Curt
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Post by Curt on Aug 3, 2006 17:18:17 GMT -8
Curt: I think the problem is what I said earlier, the word “  ” is not the appropriate word.. I’ve never said God changed everything in the . The contains both the “Ten Commandments” and “Moses Law” among other things. What I said was Matthew 5 is talking about the “Ten Commandments’ when it says not one jot or tittle will be removed. I also said Moses Law has been annulled. Moses Law is a part of the “ ” as well as the “Ten Commandments” a part of the . To•rah also to•rah P Pronunciation Key (tôr , t r , toir , tô-rä ) n. Judaism 1. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. See table at Bible. 2. A scroll of parchment containing the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures, used in a synagogue during services. 3. The entire body of religious law and learning including both sacred literature and oral tradition. Curt: If you reread my reply # 40 Aug.1 I’ve already covered this. What’s perfect is God and His Ten Commandment Law. It’s the law of the LORD that is perfect not Moses Law. God has the character of the “Ten Commandment Law that is why both are perfect. Moses Law is a part of the and is weak and unprofitable. The following is my quote from that writing. Quote: Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Psalm 19: 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; Curt: Moses Law isn’t perfect. It is weak and unprofitable . Hebrews 7: Hebrews 7:18-19 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God Curt: Actually I have not heard it put that way before. Most main line Christian denominations claim all the law has been nailed to the cross not just the handwriting of requirements. What your’e saying is that Jesus is the and that would be an impossibility since the Book of the Law found in the is not perfect. It is weak and unprofitable and Jesus was perfect. The following verse can also be found in my previous reply # 40 August 1st. writing and covers this. Hebrews 7: Hebrews 7:18-19 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God Curt: The law that is perfect as Jesus was is the “Ten Commandment Law”. Curt: Can’t agree with that! First let me rewrite the verse in question. Colossians 2:14 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Curt: The ordinances are found in the Moses Law. Now we see why the word “handwriting” is so important because Mose wrote it by hand in a book and God wrote the “Ten Commandments with His finger on tablets of stone. This was also covered in my Reply 40 August 1 writing. I’ll give you the verses again. Curt: 2. Written by Moses Exodus 24:4 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel Curt: Written in a book Exodus 24: 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Exodus 24:7 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.” 2. Was written by God Exodus 31:18 Exodus 31:18 18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony , tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 32:16 16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets Curt: Not only are the “requirements” a handwriting of ordinances but even more specific information is given which is that these” requirements” were “a witness against us”. Deuteronomy 31:26 tells us which ordinances were “against us”. It’s those found in the Book of the Covenant. Deuteronomy 31:26 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Curt: I don’t have God changing. What God did was end Moses Law. Moses Law is weak and unprofitable. God is not weak and unprofitable. Hebrews 7:18 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness. 
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Post by Mark on Aug 4, 2006 5:55:37 GMT -8
Curt, what I'm suggesting with Deuteronomy 4:2 is that either Moses is only giving the Law as it was given to Him by God or he is contradicting himself. Your position appears to be that Moses added to the Law of God; yet in Deuteronomy 4:2 Moses declares that no one can do that. Either all of the Pentateuch is God's Law or Moses, himself, violated this command. I'd like to suggest that the 10 Commandments (literally, the Ten Words, not commandments but utterances of God) are a summation of the entire : literally, subheadings underwhich each of the mitzvot contained in fit. The commandments regarding witchcraft, idolatry and sacrificning tell us how we are to no other gods before Him, and so on. Remember that Moses was up in the mountain with God for 40 days. I don't think it was a vacation, nor that God talks tediously slow; but God had a lot of information to impart to His servant Moses. I'd like to invite you to spend some time with the threads on Paul's writings, particularly those addressing questions on Galatians. I think the antinomian interpretation of Paul's writings is pretty well covered in those threads. If they don't address your issue with Paul and clearly, I'd certainly like for them to be more complete. |
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Curt
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Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Aug 7, 2006 18:47:34 GMT -8
Curt: It seems to me the main subject is whether justification is by faith or justification is by works. Paul is saying O foolish Galatians you had Jesus clearly shown to you as crucified. The truth is you received the Spirit by faith not by works. So why are you trying to go back to the works of the law. The works of the law is linked to a “curse” and the curse of the law is linked to Moses Law (the Book of the Law). The Galatians a want to keep Moses Law. Paul asks them why and calls them foolish. Galatians 3:2 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Galatians 3:10 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Curt: Jesus by His crucifixion has bought us back from the “curse of the law.”
