Trinity

[Rick]

:Errors such as the Trinity were introduced right under people's noses.

I guess I should have been more specific, I meant in regards to the trinity,(as error), and scripture to support your statement.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I think it really depends by what one means by three. If it simply means a unity of three distinctions, we have no problem. Let us keep this discussion focused on the subject of "trinity" and not that of the nature of Messiah as there is already a thread dedicated to this subject. Also, let us remember the forum rules when it comes to this discussion.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Rick]

Ok, here we go, keep in mind this is intended with all due respect and love. This is how I see it FROM scripture.
In order to understand the triune of YHWH, look at your bible. Your bible also has three aspects,(1) it has height,(2) it has width,(3) it has depth, these are three distinct properties, each is different from the other but one cannot be separated from the others, it cannot exist without all three componants, the three are ONE. So it is with G-d. There are 3 coexistent, co-eternal members that make up G-d. Understand that this is NOT in anyway suggesting 3 Gods. As the 'creature' we are limited in our perception of the 'Creator'. G-d is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. YHWH is eternal, therefore independant,(or outside of) both time and space, since He created both, (this is taught in the Rabbinic comentarys, as well as "Christian" doctrines). So this means there are at least 2 more dimensions to G-d, (G-d is also infinite but for my point we will just use two). We as 3 dimensional beings are barely able to wrap our mind around 4, let alone infinite dimensions, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true. ;D
Isa 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares YHWH.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
It could be likened to a 2 dimensional creature trying to grasp the 'depth' of something, which in a 2D world might be known in theory, but imperceivable to him because it is 'beyond' his limits.
It is written: I Jn 5:7 FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE (1)FATHER, (2, Yeshua)THE WORD, AND (3)THE HOLY SPIRIT: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.
ONE G-D is manifested in three, eternally co-existing componants: G-d the Father, G-d the Son, and G-d the Holy Spirit.
Jn 7:39 And this He said concerning the Spirit, which those believing in Him were about to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Yeshua was not yet esteemed
Jn 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the (1)Holy Spirit, whom (2)the Father will send in (3)my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 10:30-38 I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE. Again the Yehudim picked up stones to stone Him. Yeshua answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. Because of which of these works do you stone Me?” The Yehudim answered Him, saying, “We do not stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself Elohim.” Yeshua answered them, “Is it not written in your own , ‘I said, “You are elohim” ’? “If He called them elohim, to whom the word of Elohim came – and it is impossible for the Scripture to be broken – do you say of Him whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of Elohim’? “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
Jn 17:22,23 AND THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; AND THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME, AND HAST LOVED THEM, AS THOU HAST LOVED ME.
Jn 16:13-15 “But when He comes, the Spirit of the Truth, He shall guide you into all the truth. For He shall not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears He shall speak, and He shall announce to you what is to come.
“He shall esteem Me, for He shall take of what is Mine and announce it to you. “All that the Father has is Mine. That is why I said that He takes from what is Mine and announces it to you.
In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two; Gen 1:26 AND ELOHIM SAID, LET US (more than one) MAKE MAN IN OUR (plural) IMAGE, AFTER OUR (plural) LIKENESS. Gen 3:22 ELOHIM SAID, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US (plural).
We being made "in the image of G-d" are ourselves triune beings; Mind, Body, and Spirit. Again three distinct parts and yet we each are also one.
Isa 11:1,2 AND THERE SHALL COME FORTH A ROD OUT OF THE STEM OF JESSE, AND A BRANCH SHALL GROW OUT OF HIS ROOTS: AND (1)THE SPIRIT OF (2)THE L-RD SHALL REST UPON (3) HIM.
Isa 42:1 BEHOLD MY SERVANT, WHOM I UPHOLD; MINE ELECT, IN WHOM MY SOUL DELIGHTETH; I (1) HAVE PUT (2) MY SPIRIT UPON (3) HIM: HE SHALL BRING FORTH JUDGMENT TO THE GENTILES.
Isa 48:16 FROM THE BEGINNING; FROM THE TIME THAT IT WAS, THERE (1) AM I: AND NOW THE (2) L-RD G-D, AND HIS (3) SPIRIT, HATH SENT (1) ME
1. YHWH, the Father.
2. G-d, the Son, which is Yeshua. THE WORD is Yeshua. It is written, HIS NAME (Yeshua) IS CALLED THE WORD OF G-D (Rev 19:13).
Also it is written, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (Yeshua), AND THE WORD (Yeshua) WAS WITH G-D, AND THE WORD (Yeshua) WAS G-D. (Note, Yeshua is the Word and He is G-d.) AND THE WORD (Yeshua) WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US. (Jn 1:1,14) 3. G-d, the Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit.
