Trinity

[Pioneer]

Shalom,

I continue to repeat myself, there is a penalty for teaching falsehood! One may believe in a particular dogma without suffering any loss, but open your mouth (in this case keyboard) to teach it carries a heavy penalty.
Where in the whole of the bible is there evidence of a God breathed trinity?

Whether you are Jew or Gentile, you can't speak without words! God is "Allmighty" and I suppose could speak without words if he chose to. The Hebrews (yeah in Kabbahlah) say the first created thing was the Aleph Tav/Alphabet, John the Kabbahlist says about the same thing and then another Kabbahlist not only implied, but spoke it clearly; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;!!!

I came to this movement at a very old age, the first thing that the comfortor brought to my mind was Yeshua's comment; Lu.11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
My mind had been filled with a little truth and tons of garbage! When the "Truth" came into me"Word of God" the garbage was dumped! I was mad at those who had filled my mind with all that foul smelling garbage (I did have to forgive them) my earthly father always said "Fool me once, on you. Fool me twice on me." Even though some of the dogmas were like an old comfortable shoe, if you drag it into a clean house the foul odor comes with it.
So after the garbage was dumped and good clean air/ filled the house from floor to ceiling, there was and is no room for the unclean spirit. Much less his seven buddies!
So if it is not God breathed, it does not belong in my mind. I can not serve two masters.
I am foursquare for the bible that supports the ! We are told to guard the /truth!
We are not to add nor subtract from it, the word of God was the truth before the truth became a man and lived among us. Proving him to be God is not possible. What is possible is to become convinced, then espouse our convictions. Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
While some speak from conviction, I will quote and it's cohorts/Tanach and B'rit Hadashah! Commentary is good if it is sifted through the word of God.
Prove all things! By what? The "Word of God"!
Steps down off his soapbox.
Shalom

[Mark]

Pioneer,

I find your ranting offensive and I am personally embarrassed for your sake. Your suggestion that John was Kabalist is ludicrous with no biblical support; yet you go on to ignore pages of solid evidence that Yeshua is divine in nature. Your tactic of resorting to bitter hostility when you've run out of theological defense is intolerable.

Blake, obviously, John thought that Zechariah 12 applied or he would not have quoted it. Did not the people mourn?

Luk 23:48 RNKJV
(48) And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.

I should say that it fits perfectly.

[Nachshon]

blake said:

mark said:

For me, personally, the strongest argument supporting Yeshua as being Elohim is in Zechariah 12:10. Ha Shem speaking says, "I will pour upon the House of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced..." So, HaShem, Elohim, is pierced for the sake of Israel.

Probably the most startling evidence from the Messiah was his statement in John 8:58. "Before Abraham was 'I AM'." His statement was clearly understood to be declaring His divinity (evidenced by the response, also described in John 10:33).

For Zecheriah 12:10, I think it's people who come in with a pre-understood notion that Mashiakh is divine who distort the text, or are willing to rely on a biased (IE C*h*r*i*s*t*ian) translation of the scriptures. Even John himself did not under stand the verse to be a reference to G-d but instead quoted it "They will look unto whom they pierced" not the rendering "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced".

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. Zecheriah 12:10 JPS

This is a more accurate rendering, that it is one of Beta Dawid (IE Mashiakh) that is thrust-through or pierced rather than G-d.... I mean how could G-d who is without form, without physicality, without the limits of material, incomperable to anything in creation be pierced? Even *if* G-d inhabited a mortal body its only the flesh that could be harmed or pierced, not the G-d that inhabited it. Think about it. I would also point out that this verse maintains those who pierced him would mourn for him as their only Son.
Does that really fit with what happened at the crucifixion of Y'hoshua Ben-Yoseif? Did those who killed him mourn for him bitterly?

I'm sorry, but the MT says "v'hibiytuw eliy et asher-ddaqaruw"
Clearly, "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced," unless you contest the fact that eliy is properly translated "to me."
Yes, those who killed Him bitterly weep. I killed Him. I bitterly weep.

Shalom,
David

[Nachshon]

blake said:

nachshon said:

I think the best argument for it is Isaiah 63. Translation doesn't matter much, but the LITV has the most accurate that I've seen.

I don't see this as a Messianic prophecy. Remember, even when Moshe lifted his staff over the Sea of Reeds and the water parted, it was G-d not Moshe who did the parting and Moshe was not G-d. Neither must Mashiakh be G-d.

And I looked, and no one was helping...Then My own arm saved for Me, and My fury upheld me." Is. 63:5 The difference is that this time no one was helping Him. This is why He had to do it Himself.