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”
Curt: Before faith came Moses Law guarded us.
Galatians 3:23
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Curt: The purpose of Moses Law was to instruct us and bring us to Christ so we could be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith
Curt: But after we have received faith we no longer need Moses Law.
Galatians 3:25
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Curt: Paul is saying as early as Galatians 3:3 you cannot be made perfect (righteousness) through Moses Law.
Galatians 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Curt: That’s because it is dismissing Moses Law Galatians 3 is consistent from beginning to the end.
Curt: The Bible verse says if you rely on Moses Law you are under a curse. But Galatians 3:13 tells us Jesus by crucifixion has bought us back from that curse by becoming that curse through crucifixion.
Curt: Galatians 3:13
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
Curt: God did give the people who had come out of Egypt the Ten Commandments and Moses Law during the same time period at Mt. Sinai. But God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) existed even before He wrote it on stone at Mt. Sinai. Abraham kept God’s commandments.
Genesis 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Curt: The Israelites knew of God’s commandments(Ten Commandments) even before God wrote them on tablets of stone with His finger on Mt Sinai. They knew of them when they gathered manna in the wilderness.
Exodus 16:4
4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not
Exodus 16:22-23 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’
Exodus 16:27-28
27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?
Curt: Lucifer himself broke at least three commandments. 1.) The first commandment because he wanted to be like God 2.) The ninth commandment, because he lied to the angels. 3.) The tenth commandment because he coveted God’s throne.
Curt: I don’t recall giving that Bible verse. Where is it located? The verses you quoted don’t say anything about the Law of Moses. It talks about righteousness gotten thru faith.
Romans 4:3
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Curt: But later on in Romans 4 it says Abraham received righteousness by faith without keeping Moses Law.
Romans 4:9-11
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
Curt: I don’t believe I quoted Galatians 3:15-16,18. I quoted Galatians 3:17 and Galatians 3:19. Not only was Moses Law not a ticket into heaven it was annulled after Jesus’s crucifixion.
Curt: Again I don’t believe I quoted Galatians 4:9-10. Sabbaths aren’t even mentioned in these two verses. The festivals have been observed since the time of Moses Paul is attacking the feast days of Moses Law. If you read the rest of the chapter you will see Paul is comparing the Ten Commandment Covenant with a “freewoman” and the Covenant of the Book of Law (Moses Law) with a “bondwoman”. Paul says we are children of the “freewoman” not the “bondwoman” and to cast out the “bondwoman”(Moses Law).
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[c] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
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Post by Rick on Aug 7, 2006 20:09:17 GMT -8
Returning to the original question of this thread...It is my opinion that what Yeshua had a problem with, and "did away with", was not the " " or "Ceremonial Law". What was at issue and is alluded to in the "New Covenant" writings is the Rabbinical enactments, regulations, etc. that were not expressly given in Scripture. Things like hand washing, etc. or any of a number of things debated in the oral "commentarys". Yeshua is saying that the Law will be in force perpetually, and that everyone should keep it. The Law is an eternal covenant that can never end. Just refer to passages like Isaiah 2:3, Zechariah 14:16 and Ezekiel 43:18 which indicate that even in the Messianic Age the will be the Law of the Land, and the Gentile nations will keep the Festivals at a Temple that will conduct animal sacrifice. Anyone who teaches that some point of Mosaic Law need not be obeyed is “least” compared to a someone who teaches they all should be kept, who would be “great”; Yeshua is clarifying that He would never overturn any point of the Law given to Moshe. "Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were commandments.' "You depart from YHWH's commandments and hold onto human tradition."[Mar 7:7-8] |
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Post by Mark on Aug 8, 2006 3:57:06 GMT -8