YHWH is one : (Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4; Gal 3:20; 1 Tim 2:5). YHWH consists of three members: (Gen 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Mat 3:16-17; Mat 28:19; 2 Cor 13:14). In Gen 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isa 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. In Isa 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isa 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Mat 3:16-17 describes Yeshuas' baptism. G-d the Holy Spirit descends on G-d the Son while G-d the Father proclaims; and see, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I did delight.” . Mat 28:19 and 2 Cor 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct aspects of G-d. The aspects of G-d are distinguished one from another in various passages of the Tanakh: "L-RD" is distinguished from "L-rd" (Gen 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "L-rd" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Prov 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "L-RD" (Num 27:18) and from "G-d" (Psalm 51:10-12). G-d the Son is distinguished from G-d the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Heb 1:8-9). , Jn 14:16-17 Yeshua speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. Yeshua did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Yeshua speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another member of the Godhead - the Father. Each member of the Godhead is G-d: The Father is (G-d: Jn 6:27; Rom 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is G-d: (Jn 1:1, 14; Rom 9:5; Col 2:9; Heb 1:8; 1 Jn 5:20). The Holy Spirit is G-d: (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Cor 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9; Jn 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4). Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. See: Luke 22:42; Jn 5:36; Jn 20:21; 1 Jn 4:14 (The Son). See: Jn 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially Jn 16:13-14 (Holy Spirit) . The Father is the ultimate SOURCE of: the universe, (1 Cor 8:6; Rev 4:11); divine revelation, (Rev 1:1); salvation, (Jn 3:16-17); and Yeshuas' human works (Jn 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things. The Son is THROUGH whom the Father does: the creation of the universe, (1 Cor 8:6; Jn 1:3; Col 1:16-17); divine revelation, (Jn 1:1; Mat 11:27; Jn 16:12-15; Rev 1:1); and salvation, (2 Cor 5:19; Mat 1:21; Jn 4:42). The Father does all these things THROUGH the Son. The Holy Spirit is the MEANS by whom the Father does the following : creation and maintenance of the universe (Gen 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation, (Jn 16:12-15; Eph 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation, (Jn 3:6; Tit 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Yeshuas' works (Isa 61:1; Acts 10:38). The Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Without question, the Scripture shows us that the YHWH is one, but consists of three separate aspects-(1)G-d the Father, (2)G-d the Son, and (3)G-d the Holy Spirit.
YHWH has warned us in the scriptures that this is the age when many doctrines will come along before Yeshua's return. Be vigilant.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Rom 16:17 Now I call upon you, brothers, watch out for those who cause divisions and stumbling, contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
Eph 4:14 so that we should no longer be children, tossed and borne about by every wind of teaching, by the trickery of men, in cleverness, unto the craftiness of leading astray,
1Ti 4:6 If you present these matters to the brothers, you shall be a good servant of Yeshua Messiah, being nourished in the words of belief and of the good teaching which you have followed closely.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, give attention to reading of Scripture, to encouragement, to teaching.
1Ti 4:16 Pay attention to yourself and to the teaching. Continue in them, for in doing this you shall save both yourself and those who hear you.
1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound words, those of our Master Yeshua Messiah, and to the teaching which is according to reverence,
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed by Elohim and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness,
Tit 1:9 clinging to the trustworthy word, according to the teaching, in order to be able both to encourage by sound teaching, and to reprove those who oppose it.
2Jo 1:9-10 Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess Elohim. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house nor greet him,
Do not get caught in one of HaSatan's deceptions. The Scriptures show that "many will be deceived"
(Mt 24:11) Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
It is my veiw, from the Word, that to believe that the 'Trinity' is "error"; is itself to be in error, and contrary to what is clearly written.
In our Zeal for and truth, lets not "throw the baby out with the bath water"
Your brother in Yeshua
Rick

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom rej1s,
I will follow up with more later, but my comments for now will be limited to this:
I follow Judaism's lead when it comes to such doctrines as the trinity.

