Trinity

[Nachshon]

blake said:

To me accepting the T*r*i*n*i*t*y is not a matter of admitting you can't understand G-d's nature. It is in fact putting HaShem into a box emphasizing three aspects above all the others present in Scripture. If you really are humble you would stop with "Hear of Yisra'El, HaShem your G-d is, HaShem is One!" and leave it at that. In Scripture HaShem chose to emphasize His Oneness, if he wanted to emphasize this triuneness He would've said "Hear of Yisra'el, HaShem your G-d(s) is, HaShem is three!".
T*r*i*n*i*t*y is a manmade way to try understand G-d's nature, which cannot be comprehended by mortal minds such as ours.

I choose to follow the words of HaShem not ideas invented by misojudaic "Church Fathers" centuries after the Mashiakh lived.

Blake, attacking someone's humility seems, to me, to be a bit strong. For one, most of us were raised with the (mis?)understanding of a Trinity. I think it is our duty to judge truth from fallacy, and to judge between holy and unholy, and clean and unclean. But I don't think it is really our duty to judge motives.

Shalom,
David

[Mark]

Let me say that in most cases, when a Christian staunchly defends the doctrine of Trinity, what he is really passionate for is the deity of Messiah Yeshua. (See thread theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=69 )

Trinity is simply represents three known manifested personages by which He is represented in the Bible (Shekina also being a physical representation of one of those personages). No Trinitarian who has put thought and study into the subject would suggest that Father, Son and Spirit is all that there is to God. It is simply representative of what is represented in Scripture- particularly giving weight to the words of Messiah in Matthew 28:19, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Blake, if it helps any, when the men in our fellowship were working on our doctrinal position statement (which, I'm not sure that we ever finished) we decided that the doctrine of Trinity was not something we ought to include, while the deity of Messiah Yeshua is essential. I think we said something like, "the multi-faceted characteristics of God are beyond our comprehension. Trinity fits into that for some.

[Nachshon]

So if we are going to limit it to a certain number, why three, when that is the number assigned to multiple pagan deities? Of course, there is a lot of dispute over Matt. 28:19.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Blake]

I would never purposely insult anyone, especially my friends here. I may use strong launguage, but its just because I don't wanna beat around the bush. I didn't mean to attack anyone's motives, G-d forbid.

I just wanted to show that being "humble" did not mean excepting such doctrines as the t*r*i*n*i*t*y.

[Nachshon]

That would depend on how we're defining humility.

[Blake]

Matthew 28:19 is the most often used "proof text" used for the T*r*i*n*i*tarian along with with 1 John 5:7. Both of which contain no additional witnesses in the "New Testament" and certainly not the Tanakh.

Also, both of these verses are widely regarded to be later interpolations made my C*h*r*i*s*tian scribes to justify their (in my opinion) erroneous belief.

If Ribi Y'hoshua made such a statement, why are ALL recorded baptisms in the rest of "New Testament" recorded to be in the name of J*e*s*u*s C*h*r*i*s*t and not in this threefold formula presented here? This too is witness to its late addition.

"The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted." -Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:

William Tyndale, who was one of the first to translate the Scriptures into English held such an opinion as well...

"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition." -The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275

And blaringly, the mother of abominations herself admits to having changed the formula on her own authority.

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century." -The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263


Quotations made by the early "Church Fathers" of the end of Matthew also seem to have been unaware of such a baptismal formula.

"Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." -Quotation of Matt. 28:19 in Demonstratio Evangelica by Eusebius pg. 152

Also, it should be noted that Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew contains absolutely no mention of this forumla.


""Y'hoshua drew near to them and said to them, "To me has been given all power on heaven and earth. Go and (teach) them to carry out all the things which I have taught you for ever and ever."" -Shem Tov's Mattityahu

[Firestorm]

mark said:

Let me say that in most cases, when a Christian staunchly defends the doctrine of Trinity, what he is really passionate for is the deity of Messiah Yeshua. (See thread theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=69 )

Trinity is simply represents three known manifested personages by which He is represented in the Bible (Shekina also being a physical representation of one of those personages). No Trinitarian who has put thought and study into the subject would suggest that Father, Son and Spirit is all that there is to God. It is simply representative of what is represented in Scripture- particularly giving weight to the words of Messiah in Matthew 28:19, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Blake, if it helps any, when the men in our fellowship were working on our doctrinal position statement (which, I'm not sure that we ever finished) we decided that the doctrine of Trinity was not something we ought to include, while the deity of Messiah Yeshua is essential. I think we said something like, "the multi-faceted characteristics of God are beyond our comprehension. Trinity fits into that for some.

[Firestorm]

"known manifested personages" Wow! We could speculate endlessly about all the unknown manifested personages, on what they were, on what they were called, on what forms they took etc. until we made Kaballists look like rank amateurs.
The fact that God gave us three isn't enough? We can't be content with that?
Is our determination to contradict the "church" no matter how far out on a limb we must go going to cause us to fall into grave error ourselves? I sincerely hope not but at times it sure looks that way to me. Isn't all kinds of bizarre speculation about what isn't in Scripture part of what kick started 1700 years of error in the first place?

[Rick]

Let me say that in most cases, when a Christian staunchly defends the doctrine of Trinity, what he is really passionate for is the deity of Messiah Yeshua.

Mark I think you are right on. We,(the human Race), being worms, are unable to comprehend the depth, width and breadth of Hashem's love and existence. He became just like us in order to communicate, redeem, restore, and explain and His will for humanity. In order to become "like us", He indeed had to "separate" and "humble" Himself to do so. Kinda' like operating something from a remote location. You need communication,(prayer), and control,(Spirit). The Ruach IS Hashem. Touching and communicating with each of us on a personal level. In Yeshua, He gave us a physical presence of Himself,(which as Yeshua said is, "Spirit"), to relate to, interact with and have a personal relationship with. YHWH is one, there is no contradiction here. The problem is our limited understanding of the unknowable, eternal, all consuming Creator of the universe.