Curt, To distinguish between "the Law of Moses" and "the Law of God" is to undermine Moses' position as a servant of God. Moses gave nothing except the clear instruction which he received from God. (Deuteronomy 5:24-31). You're correct that Galatians is about salvation being by faith and not by works. Yet, the assumption that seems at the root of your conclusion is that those under the Law of Moses were saved by works. Hebrews 4:2 and Hebrews 11 discredits that assumption. Those who lived in obedience to were saved by grace through faith, the same as we are. In Matthew 5-7, Yeshua wasn't teaching against the Law of Moses. Had He been, He certainly wouldn't have lived very long; yet the people did not take stones to stone Him. This is because His teaching was within the realm of Hillelic Judaism. He was teaching what is known as the "One Law" principle- that all of the mitzvot is contained in this one word: to love your neighbor as yourself. One of the mistakes that we make is thinking that all Judaism is the same. Even in Yeshua's day, there were at least five major schools of Judaism, just like in Christianity there are a myriad of distinguishable denominations of Christianity. Yeshua's teaching on the mount was consistent with the Hillelic interpretation of Leviticus 19. Paul said that All of Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable... (2nd Timothy 3:16-17) You're suggesting that elements of must not be considered Scripture by Paul. I would suggest that rather than cutting out what appears to be in contradiction to you, seek out an interpretation that brings harmony, rather than dismisses texts. When studying scientifically, you pattern your experimentation to follow a hypothesis. When the experiment challenges your hypothesis, do you dismiss it or do you re-evaluate your hypothesis? We ought to read Scripture the same way- the Bible is the evidence of our faith. We don't throw out the experiments that ton't line up with our doctrine. We re-evalate and reform our doctrine to line up with the consistent evidence of the text. |
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Post by Yitzchak on Aug 8, 2006 7:00:14 GMT -8
This is an excellent point, and is demonstrated in Parsha Korach. For in the rebellion of Korach, it is that He questioned whether the Law was given by Moses and just approved by G-d, rather than being given by G-d through Moses His servant.
This is one of the great deceptions within the church. Somehow it is believed that by calling it the Law of Moses, one can separate it from the giver who is G-d.
Those who take this position, are in essence no better than Korach, for they attribute the Law to a man, and just assume that G-d gave His stamp of approval.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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Curt
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Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Aug 8, 2006 17:51:05 GMT -8
Curt: God inspired Moses to write what is called Moses Law. My position isn’t that Moses added to the Law of God. My position is God added to God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) and again later at the cross He annulled what the Bible calls “Moses Law”. Just because God inspired Moses to write “Moses Law” doesn’t mean God did not intend to distinguish between the two laws. There are so many distinguishing marks between God’s Ten Commandment and Moses Law that I believe it was for the purpose of definitely differentiating between the two laws. Why would God go to such trouble placing in our Bibles those many distinguishing marks? It’ so His people would without a doubt know which law was annulled and nailed to the cross. Curt: All scripture was inspired of God. Moses didn’t violate Deulteronomy 4:2 He wrote what God inspired him to write. What God inspired him to write was another added law at Mt. Sinai The Ten Commandment Law was personally written with the finger of God (a distinguishing mark) on a stone tablet (a distinguishing mark). Moses Law was handwritten by Moses (a distinguishing mark) in a book ( a distinguishing mark) I could give many more distinguishing marks! So all of the Pentateuch is inspired by God but two seperate laws exist in the Pentateuch as result of God inspiring these distinguishing marks to be written in scripture. Just because two laws exist in the Pentateuch doesn’t mean God didn’t inspire both. It also doesn’t mean just because God inspired both laws that all is called God’s Laws. If it was all God’s Law (Ten Commandment Law)then God wouldn’t speak of two different sets of laws in scripture. He also speaks of Moses Law. Curt: The commandments contained in the handwriting of requirements ( Moses Law) found in Colossians 2:14 tell us which commandments were nailed to the cross. The laws God ended wasn’t God’s Law (Ten Commandments) or a summary of the Ten Commandments but the laws God mentions in scripture Colossians 2:14 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Curt: Hebrews 9:10 goes into even more detail what was reformed which was laws concerning foods and drinks, various writings, and fleshly ordinances all from what God calls Moses Law in scripture. Hebrews 9:9-10 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. Curt: God also gives us additional information in Hebrews 10:8-9 telling us we no longer need to make sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin. These laws are also found in what God calls Moses Law. Hebrews 10:8-9 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Curt: I’ll look at them.