Shalom,
David

[Nachshon]

Natan'el, I think it was, made the comment that we cannot get everything from Scripture, and so have to go to other sources. I beg to differ. David (Psalm 19:7) tells us that the Towra is perfect, that is, Tamiym; complete, whole, entire, without blemish.
I firmly believe that even if you dropped someone on a desert island with only a Towrah, no Neviyim, no K'tuvim, no B'rit Chadesha, they could come to just as full an understanding of Father as we do, with all of the Writings, and any number of outside sources. It would probably take longer and be more difficult to discover everything that we have clearly laid out for us, but it could be done.
According to Deut. 28:58, all the words of the Towrah were written in the books by Mosheh.

Shalom,
David

[Yitzchak]

Whether you are Jew or Gentile, you can't speak without words! God is "Allmighty" and I suppose could speak without words if he chose to. The Hebrews (yeah in Kabbahlah) say the first created thing was the Aleph Tav/Alphabet, John the Kabbahlist says about the same thing and then another Kabbahlist not only implied, but spoke it clearly; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;!!!

Pioneer,

On one of the previous posts Mark established that the problem was not about the doctrine of the Trinity, but about the diety of Yeshua.

We have allowed you your opinion, and we have not railed at you for what we believe to be an inaccurate portrayal of biblical truth. Yet you have chosen to chide those here who hold to a different position, and who have given sufficient evidence to support their positions.

As has been presented earlier, the concept of the plurality of G-d is not a "christian" concept, but a Jewish one. It has its roots in the Kabalistic teaching regarding the "Sefirot." There is no doubt that the "trinity" concept is in error. There is only "Adonai Echad"

The "christian" concept supports the notion that there are three
personalities to G-d, and this is where the allusion to polytheism begins. In Messianic Judaism we support the notion that there is One G-d, however G-d has chosen to manifest Himself in many different ways. Three of the most specifice ways that HaShem has chosen to manifest himself is as Av, HaBen, and Ruach.

Regarding the issue of Alef/Tav, and the Kabalists, I recommend that you read some of the following scripture verses.


Isaiah 41:4"Who has performed and accomplished it,
Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
"I, the L-RD, am the first, and with the last I am He.'"

Isaiah 44:6"Thus says the L-RD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the L-RD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no G-d besides Me.

Isaiah 48: 12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13"Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14"Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The L-RD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15"I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16"Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there
And now the L-rd G-D has sent Me, and His Spirit."

Revelation 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Rev 2:8"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

There is just no way to reconcile these scriptures unless one recognizes that Yeshua is indeed one of the manifestations of G-d. In other words, Yeshua is Divine.

There cannot be more than one "first and last", and there cannot be more than one "King of Israel."

While I am the first to argue against the "trinity", I am also the first to argue the divinity of Messiah as supported by the Tanakh, and Brit Chadasha.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Chizuk Emunah]

Natan'el, I think it was, made the comment that we cannot get everything from Scripture, and so have to go to other sources.

You misunderstood. I said that in order to gain better understanding (ie... the bigger picture), then we should seek out additional sources. What are the Neviim, Ketuvim, and Ketuvim Shilachim if not commentary on the ? As they will certainly yield greater understanding, should one not also seek out additional texts if they will serve to provide yet more understanding?

[Nachshon]

Oh. I'm sorry. Thank you for clarifying.
I really think, though, that there is nothing we cannot get from studying Hebrew and Aramaic, and from using exegesis. You are right, they are essentially commentary, which is why I ask why we need any other commentary. Essentially the only outside sources I consult are a concordance and a lexicon.

Shalom,
David

[Pioneer]

How quick to jump to conclusions! Misrepresent! And accuse!
Please show where I denied the heiritage of Yeshua?
The subject is Trinity, my comments were to this subject.

pioneer said:

Shalom,
I continue to repeat myself, there is a penalty for teaching falsehood! One may believe in a particular dogma without suffering any loss, but open your mouth (in this case keyboard) to teach it carries a heavy penalty.
Where in the whole of the bible is there evidence of a God breathed trinity?

If this quote chalenges your concept of Yeshua, argue with Sha'ul. He and the Hebrew Kabalist are the ones who say Aleph Tav/Yeshua is the first created thing! If John is not a Kabalist what planet did he escape from? Isn't spiritual revelation Kabbahlah? The SOD level of intrepretation.

pioneer said:

Whether you are Jew or Gentile, you can't speak without words! God is "Allmighty" and I suppose could speak without words if he chose to. The Hebrews (yeah in Kabbahlah) say the first created thing was the Aleph Tav/Alphabet, John the Kabbahlist says about the same thing and then another Kabbahlist not only implied, but spoke it clearly; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;!!!