Is our determination to contradict the "church" no matter how far out on a limb we must go going to cause us to fall into grave error ourselves?

Amen Sister! Just because we, in our limited understanding, cannot grasp the totality of YHWH; does not mean we should deny or argue about how Hashem has chosen to reveal Himself to us.

[Nachshon]

firestorm said:

"known manifested personages" Wow! We could speculate endlessly about all the unknown manifested personages, on what they were, on what they were called, on what forms they took etc. until we made Kaballists look like rank amateurs.
The fact that God gave us three isn't enough? We can't be content with that?
Is our determination to contradict the "church" no matter how far out on a limb we must go going to cause us to fall into grave error ourselves? I sincerely hope not but at times it sure looks that way to me. Isn't all kinds of bizarre speculation about what isn't in Scripture part of what kick started 1700 years of error in the first place?

I have several problems with the trinity, though. #1, those are not the only known manifestations. #2, when the church tries to limit it to three and only three. #3, when the church tries to expand it to three persons, rather than recognizing it as three aspects. (sheerly coincidental that I had three points. lol.) Now, these are not reasons to make a big deal out of it, except when the third one leads to the verge of polytheism and heresy. It is a slippery slope. I'm not saying everyone falls down it, but it is so easy that it concerns me whenever I see anyone on its verge.

Shalom,
David

[messimom]

I have absolutely nothing knowledgeable to add to this post. In fact, I can be quite astonished by those who feel they know and follow the basics of the enough that all else can be put on the back burner to argue such deep concepts such as pertaining to the intimate knowledge of YHVH and His/Her/Its/Their/Theirs... personality and characteristics.

I know this:

1. YHVH is my Elohim and YHVH is Echad.
2. Yeshua, Son and Savior, become flesh came and died as our atoning sacrifice (and I have acknowledged and accepted that.)
3. YHVH has sent the Ruach HaKodesh as our helper and guide.

These three facts are blunt and obvious and easy to find in any reputable version of the Holy Bible.

Beyond that I know YHVH says " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the L-RD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

and sometimes us puny little humans just have to accept that.

Shalom

Messimom

[Nachshon]

Amein.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Some good dialogue here. Let me throw in my 2 cents.

I believe that the false concept of the trinity came about through mis-interpretation of Jewish teachings. (Big surprise there, right? )

Okay, as you all know, any discussion about the trinity or nature of HaShem is ultimately going to lead to some very deep level conversation.

Kabbalah (which means instruction), teaches that HaShem is one, yet has made himself known to us through three emanations. These are known as the 3 Pillars of the G-d-Head.

They are: Av, Ben, and R'uach

From these 3 Emanations are given to us 10 distinctive qualities. These are also known as the 10 Sefirot and can be found in both Ex. 31:3 & 1 Chronicles 29:11.

Contrast this now with the trinity:
3 Pillars = G-d is 1 Substance with 3 Essences
Trinity = G-d is 3 Substances with 1 Essence

Now let me highlight the key difference between the two:
Trinity = 3 gods all sharing the same essence
3 Pillars = 1 limitless G-d who reveals himself to us in 3 ways


Shalom,
Natanel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Thank you for sharing this Natanel as I think it will be helpful to know that the triune natue of Elohim is not isolated to Christianity, nor simple paganism.

Blake, attacking someone's humility seems, to me, to be a bit strong.

Shalom Blake,

I understand that you were not trying to be malicious, but please be careful about using phrases that indicate that someone is not humble if they do not agree with a particular understanding of yours. Being truly humble as is described of Moshe means submitting one's self to Adonai's . And, on this forum many of us here are trying to find out exactly what that looks like. If someone is deligently seeking this you can hardly claim that someone here is not "humble". Thank you for your cooperation.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Blake]

notzriyehudi said:

Some good dialogue here. Let me throw in my 2 cents.

I believe that the false concept of the trinity came about through mis-interpretation of Jewish teachings. (Big surprise there, right? )

Okay, as you all know, any discussion about the trinity or nature of HaShem is ultimately going to lead to some very deep level conversation.

Kabbalah (which means instruction), teaches that HaShem is one, yet has made himself known to us through three emanations. These are known as the 3 Pillars of the G-d-Head.

They are: Av, Ben, and R'uach

From these 3 Emanations are given to us 10 distinctive qualities. These are also known as the 10 Sefirot and can be found in both Ex. 31:3 & 1 Chronicles 29:11.

Contrast this now with the trinity:
3 Pillars = G-d is 1 Substance with 3 Essences
Trinity = G-d is 3 Substances with 1 Essence

Now let me highlight the key difference between the two:
Trinity = 3 gods all sharing the same essence
3 Pillars = 1 limitless G-d who reveals himself to us in 3 ways


Shalom,
Natanel

I would like to point out that the false mashiakh Jacob Frank was quick to point this out when crying to the Catholic authorities how the Rabbis were persecuting him and his flock. Because of this, all the Bishops made all the Jews in the parish burn their Talmuds.
The Rabbis also believed in the Zohar but were not quick to point out the similarity of Av, Ben, and Ru'akh to the T*r*i*n*i*t*y in the debates the bishops arranged between the Frankists and Rabbis.

In my opinion, mysticism alone is not a sufficient basis for such a belief especially when based on the Zohar a book we know to be forgery.

The Zohar also promotes the belief of reincarnation which I am most certainly sure that Reuel and most everyone here would deride this as heresy. Can't have it both ways.