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Post by Mark on Aug 9, 2006 4:09:50 GMT -8
First, Ecclesiastes 3:14 tells us that whatsoever God does it shall stand forever. Nothing can be added to it. Nothing can be taken away. God does it so that man may fear before Him. God never changes. His definition of sin never changes. His standard and expectation of righteousness never changes. We pull out and ignore the original languages as it suits our needs (I am as guilty); but in Colossians 2:14, the word "ordinances" (in my translation), "requirements" in yours is the Greek word "dogma". It is commonly used in reference to an edict or a decree- interestingly enough, not once in either the New Testament or the Greek Septuagint as making reference to . Dogma consistently represents edicts that have been passed down by man (in most cases, the governing ruler). This makes sense when we read verses 14-22 together: the principalities and powers representing human authorities, in verse 22 even being specified as "the doctrines and commandments of men." Consistently, the Church has suggested that this text is anti- ; but you can just as easily read it as the gentile authority forbidding involvement in Hebraic festivals. You completely mishandled Hebrews 10 in saying that the blood of goats and bulls is NO LONGER necessary. That's not what the text says. It says that the sacrificial system WAS NEVER sufficient for atoning for sin. Interestingly enough, Paul was still participating in the sacrificial system in Acts 21:20-26. Remember that salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua the Messiah has always been the way of salvation (Hebrews 11, Romans 4). Nothing has changed. We find that the subject of Hebrews form beginning to end revolves around the Temple in Jerusalem. There's much debate as to whether or not the Hebrews was written before of after the Temple's destruction in 70 AD. Even if it had not yet occurred, the political handwriting was certainly on the wall. It's easy to take the references to eating and drinking and washing (Hebrews 9:10) out of that context; but those were elements of the sacrificial system in the Temple; and as referenced there is only talking about Temple worship prescribed in (not the eating of unclean meats nor remembering the festivals). Failure to observe these sacrificial ordinances when the Temple is not accessible is not opposed to , it is part of it- Deuteronomy 12:13 tells us that the Temple is the only place where sacrifices may be made. Deuteronomy 12:21 and Deuteronomy 14:24 tell us what to do when there is no Temple. It is no different from the period in which Daniel and Ezekiel worshiped in Babylon. It's an interesting phrase in Hebrews 8:13. "A new covenant He has made the first old. Now that which decays (palayah: rendering obsolete) and waxes old (decays over time) is ready to vanish away. The Church predominately teaches that the sacrificial system was made obsolete when Yeshua died on the cross; but then phrase should read, "that which decays and waxes old has already vanished away." The phrase suggests that the value of Temple worship has lingered more than 35 years past the Messiah's work. Now look at the "New Covenant". It is quoted from Jeremiah 31:28-34. The conditions of that covenant being fulfilled (with Israel, not the gentile Church) is that all of Israel will walk in without need of any teacher. Has this condition yet been met? It is clear that the writer of Hebrews understood this was not yet the case, even in 70 AD. |
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Post by messimom on Aug 9, 2006 14:45:57 GMT -8
I agree in that Galations is addressing a concern of people trying to revert to trying to use works for salvation instead of through faith in Yeshua. I was just saying that it seemed the way you were using Galations in your argument you were sidestepping the point that Paul's whole argument here was about justification through works, not doing the works themselves, but believing they justified their actions. They were being foolish by thinking that following the law made them righteous. In reality it only made them obedient. You follow because you love YHVH, not because they make you better than your brother. I agree, but by that account you can not be made perfect either by following the ten commandments, so by that reasoning neither are perfect and therefore both are innaffective. Neither the ten commandments, or the rest of the following were ever meant to bring perfection. Just instruction. The only "flaw" in the sacrificial system is that the way it is set up with the temple it is only a shadow of the complete forgiveness that Yeshua can bring. And in as much as a shadow of a person against a wall can show an accurate representation of the outline of that person, it cannot show color and depth as looking at the real person. So in as much as you can "see" what the person's form will look like, you cannot see the whole person until they are standing before you. The sacrifices set in place for intentional sin are there to help you see the the process' outline, until the real thing can be there to embody it. In the end, the sacrificial system is perfect and not flawed in that one day Yeshua himself showed up and fulfilled the perfect sacrifice that the bulls and goats were representing until then. The sacrifical system did exactly what it was supposed to do all along. Its a very hard concept to explain I find. Ok, so when he said if you rely on the law then you are under a curse what would they be relying on the law for? Salvation, righteousness. Again, he is not addressing aberrance through following the law, rather the mistake of relying on the law for righteousness. The verse you were asking about here is Gal 3:6-9, sorry I didn't make that clear. And, yes it was describing the promise made to Abraham. You had made a point that the law was conflicting with the promise of faith given earlier, and I was countering that the promise of salvation through faith was merely a parallel to the sacrificial system, not a conlfict with it. Concerning this verse and others I quoted from Galations 3 and some from 4 I was attempting to show that the Galations argument is merely used by Paul to divert those following the law out of the belief of necessity for salvation, rather than obedience, a show of love. So, yes, I used some verses that you had not used, that's why you didn't recall using them. If it was annulled as you say, then why does there exist these verses? Isaiah 66:15-24:
15: "For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16: For by fire will the LORD execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.
