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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 28, 2007 6:43:36 GMT -8
Hi all,
Didn't know if I should have put this in the Messiah Unveiled thread or not.
I now know that Christian doctrine is most definately not in line with what scripture really says.
'Traditional' Judaism seems to a bit off as well. I don't want to sound like I'm condoning 'Traditional Judaism' so please don't take it that way.
Traditional Judaism seems to have a 'problem' with the 'visibilty' of G-d.
From my study the Sages in their commentaries and such for some reason maybe didn't get it?
Currently in my study I'm in Genesis 32.
I don't know about anyone else here but it's APPARENT that the text says the Jacob wrestled with G-d, physically. Jacob wrestled with a human form.
Seems like the sages try to skip around text like this by saying UNQUOTE, 'That is was an angel' as an example.
But if you read the text , scripture doesn't say so. Scripture says that Jacob physically wrestled for real with a human form.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
Scripture says Jacob seen G-d face to face. G-d man, Messiah.
And the couple verses prior, Messiah is blessing Jacob and changes Jacob's name. Only G-d can do that.
The Aposte's of course had no problem with G-d in human form; G-d man- Yeshua.
I do understand the 'issue' of an infinite G-d dwelling with finite man. But scripture says otherwise. That Adonai dwelt with man in human form in Genesis!
My question is specifically why is it an 'issue' with traditional Judaism not to see that G-d did dwell with man even in Genesis?
Or is it an 'issue' with Traditional Judaism?
I believe that Adonai always planned that He would become human, Messiah.
Isn't G-d awesome! To humble Himself! Deep!
Marc
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 28, 2007 7:19:01 GMT -8
Well, I'm gonna try to stay on the topic here. The Sages definitely understood any incident of G-d revealing himself in the Tanakh in human form to be done through a malak (angel). And unless we are going to start equating the soul of the Mashiach to be an angel, then I would tend to agree with the Sages. The problem is with us not with them. We have been trained to read Scripture through eisigesis instead of exegesis.
Shalom,
Natanel
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 28, 2007 7:48:18 GMT -8
I don't want to get off topic myself but the best way to explain what I'm asking is to post what I've learned so far. Natanel, I do too understand G-d revealing himself in the Tanakh in human form to be done through a malak (angel). I work at the Univ of PA and I happen to work in the Languages department and asked the Professor of Jewish Studies to verify something that I learned about this word since I don't know Hebrew: מַלְאָךְ mal’ak- messenger First as an example Angel with a capitol A in Genesis 16:13Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?”Honestly I don't see anything here other that Hagar spoke and saw the L-RD in human form as it is written in scripture. And the Angel speaks in first person. Now how Angel with a capitol A is used in this passage as an example is differently 'spelled' than מַלְאָךְ In my Stone it's not 'spelled this way'. Unfortunately I can't post how it is written in my Stone but what the difference I'm told is that how Angel is written in these instances it means Angel Adonai that there is no 'of' in it. That if you read it in Hebrew it will 'read' Angel Adonai. Now like I said the person who is doing this study on Messiah Unvelied: Genesis pointed this out. I wanted to verify it and found out for this to be true. That if one says angel of the L-RD it would mean more than one per say, like the L-RD sent an 'angelic being' as an example that would relay the message for Him. Just very interesting. So my question was that although I do understand form of an angel(lowercase a) but and a big but does scripture say it's angel with a lowercase a in Hebrew? Marc Well, I'm gonna try to stay on the topic here. The Sages definitely understood any incident of G-d revealing himself in the Tanakh in human form to be done through a malak (angel). And unless we are going to start equating the soul of the Mashiach to be an angel, then I would tend to agree with the Sages. The problem is with us not with them. We have been trained to read Scripture through eisigesis instead of exegesis. Shalom, Natanel |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 28, 2007 8:03:56 GMT -8
No, it doesn't. Hebrew does not have uppercase and lowercase. And the  repeatedly says "Angel of HaShem." Gen. 16:7, 16:9, 16:10, 16:11 I'd be careful with the Bereans studies. There is some good material on their site, but it has to be sorted through. It's not 100% dead on. Shalom, Natanel |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 28, 2007 9:49:47 GMT -8