This next part is a testamonial, mine, refers only to me.

pioneer said:

I came to this movement at a very old age, the first thing that the comfortor brought to my mind was Yeshua's comment; Lu.11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
My mind had been filled with a little truth and tons of garbage! When the "Truth" came into me"Word of God" the garbage was dumped! I was mad at those who had filled my mind with all that foul smelling garbage (I did have to forgive them) my earthly father always said "Fool me once, on you. Fool me twice on me." Even though some of the dogmas were like an old comfortable shoe, if you drag it into a clean house the foul odor comes with it.
So after the garbage was dumped and good clean air/ filled the house from floor to ceiling, there was and is no room for the unclean spirit. Much less his seven buddies!
So if it is not God breathed, it does not belong in my mind. I can not serve two masters.
I am foursquare for the bible that supports the ! We are told to guard the /truth!

This next part is like holding up a magazine up in front of you and asking your audience "What do you see" then after they answer you look up and you see something different! A different perspective, a different point of view. And a warning given by Yeahua. If anyone could prove Yeshua is God, there would be no need for discussion. The scriptures are filled with God saying that he is our Salvation/Yeshua(s#3444) zero scriptures saying "I Yeshua, am your Elohim." Mr 9:7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" Shall I dispute the recorded voice of God?

pioneer said:

We are not to add nor subtract from it, the word of God was the truth before the truth became a man and lived among us. Proving him to be God is not possible. What is possible is to become convinced, then espouse our convictions. Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
While some speak from conviction, I will quote and it's cohorts/Tanach and B'rit Hadashah! Commentary is good if it is sifted through the word of God.
Prove all things! By what? The "Word of God"!
Steps down off his soapbox.
Shalom

If you do not wish to believe that Yeshua is the "Word of God"/Living , don't!
If you want to be rid of one who does, just say so!

I bashed an idea, not anyone.

Shalom

[Nachshon]

"The Miltha was in the beginning, and that very Miltha was with God, and God was that Miltha...And the Miltha became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, a glory like that of the firstborn of th eFather, full of grace and truth...For the was given by Mosheh, and grace and truth came into being by Yeshua HaMashiach." Yukhanan 1:1,14&17
As much as Yukhanan was certainly very mystical, I do not believe he was a Kabbalist. There is so much in Kabbalism that too closely resmebles witchcraft.

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

As much as Yukhanan was certainly very mystical, I do not believe he was a Kabbalist.

We need to look at some background here. First and foremost, Yochanan taught almost exclusively on the sod level. The reason for this is his background.

The Essenes were a small but prominent sect in the 1st Cent. They were an extremely mystical group as well as extremely apocalyptic. They also believed that Moshiach ben-Yosef was going to come at any moment.

It was from this background and environment from which Yochanan was raised. It is believed that he separated from them (along with others) when HaShem told him to start calling others (outside the community) to repentance.

There is so much in Kabbalism that too closely resmebles witchcraft.

This is very true. That is why it is Highly Recommended that no-one attempt to study it unless they have a firm foundation in , because if they do not then they will most certainly falter.

[Yitzchak]

pioneer said:

How quick to jump to conclusions! Misrepresent! And accuse!
Please show where I denied the heiritage of Yeshua?
The subject is Trinity, my comments were to this subject.

This is from your orignal post:

I continue to repeat myself, there is a penalty for teaching falsehood! One may believe in a particular dogma without suffering any loss, but open your mouth (in this case keyboard) to teach it carries a heavy penalty.

You make a very bold statement here that is accusatory. You do not direct it at anyone in particular. How should we read this?

Are you not accusing someone here of teaching falsehood?

Perhaps we are misinterpreting, or misunderstanding the way you are presenting. It is easy to do that on the internet, as we are not face to face.

Maybe you can answer this question, "Do you believe that Yeshua is Divine?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Pioneer]

yitzchak said:

pioneer said:

How quick to jump to conclusions! Misrepresent! And accuse!
Please show where I denied the heiritage of Yeshua?
The subject is Trinity, my comments were to this subject.

This is from your orignal post:

I continue to repeat myself, there is a penalty for teaching falsehood! One may believe in a particular dogma without suffering any loss, but open your mouth (in this case keyboard) to teach it carries a heavy penalty.

You make a very bold statement here that is accusatory. You do not direct it at anyone in particular. How should we read this?

Are you not accusing someone here of teaching falsehood?

Perhaps we are misinterpreting, or misunderstanding the way you are presenting. It is easy to do that on the internet, as we are not face to face.

Maybe you can answer this question, "Do you believe that Yeshua is Divine?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

As I stated from the beginning whoever teaches falsehood, i.e. trinity will suffer a harsh penalty, 2Pe 2:1 ¶ But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
This was not directed at anyone individual, but to anyone who believes and teaches as truth, that in which Peter is discribing as a destructive heresies. Trinity is not God breathed!
I suppose anyone who is teaching the dogma of trinity might take it as an accussation, but it it is to reinforce the warnings throughout the bible.

Now as to your question of divinity! Have you filtered the term you are asking me about through the Tanach? Or are you asking me if I accept a Greco-Roman concept?
I have a severe problem with the English word which can mean satanic or godhead!