17: "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, says the LORD. 18: "For I know their works and their thoughts, and I am coming to gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and shall see my glory,
19: and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Put, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations.
20: And they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their cereal offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
21: And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
22: "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain.
23: From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. 24: "And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." and in Zachariah 14:
1: Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you.
2: For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
4: On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.
5: And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzzi'ah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6: On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost.
7: And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light.
8: On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter.
9: And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
10: The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft upon its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Han'anel to the king's wine presses.
11: And it shall be inhabited, for there shall be no more curse; Jerusalem shall dwell in security.
12: And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths.
13: And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will lay hold on the hand of his fellow, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other;
14: even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance.
15: And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the asses, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
16: Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.
17: And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
18: And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall come the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19: This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 20: And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar;
21: and every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the flesh of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day. [/b] These selections speak clearly of New Moons, regulations of foods, and the festival of booths. These are all prophetic scriptures speaking of the end of times, the Lords day and what not. I still don't understand how you can say "Moses' law" is annulled and yet these parts seem to still be clearly in place at the end of the ages. Maybe that many stones would have been too heavy for Moses to carry down the hill!! LOL In the selection you quoted above it is Psalm 40:6-9 is being quoted, and this is long before Yeshua; so long before our sacrifice lamb was on the scene, people knew sacrifices were not what YHVH would have, He would much rather us not sin at all. 6: Sacrifice and offering thou dost not desire; but thou hast given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering thou hast not required.
7: Then I said, "Lo, I come; in the roll of the book it is written of me;
8: I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is within my heart."
9: I have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation; lo, I have not restrained my lips, as thou knowest, O LORD. also, Psalm 51:16-19 corresponds with the theme of sacrifices being unacceptable: 15: O Lord, open thou my lips, and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16: For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
17: The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18: Do good to Zion in thy good pleasure; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem,
19: then wilt thou delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on thy altar. Any place I have seen in scripture where someone is saying that sacrifices are unacceptable they are usually addressing the condition of the heart, and YHVH would much rather we do the right thing to begin with than have "pay restitution". It is the same thing now, YHVH would much rather we not sin to begin with than to have to pray for forgiveness. Curt you are very knowledgeable and I have enjoyed your posts. But, I feel we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. How could a fair and loving God force people to live under a law for thousands of years that neither redeems nor perfects and then, everyone lucky enough to be born after the appearance of Yeshua just get to skip all that and "just be good and believe"? There has to be more to the story than just that. You believe because your eternal life depends on it, you obey because its the right thing to do. Shalom, Messimom |
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Post by Golfnerd on Aug 10, 2006 5:36:46 GMT -8
if the "Law of Moses" as you put it - and it's really God's Law as Moses only took notes - was done away with, then we have NO true benchmark for what sin is. With nothing to determine what sin really is in the eyes of God, then Yeshua died for nothing. Without the , there is no sin. (Rom 5:13 NASB) for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.You are saved. Do you still sin? I know I still do. How do I know that I am sinning? By comparing my behavior to the . The hasn't gone anywhere. Now...please consider this seriously....are you truly saying that the Law of Moses is annulled/set aside/done away with? If that be so, then I caution you to REALLY RETHINK your stance.... (Heb 10:28 NASB) Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.DIES WITHOUT MERCY!! Please rethink this position. One last thing....if the Law of Moses is done away with, then the altar and the sacrificial system is removed as well. If this be so and the altar is removed, where does the blood of Yeshua go? Without an altar for it to be placed on, it falls to the ground and gets trampled. (Heb 10:29 NASB) How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?One more last thing...we have ALWAYS been saved by grace. It's been there from the beginning... (Exo 34:8 KJ2000) And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped.