Natanel I waas referring to the English translation with a capitol A. Let's see if I can explain it. Here is angel - מַלְאָךְ Compared to in the : מַלְאַךְ They are different from what I'm told. To synopsize from the Professor he said that the first one would be 'angel of' compared to the one in the which would not be 'angel of' but would be angel. Now I looked and the does have מַלְאָךְ when it's talking about angels of the L-rd. But when I look in the for מַלְאַךְ it's referring to the L-rd as if He is the Angel. Angel L-RD. Is there a difference between ?: What are those 'symbols' imply? מַלְאָךְ מַלְאַךְ Marc [quo te author=notzriyehudi board=messianic thread=1172673816 post=1172678636] No, it doesn't. Hebrew does not have uppercase and lowercase. And the repeatedly says "Angel of HaShem." Gen. 16:7, 16:9, 16:10, 16:11 I'd be careful with the Bereans studies. There is some good material on their site, but it has to be sorted through. It's not 100% dead on. Shalom, Natanel[/quote] |
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jo-b
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Post by jo-b on Feb 28, 2007 11:35:15 GMT -8
Shalom, Marc, the 2 words you are showing in Hebrew are both the same word, just written with two different types of vowel points. Both are giving the alef an "ah" sound. They are both used in the independent vowel system. BTW, the was not written with ANY vowel points, but they have been added to many modern interlinear translations for ease of understanding proper pronunciations.  Jo_b |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 28, 2007 13:30:05 GMT -8
Correct!
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 28, 2007 13:52:53 GMT -8
Hi all,
I emailed to get an explanation and this is the response I got.
Genesis 16:7 has malak spelled as you noted from your Stone Chumash.
Yes, it is a noun. It literally means (as the English usually does it)
"Messenger of HaShem." One can only derive from the context whether this is
speaking of a human being, or an angelic being, or a Divine emanation of
some kind.
The key here is deriving from the context.
I think Colossians 1:15 says it best.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I believe the Apostle's didn't have a problem with the infinite G-d, dwelling with finite man. That He would become human. That Human Being: Messiah. And His Name is HaShem.
I believe that is the 'main' opposition with traditional Judaism and 'Messianic' Judaism.
I also believe that Messiah in some instances is in Genesis.
Marc
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Pioneer
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Post by Pioneer on Feb 28, 2007 17:11:41 GMT -8
I believe that is the 'main' opposition with traditional Judaism and 'Messianic' Judaism. Marc It seems like you wish to build upon the Christian wall of separation! Only once, if reliable, did a man call Yeshua, God. Same book different speaker; John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? I am not a "Traditional Jew, but I believe the Bible and it never says Yeshua as anything more than "Sent" in His Name! Like the enlarged and dimminished letters in Hebrew, If not the only begotten Son of God, then a dimminished God! Tanach says He is not a man that He should lie! On the record, I stand with the Bible, not man's commentary! Shalom |
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Post by Rick on Feb 28, 2007 21:56:13 GMT -8
Joh 20:27-29 Then He said to T’oma, “Bring your finger here, and see My hands. And bring your hand and put it into My side – and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And T’oma answered and said to Him, “My Master and my Elohim!”יהושע said to him, “T’oma, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”
[See Heb. 1:8-9]
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 1, 2007 0:06:57 GMT -8
Hi all this thread might be going against the rules of the forum. My only intention was to post questions and comments between Tradtional Judaism and Messianic Judaism. Seems like I answered the questions myself. Traditional Judaism IMHO has had a 'difficult' issue with 'How can an infinite G-d become dwell and have fellowship with finite man?' And I do not wish to 'build a wall (Christian) of separation'. First the apparent 'solution' to me, if you will, was the Tabernacle, then Temple. Then 'fast foward' to the New Testament He tabernacled with us in the flesh. It seems to me 'traditionally' Judaism has had a problem with the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. The Apostle's had no problem with that. Pioneer the 'commentary' I'm relying on is the New Testament. Tough 'read' if you will. The Apostle's refer to the TaNaK alot. Peter in Acts gives a good 'commentary'(if that's the right word): Therefore, let all the house of Israel know, assuredly, that God hath made that Jesus whom ye crucified, to be Lord and Messiah.And I'm not putting Yeshua above Adonai. Marc I believe that is the 'main' opposition with traditional Judaism and 'Messianic' Judaism. Marc It seems like you wish to build upon the Christian wall of separation! Only once, if reliable, did a man call Yeshua, God. Same book different speaker; John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? I am not a "Traditional Jew, but I believe the Bible and it never says Yeshua as anything more than "Sent" in His Name! Like the enlarged and dimminished letters in Hebrew, If not the only begotten Son of God, then a dimminished God! Tanach says He is not a man that He should lie! On the record, I stand with the Bible, not man's commentary! Shalom |
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Post by Pioneer on Mar 1, 2007 9:08:14 GMT -8
"I see! I see! said the Blind man unto his two deaf daughters."
