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Post by Mark on Mar 1, 2007 17:40:02 GMT -8
Pioneer,
The Deity of Messiah has been discussed at length in "the Essence of the Messiah". Please don't derail the current thread to follow that path. I realize there are similarities and that the doctrines closely overlap; but let's go on.
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
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Post by Pioneer on Mar 1, 2007 20:28:27 GMT -8
Pioneer, The Deity of Messiah has been discussed at length in "the Essence of the Messiah". Please don't derail the current thread to follow that path. I realize there are similarities and that the doctrines closely overlap; but let's go on. Done! |
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 2, 2007 2:34:27 GMT -8
Hi all,
Does the TaNaK ever say that G-d is invisible or visible?
Or is it that man has said and determined that it's impossible for G-d to be visible?
How can the Word be with G-d and be G-d and be in the beginning with G-d?
In other words how can the Word be with G-d and is G-d at the same time?
Is it possible that G-d created the earth through the 'bet' in Genesis 1?
In a study it has taken me into Proverbs 8.
I asked myself how what does Proverbs have to do with all this?
Proverbs 8 is about Wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22-36
22 “ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “ Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”
Is it possible that the earth and everything else was created through Wisdom and for Wisdom? Just like it says in John?
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
The Word created and the text says the Word was with G-d as well.
Hmmm. To take the text at face value the Word is G-d. Therefore if the Word is G-d the Word became flesh. G-d with us as Isaiah said.
In verses 32-36 it sounds alot like Yeshua in the New Testament.
A 'mystery' how the Word is G-d and can be with G-d at the same time. But that what the text says. Wisdom/Word was established from everlasting and Wisdom and the Word was a 'master craftsman' and was daily in His delight .Interesting.
And I am not going to even try to figure that out.
I believe that this has alot to do with the appearance of G-d in Genesis. No doubt in Genesis that He appeared. Moses saw His 'hindparts'. Moses couldn't see His face. G-d has a face? G-d has hind parts?
How does Adonai personally and physically work through the process of preparing and executing the burial of His friend Moses?
I believe that these are questions that should be 'addressed'.
Again I also believe that the Apostle's accepted that G-d in certain and specific instances if you will, made Himself appear and visible in some form. Jacob wrestled with someone. Later on in the text Jacob clearly states that he wrestled with G-d. Either Jacob is lying or he actually did wrestle with G-d. Let the text speak for itself.
Does P'shat take 'presedence'?
Marc
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Post by Mark on Mar 2, 2007 5:54:01 GMT -8
HI Marc,
Deuteronomy 4:15 states emphatically that Eloheem is invisible; yet, I agree that this does not limit Him in His ability to manifest Himself to us in whatever form might best fit His agenda with us... even if that's George Burns!
Jacob and Moses both experienced having spoken with Eloheem "face to face". (Genesis 32:30 and 33:11). Sampson's folks were in fear for their life because they had "seen God". (Judges 13:22)
Then, of course, there's the Isaiah 6:1-5 incident and Ezekiel 1:26-28.
John the Baptizer saw the "Spirit of God" descending upon Messiah "as a dove". Some argue that John saw a bird, some suggest that he recognized a supernatural manifestation of the Shekinah who didn't look like a bird; but hovered for a second over the Messiah as a dove lands upon a pirch.
There is very much a Missourian (the show me state) in most of us, as I think most of us could identify with Thomas (the REAL Baptist) (John 20:24-28). Adonai our God knows what we need in order to live out our faith.
Joh 20:29 KJV Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 2, 2007 6:41:12 GMT -8
Hi Mark,
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it say in Deuteronomy 4:15 that they saw no form? Does He actually say he's invisible?
Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
The text to me doesn't say that Adonai doesn't have any form, it just says they didn't see any form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire So at face value Adonai spoke from the midst of the fire.
Does Adonai ever say He has no form? Or does He say you just didn't see any form?
I'll have to dig in but I believe He never says He's invisible or visible.
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth
I did some research about Angel of the L-rd. By reading the text you can derive who is speaking. Gabriel was sent by G-d. It's obvious to me from the text that Gabriel, since the text says that he was sent by G-d, is speaking in the 2nd person. Compared to the text in Genesis. First the text doesn't say that an angel was sent by G-d. Second when the Angel speaks He is speaking as if He is G-d.