(Exo 34:9 KJ2000) And he said, If now I have found grace in your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray you, go among us; for it is a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.looks like the sinner's prayer to me. |
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 11, 2006 5:34:11 GMT -8
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Post by Golfnerd on Aug 11, 2006 5:49:09 GMT -8
Shabbat Shalom David. Thanks for an EXCELLENT article. Blessings, Mark |
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 11, 2006 13:10:30 GMT -8
Curt, you will continue to insist that is not the right word, and I must continue to insist that it is, as it is used in the original Aramaic Peshitta/Peshitto in this passage. |
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 11, 2006 13:10:55 GMT -8
Thank you for the compliment, Mark, and you're welcome.
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Curt
Full Member
Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Aug 11, 2006 15:19:01 GMT -8
Curt: I read the Galatians threads. They are well written and I can see a lot of thought and thinking went into them. I do have some disagreement with them but would rather address it there at a later time. I didn’t use to much of Galatians in this thread. When I did it was only in response to other peoples writings. Curt: Scripture doesn’t support the opinion that the Ceremonial Laws and ordinances found in Moses Law wasn’t the subject matter for what was done away with. What was specifically mentioned was the handwriting of ordinances and we’ve already established Moses hand wrote the ordinances in a book.(one of the distinguishing marks) Colossians 2:14 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Curt: That is true of God’s Law(Ten Commandments). It has to be true since the Ten Commandments is the character of God. Psalm 111:7-8 7The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. Curt: It’s not true of Moses Law. Think about it if Moses Law was eternal why wasn’t in existence until 430 years later at Mount Sinai. Also why does scripture say in Ephesians 2:15. the law of commandments contained in ordinances was abolished. Galatians 3:17 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect
Ephesians 2:15
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Isaiah 2:2-3
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Curt: The key can be found in Isaiah 2:2. The time period is the “latter days”. The “latter days” is just before Jesus returns. The “latter days” is certainly after Jesus was nailed to the cross. And again what was nailed to the cross “the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us (Moses Law). So if Moses Law was nailed to the cross they are talking about God’s Law (Ten Commandment Law) going forth. “His ways” distinguishes which law is being talked about. Scripture is talking about God’s Law not Moses Law.
Curt: This verse Isaiah 2:2 is not taking place when Jesus is on earth. This talking about a time before He returns. When Jesus returns He won’t be teaching anyone commandments because He will already have had put the Ten Commandments in His people’s minds and wrote them on their hearts.
Hebrews 8:10-11
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them
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Curt: Zechariah 14:1-2 starts out by speaking about past history not future events.
Zechariah 14:1-2 1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Curt: When Jesus returns with His saints New Jerusalem will not be taken, your spoils not divided in your midst, houses not rifled, women not ravished and no one will go into captivity because the nations will be utterly destroyed by God’s fire from heaven.
Revelation 20:9
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Curt: So when Jerusalem was taken, houses rifled, women ravished, spoils taken in your midst and half the city taken into captivity occurred it was before Jesus returned and is all in past history. The last six verses of Zechariah 14:16-21 is also in past history.
Zechariah 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Curt: This also speaking of a time period in past history because when Jesus returns all the wicked will die. There won’t be anyone around on earth except Satan and his demons during the 1000 year millennium.
Revelation 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it
Curt: This also occurs in past history. When Jesus returns there won’t be any temple in New Jerusalem because the Lamb is the temple.
Revelation 21:22
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Curt: of course this is found in Matthew 5:17-19 the very subject matter of this thread. You can reread my previous replys showing it is talking about God’s Law (Ten Commandments) not Moses Law.
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were commandments.' "You depart from YHWH's commandments and hold onto human tradition."[Mar 7:7-8]
Curt: God’s commandments is the Ten Commandments, written by Him on tablets of stone. It’s Moses Law that was handwritten by a man in a book and spoken by Moses to the people.
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