Judaism teaches that HaShem defies all limits of time and space. In this concept he is known as Ein Sof, meaning "without boundries." Ein Sof has chosen three distinct characteristics in which to make himself known to us. These are the three pillars of the G-d - head.
This is different from Christianity which believes that three distinct persons make up the G-d - head. Gotta go for now, but I will follow up with more later.

Shalom,
Notzari Y'hudi

[Rick]

Judaism teaches that HaShem defies all limits of time and space. In this concept he is known as Ein Sof, meaning "without boundries."

That is what I was alluding to here;

therefore independant,(or outside of) both time and space, since He created both, (this is taught in the Rabbinic comentarys

"what may be known of Elohim is manifest in them (mankind)
his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead" (or divine nature)." I have studied some on the "three pillars" I don't think they (and the triune) are necessarily exclusive of the other. The Zohar teaches that the two outer pillars are reconciled by the middle pillar. According to the Zohar the Middle Pillar of the Godhead is the Son of Yah, (seems obvious to me this is Yeshua).
I think we can find a broad base of agreement between "the three pillars" and "the trinity"
if not altogether reconcile the two. I'll wait for your follow up before I elaborate further.

shalom brother

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Yes, I agree that the three (Av/Ben/Ruach) are manifestations of the same Elohim, but not three separate and equal G-d's. Otherwise we would have three separate equal G-d's, which clearly contradicts the TeNaKh and the Shema. What I find interesting regarding the discussion of "Trinity" is that many Christians and believers in Yeshua The Messiah seem to want to make the subject of “Trinity” a salvation issue (I am not saying that anyone here is doing this). But, to my knowledge the scriptures do not make this doctrine an issue of salvation. Therefore, people whom take a stand which contradicts mainstream Christianity regarding this subject should not necessarily be classified as heretics. It is simply a debatable subject that does not determine one’s salvation, nor does it effect one’s walk with G’d. Anyone may feel free to disagree with me, but this is how I see it at this time.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Rick]

Yes, I agree that the three (Av/Ben/Ruach) are manifestations of the same Elohim, but not three separate and equal G-d's. Otherwise we would have three separate equal G-d's

I agree, "YHWH is one", I thought I made this clear in my post;

There are 3 coexistent, co-eternal members that make up G-d. Understand that this is NOT in anyway suggesting 3 Gods.

And I did not intend in my statements suggest that the three aspects are "co-equal"

Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father.

I feel that the "trinity" and the "three pillars" are quite compatable. I think that the main differences are in nomenclature and cultural perspective and/ or description/ explanation of; the exact same aspects. I also keep in mind that the targums etc. do not include reference or commentary on the relative Brit HaDashah scriptures. Also they have been used for generations as anti missionary, anti diety, and anti messiah in regards to Yeshua. To not include the Brit HaDashah is to not regard the Whole Word of G-d, and therefore the whole counsel of G-d. As long as we all agree on the Messiahship/Deity of Yeshua, the rest is simply sorting out the afore mentioned descriptive differences.

It is simply a debatable subject that does not determine one’s salvation

Agreed, all that I can think of that might be remotely close to this issue is; Mat 28:18-19 Yeshua came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
Therefore go, and make talmidim of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", I also cited this verse in my initial post, but only in regard to the support of my position on the Triune.

Shalom
Rick

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I agree, "YHWH is one", I thought I made this clear in my post;

You did make this clear. I wasn't trying to suggest that you didn't make this clear. I was just agreeing with everyone's thoughts on the issue.

To not include the Brit HaDashah is to not regard the Whole Word of G-d, and therefore the whole counsel of G-d. As long as we all agree on the Messiahship/Deity of Yeshua, the rest is simply sorting out the afore mentioned descriptive differences.

Agreed.

Agreed, all that I can think of that might be remotely close to this issue is; Mat 28:18-19 Yeshua came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
Therefore go, and make talmidim of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", I also cited this verse in my initial post, but only in regard to the support of my position on the Triune.