The Word was 'before all time'(everlasting), that the Word is G-d and the Word was with G-d. There was no creation of the Word, the Word always was . It appears in John that he possibly might have been referring to Proverbs 8:20-36? They look pretty close. Might be close to a 'remez'? Or it could also be referring to before the 'bet' and in the beginning?
How? I don't know but it says so.
Marc
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 3, 2007 6:27:14 GMT -8
Hi all,
In some study in the TaNaK for some reason I also went to Revelations 19.
This is amazing!
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. .
What's awesome is His name: The Word of G-d
He also had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
Wow!
In the TaNaK there is 'smidgens' of physical form.
In the Brit Hadasha He is completely revealed in physical form.
Marc
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Mar 3, 2007 12:51:52 GMT -8
I would say that this is one thing that the Chri*tians have right. Jews, in general, refuse to think of Father having a physical form, for some reason. I'm not going to speculate, though I do have some thoughts. However, we know that He has a soul. He tells us if we obey His commandments, he will set up his Tabernacle in our midst, and His soul will not aborr us. How did Adam become a living soul? When breath was placed in his body. That is a soul. It is a breathing body. It is the life of a body. That is a soul. This is consistent with Hebraic thinking, that everything goes back to the concrete. That is why Spirit is wind, soul is breath, wisdom is heart, glory is liver, and on and on. I honestly believe that Father had a body as long ago as Sinai, and with Yaaqov, and with Avraham, etc.
Shalom,
Nachshon
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 3, 2007 15:08:18 GMT -8
I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.When He prepared the heavens, I was thereThen I was beside Him as a master craftsmanNachson I believe Messiah was the 'master craftsman. So I believe it was Messiah in Genesis. The Word of G-d in Revelations. In the beginning was the Word... who was beside Him as a 'master craftsman'. The Word was with G-d and is G-d. The Word was always as is the Father. Deep. Marc I would say that this is one thing that the Chri*tians have right. Jews, in general, refuse to think of Father having a physical form, for some reason. I'm not going to speculate, though I do have some thoughts. However, we know that He has a soul. He tells us if we obey His commandments, he will set up his Tabernacle in our midst, and His soul will not aborr us. How did Adam become a living soul? When breath was placed in his body. That is a soul. It is a breathing body. It is the life of a body. That is a soul. This is consistent with Hebraic thinking, that everything goes back to the concrete. That is why Spirit is wind, soul is breath, wisdom is heart, glory is liver, and on and on. I honestly believe that Father had a body as long ago as Sinai, and with Yaaqov, and with Avraham, etc. Shalom, Nachshon
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Mar 4, 2007 16:30:43 GMT -8
DE. 4:15 "Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.
19 And beware lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and worship them and serve them, things which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
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Post by Lady In White on Mar 4, 2007 18:57:01 GMT -8
I just thought I'd interject that, in traditional Christianity, all appearances of "God" in human form in the Old Testament are almost always referred to as "the pre-incarnate Christ".
Gloria
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Post by Yitzchak on Mar 4, 2007 22:05:17 GMT -8
I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.When He prepared the heavens, I was thereThen I was beside Him as a master craftsmanNachson I believe Messiah was the 'master craftsman. So I believe it was Messiah in Genesis. The Word of G-d in Revelations. In the beginning was the Word... who was beside Him as a 'master craftsman'. The Word was with G-d and is G-d. The Word was always as is the Father. Deep. Marc I would say that this is one thing that the Chri*tians have right. Jews, in general, refuse to think of Father having a physical form, for some reason. I'm not going to speculate, though I do have some thoughts. However, we know that He has a soul. He tells us if we obey His commandments, he will set up his Tabernacle in our midst, and His soul will not aborr us. How did Adam become a living soul? When breath was placed in his body. That is a soul. It is a breathing body. It is the life of a body. That is a soul. This is consistent with Hebraic thinking, that everything goes back to the concrete. That is why Spirit is wind, soul is breath, wisdom is heart, glory is liver, and on and on. I honestly believe that Father had a body as long ago as Sinai, and with Yaaqov, and with Avraham, etc. Shalom, Nachshon Marc, I have been doing this teaching from Proverbs 8 for many years, and you will find it even more interesting if you study it in Hebrew. If you can't do this, let me know and I will post my findings. Further, you will also find it very interesting that the Rabbi's teach that it is by and through the  that the world was created. Guess what the proof text is that they use? You got it. They use Proverbs 8 to prove that the was the master workman that existed, and though whom the world was created. In the beginning was the , and the was with G-d, and the was G-d............and the became flesh and tabernacled amongst us.Exciting stuff. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 5, 2007 2:07:59 GMT -8
