to write on this subject and if that is the case I won’t. I would have stopped anytime if you had said something. If you would allow me to continue to write on this subject I would still pursue the truth in the same manner as I did before. It is your right as owner of this web site to set any restrictions you wish but you must know if you set rules to protect certain doctrines that you will never learn anything new and won’t even be able to strengthen your conviction because you never get tested. |
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Post by Golfnerd on Sept 21, 2006 4:18:57 GMT -8
Shalom Curt and welcome back. The has always been here. (Gen 26:5 RNKJV) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham kept what? YHWH's commandments, statutes and laws( ) some 400 years BEFORE Mt Sinai. What about Noah? He clearly knew clean from unclean and knew the procedure for offering sacrifices... (Gen 8:20 RNKJV) And Noah builded an altar unto YHVH; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.Let's go back even further....let's look at Cain and Abel... (Gen 4:3 RNKJV) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto YHVH.
(Gen 4:4 RNKJV) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And YHVH had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
(Gen 4:5 RNKJV) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
(Gen 4:6 RNKJV) And YHVH said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
(Gen 4:7 RNKJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.So...they knew about sacrifices and offerings to YHWH and about clean and unclean. That's a large portion of the . So, I beleive the has always been here. (Joh 1:1 RNKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YHVH, and the Word was YHVH.
(Joh 1:2 RNKJV) The same was in the beginning with YHVH. Look at Gen 1:1 in the Hebrew. The fourth word is the aleph-tav - the First and Last letter of the Hebrew alphabet; the Beginning and the End....the Alpha and Omega. Sitting there right next to YHWH at the Creation. One thing that I would suggest to eliminate your confusion with Paul's writings...they HAVE to agree with other Scripture. Pauls' writings CANNOT contradict ANY other part of Scripture. If they appear to do so, then your interpretation is at fault. Shalom, Mark |
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Post by Golfnerd on Dec 18, 2006 7:04:19 GMT -8
What happened to Curt?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 2, 2007 19:56:06 GMT -8
His account is not disabled. Perhaps he decided to respect the forum rules regarding His anti- rhetoric. Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 11, 2007 14:32:48 GMT -8
Jesus is saying he didn't come to detroy the Moral law BUT to fulfill.
I believe what He's saying is I came to establish, illustrate, and explain its highest meaning, both by my life and doctrine.
Wasn't the Moral Law nailed to the cross as well?
Marc
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in either the New Testament nor the Septuigent. We HAVE established that all of 
... Especially on this thread. Also, all of the members here have obviously done their study to the glory of Adonai. 