Yes, when one does something in the name of another, it can be understood to be done in the authority of that person. Therefore, we are to make disciples of all the nations by the authority of the Father, Son, and Spirit...three aspects describing Elohim.

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

I agree, "YHWH is one", I thought I made this clear in my post

You did. Mainstream Christianity however, does not. By teaching that the Ein Sof is 3 persons and 1 substance, they effectively turn him into 3 gods. This may even be done un-intentionally, but the fact remains that it is faulty teaching. It makes more sense to follow the Jewish line of thought in this matter, and teach that the Ein Sof is 1 person with 3 substances, or characteristics.

As promised, I will follow up with more detail later....

[Mercedes]

Shalom to all,

I wish to put a Messianic "Post it note" to all messianic believers everywhere. In regards to the quote "Ravenous wolves in sheep clothing" I think we are becoming quite like the the boy who cried wolf! wolf! Wolf!
I'm a wolf, no your a wolf, they are wolves.... Okay we get it. It's a jungle out there.
How about using a new one for just a little while like "Beware of the Yeast of the Pharisees."


The Trinity, The subject seems to always go about in a circle. How about we draw a definite line in which the battle will clearly be seen. If you go to the catholic encyclopedia at NewAdvent.org you can read the actual doctrine of the trinity. The trinity is the belief in Monotheism (one) as opposed to polytheism (many)which was the state of all pagans that Catholicism says they converted them from.
Here is a brief simplistic description of the Trinity; The Father manifested himself "like" a son and Spirit but at all times was and is the Father only. Is this an accurate view of your discussion?
Are you all Monotheist?
Shalom,
Mercedes

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom jmcmercedes,

Are you all Monotheist?

I can't really speak on everyone's behalf, but I believe so.

I wish to put a Messianic "Post it note" to all messianic believers everywhere. In regards to the quote "Ravenous wolves in sheep clothing" I think we are becoming quite like the the boy who cried wolf! wolf! Wolf!
I'm a wolf, no your a wolf, they are wolves.... Okay we get it. It's a jungle out there.

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. Can you expound a bit further?

Berachot b'Yeshua,
(Blessings in Yeshua)

Reuel

[Mercedes]

shalom Reuel,

Regarding the wolves I should of followed with a couple of these. For me reading and writing within the messianic and observant community for 20 years this quote of wolves is always thrown out when a discussion gets a little heated.
How many times have you heard it?
Another good one would be Rev's "Two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon?"

In Luke 10:3 Yeshua himself says: "I am sending you out like lambs among wolves." We are meant to be among them only meek and mild loving our enemy.

Blessings in the Lamb of God,
Mercedes

[Rick]

Shabbot Shalom Notzari,

By teaching that the Ein Sof is 3 persons and 1 substance, they effectively turn him into 3 gods.

It's interesting to note that it was the Roman church that 'reversed',(4th cent.?) the original teaching of the early church, that G-d was 3 aspects and 1 'person', not visa/versa as they teach today. Doesn't the Eastern Orthodox Church still maintain the original teaching?

Shalom
Rick

[Rick]

Shalom,Mercedes.

Are you all Monotheist?

...........

I can't really speak on everyone's behalf, but I believe so.

Ditto

this quote of wolves is always thrown out when a discussion gets a little heated

Since the thread just started, I didn't think the discussion was "heated"
Shalom
Rick

[Mercedes]

Shalom Rick,

Yes, correction not a heated discussion rather a "Hot topic."

Interesting to note that the word "trinity" is from the Greek "Trias" and Latin Trinitas and is not recorded in scripture. Funny thing is Mythraism does record their god as this "trias" and of course Constantine and his Roman soldiers all kept this faith. Magically the "trinity" doctrine is inserted at this exact time period of about 2A.D.

The Trinity is so obviously a Pyramid just like the Pyramid on the dollar bill that says in this "God we trust."
Egypt's pyramid will cling to the hearts of men till the day Yeshua returns.
Romans record Mithra as the god of Persia known to them as Ahura Mazda. Darius 1 ruler of the dispersion of Judah had his palace temple dedicated to this god also recorded as a "trias" god.
This "trinity" comes from quite a journey!
Shalom,
Mercedes