Asked in this way, Do I believe Yeshua is who he says he is and did he have Gods blood flowing through his veins? The answer is a resounding YES!
That being said, I believe what John wrote about there being both the "Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb."
No, I do not believe in a duality godhead. The NT is clear to me that Yeshua is the only begotten son of God and is promised his Fathers throne, also Mashiach ben David in Tanach is promised an unending reigh, Yeshua will return as Mashiach ben David, when he does those who are alive and those who are resurrected will see him as he is, then there will be no controversy! For we shall all be like he is!

Shalom

[Yitzchak]

As I stated from the beginning whoever teaches falsehood, i.e. trinity will suffer a harsh penalty, 2Pe 2:1 ¶ But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I have already made position clear on the subject of the trinity, and I believe others have as well. I do not believe that this concept is supported by our Administrator, or any of the Moderators here.

Now as to your question of divinity! Have you filtered the term you are asking me about through the Tanach? Or are you asking me if I accept a Greco-Roman concept?
I have a severe problem with the English word which can mean satanic or godhead!

Keep in mind that there are many people here that are new to Messianic Judaism, and who come out of the Hellenistic church, so I will often use terms that are easy for them to understand. I am sorry if this offended you, in the future I can pose all my questions to you in Hebrew if you prefer.

Do you prefer is Yeshua G-d?

How do you reconcile your presentation based on my earlier post with scriptures from Isaiah, and Revelation in which G-d and Yeshua are both refered to as the First and Last, and both are refered to as the King of Israel?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Pioneer]

yitzchak said:

As I stated from the beginning whoever teaches falsehood, i.e. trinity will suffer a harsh penalty, 2Pe 2:1 ¶ But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I have already made position clear on the subject of the trinity, and I believe others have as well. I do not believe that this concept is supported by our Administrator, or any of the Moderators here.

Now as to your question of divinity! Have you filtered the term you are asking me about through the Tanach? Or are you asking me if I accept a Greco-Roman concept?
I have a severe problem with the English word which can mean satanic or godhead!

Keep in mind that there are many people here that are new to Messianic Judaism, and who come out of the Hellenistic church, so I will often use terms that are easy for them to understand. I am sorry if this offended you, in the future I can pose all my questions to you in Hebrew if you prefer.

Do you prefer is Yeshua G-d?

How do you reconcile your presentation based on my earlier post with scriptures from Isaiah, and Revelation in which G-d and Yeshua are both refered to as the First and Last, and both are refered to as the King of Israel?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

I am well aware that the administrator and the moderators do not present the trinity, had been expressing this t any of you it would have been in a PM. This is a forum and some people who read it are still carrying the concept in their hippocket, so in no uncertain terms I have expressed teaching such a dogma is to look forward to severe penalties.

Do you prefer is Yeshua G-d?

If you have had a SOD experience in which this was revealed to you, that is between you and your God, God did not chose to reveal this to everyone or Yeshua would have said in p'shat language "I am your God/Elohim." He came very close but never did he say that!
Yeshua is the seed of God/son of God/image of the invisible God/Lamb of God/word of God, sent by God as redemption for sin of man. As the administrator has said "This is not a salvation issue."
One should testify to their Sod experience where God revealed He and Yeshua are echad/one or as a man and his wife are one.
This has not been revealed to me nor have I spoke in tongues.
So until I experience either, I will only testify to what has been revealed to me or what is clearly written in scripture.
My Sod experience has revealed that the gospels are written as PARDES, Mark is P'shat and John is SOD, they are not in anyway synoptic as most of the Christian commentators say. So anyone can plainly see that I can not agree with the Karite crowd.

In the beginning God made Adam in His image. Now whether Adams appearance changed when Eve was taken out of him or when they collectively sinned, I do not know, but it is clear to me God made Adam perfect with perfect blood, when sin came into the world that changed. The second/Firster Adam/Yeshua was born with God's perfect blood, that blood was the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

As to reconciling God and Yeshua saying I am the first and the last. The bible is clear, That He God opened his mouth and the Word came forth and creation, creation is acredited to God in Genesis and to the word of God in John. John said the word was God. Did he mean was or is? Ane or esti? The word of God was sent into the world, God was still in heaven continuing to answer prayer and keeping his creation from collapsing while the Word of God was in the world as the redeemer and savior of mankind, he did his job was slain again and spilled his perfect blood for all repentant man wishing to be washed clean of all of his sin.
God raised his mashiach/son/lamb from the dead and placed him at the right hand as King/Lord/Savior- King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
God is the head of Yeshua, Yeshua, the head of man, man the head of woman. Sha'ul. Ro 11:16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches

So if only those who have been revealed that God and Yeshua are echad are accepted here just say so, because I do not wish to be where I am unwanted.

Shalom