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Let us go out and litter the blind man's path so he stumbles!
Not to debate, but I beg to differ! And "I has spoken!" Mammy Yocham
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 1, 2007 11:42:27 GMT -8
Hi Pioneer can you elaborate on how I wish to build upon the Christian wall of separation? It's apparent to me that the text says that G-d was in human form. In fact it's obvious. When I was a 'Christian' I started to ask questions and prayed and the Spirit led me to the Truth. Now that I'm in the Truth there are questions and issues that I have. It seems that the sages are in 'agreement' if you will that it's impossible for an invisible G-d to be visible. Judaism is in agreement with that too. Christianity takes it to the extreme that G-d is visible. The Apostle's even say that the invisible G-d was made visible in some instances in the . And for me I looked up those instances and more and found it to be true. So I'm in agreement with scripture and the Apostle's. The Apostle's 'validated' it if you will. I'm reading scripture at it's face value. How does the L-rd appear to Abraham?( Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him. It doesn't tell us how He appeared to Abraham but He did. Or Paul in Colossians 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.What were Adam and Eve hiding from? And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. What does it sound like to hear the sound of the L-rd walking? What is His presence? How does the Angel of the L-rd make promises only G-d Himself can promise? The Angel of the L-rd speaks as if He is G-d and accepts worship and is visible. Then to validate it the recipient always says that he/she has seen and/or spoken to G-d. Again scripture at face value doesn't tell us how He appeared but He did. You said: 'Tanach says He is not a man that He should lie!'In the TaNaK G-d appeared to some not all. It doesn't say how He appeared but He did. Then He isn't just a 'man' like how I would view a man. Not like me! Yeshua completely revealed in the New Testament is 100% man and 100% G-d. How could this be? Because G-d appeared in the and we are not told how but He did. And the New Testament validates that. Marc I believe that is the 'main' opposition with traditional Judaism and 'Messianic' Judaism. Marc It seems like you wish to build upon the Christian wall of separation! Only once, if reliable, did a man call Yeshua, God. Same book different speaker; John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? I am not a "Traditional Jew, but I believe the Bible and it never says Yeshua as anything more than "Sent" in His Name! Like the enlarged and dimminished letters in Hebrew, If not the only begotten Son of God, then a dimminished God! Tanach says He is not a man that He should lie! On the record, I stand with the Bible, not man's commentary! Shalom |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 1, 2007 13:53:11 GMT -8
Okay this is starting to get de-railed a bit. Perhaps we could open a new thread that discusses whether or not Mashiach appeared to man in pre-incarnate form.
Shalom,
Natanel
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Post by Pioneer on Mar 1, 2007 16:03:41 GMT -8
Ex.24:9 ¶ Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up,
10 and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.
Holy blood flowed through his veins, but yet he was not all knowing, omnipotent and eternal!
He needed His God! If you don't believe Yeshua, you will not believe me. Jn. 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
I have recomended a writing of Dr Roy Blizzard, "Who is Jesus".
1 John 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.
Romans 11:18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.
Marc, you are like those three thousand, your eyes were opened, that is not true for "All Israel" This won't happen until He comes again.
The rest of Israel has been sacrificed on the alter of the Christian man god throughout history.
I am totally unaware of any Jew who has become jealous of a Christian and his Jesus Christ!
Zechariah 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’"
Not yet!
I do not choose a dimminshed God, but an Exalted Son of God! Sent into the world to save the world. My God sent Yeshua in His Shem! To do the will of God.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Amein.
Shalom
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repeatedly says "Angel of HaShem." Gen. 16:7, 16:9, 16:10, 16:11 