Hi Yitzchak, Yes it would be much appreciated if you would post your findings. Marc I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.When He prepared the heavens, I was thereThen I was beside Him as a master craftsmanNachson I believe Messiah was the 'master craftsman. So I believe it was Messiah in Genesis. The Word of G-d in Revelations. In the beginning was the Word... who was beside Him as a 'master craftsman'. The Word was with G-d and is G-d. The Word was always as is the Father. Deep. Marc Marc, I have been doing this teaching from Proverbs 8 for many years, and you will find it even more interesting if you study it in Hebrew. If you can't do this, let me know and I will post my findings. Further, you will also find it very interesting that the Rabbi's teach that it is by and through the that the world was created. Guess what the proof text is that they use? You got it. They use Proverbs 8 to prove that the was the master workman that existed, and though whom the world was created. In the beginning was the , and the was with G-d, and the was G-d............and the became flesh and tabernacled amongst us.Exciting stuff. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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Post by Mpossoff on Mar 5, 2007 2:24:04 GMT -8
Hi Gloria, I don't want this to get into a 'I'm right and you are wrong' discussion. At least for me it's apparent according to scripture that there is appearances of human form. I don't believe when scripture makes a referance to an appearance it's 'allegotory'(if that's a word). Does that make someone a 'Christian'? To some they might say that it's being a 'Christian' because for some reason it is a 'Christian view' so to speak? I don't think it's a 'Christian view'. I believe the Apostle's believed it too. By doing a study I learned that there is a 'biblical' definition of 'christian' which really suprised me. In Acts there is referance to 'christians' but if you read it in context it's not referring to 'christianity' as a new 'religion'. It's referring to a 'sect' of observant believers in Messiah. Could be like calling someone a 'Little Messiah' or something like that. The Ruach HaKodesh has really 'opened my eyes' and I thank Adonai in Yeshua's name that He has brought me to where I am at! Marc I just thought I'd interject that, in traditional Christianity, all appearances of "God" in human form in the Old Testament are almost always referred to as "the pre-incarnate Christ". Gloria |
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Post by Pioneer on Mar 5, 2007 7:27:06 GMT -8
In the beginning was the , and the was with G-d, and the was G-d............and the became flesh and tabernacled amongst us.Exciting stuff. Shalom, Yitzchak Berishis bara Elohim et*** Alpha and Omega Alphabet/mind of God/ /Word of God /Living word/Word/ became flesh. (Proverbs 8:22-31) (Berishis Rabbah 1:2) Amein |
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Post by Yitzchak on Mar 5, 2007 8:23:34 GMT -8
מֵעוֹלָם, נִסַּכְתִּי מֵרֹאשׁ-- מִקַּדְמֵי-אָרֶץ. 23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. בְּאֵין-תְּהֹמוֹת חוֹלָלְתִּי; בְּאֵין מַעְיָנוֹת, נִכְבַּדֵּי-מָיִם. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Let's start with these two verses from Proverbs 8. Starting with verse 23 the term set up which is nisachti(spelling). This is from the Hebrew nasakh, which means: To install, to anoint as a King. It is used in scripture in the following way: "I have installed My King upon Zion" It can also refer as a noun to "prince" in the form of naseekh. So, based on this we should properly see this verse as saying: I was installed, anointed as King, Prince from everlasting from the beginning or ever the earth was.Moving on to verse 24 we see the term brought forth, which is here the Hebrew word khalalti. This is from the Hebrew word khool. This Hebrew word can mean to travail, writhe, as in the pain of child birth. It can also mean to suffer torture, or to be wounded. How interesting that we see in these two verses referring to Wisdom, which the Rabbi's speak of as the , as A King being installed, a Prince, who is anointed. In the next verse we see writhing, pain, and suffering, as one who is tortured. In these two verse we see Moshiach Ben Yosef, and Moshiach Ben David. Taking it further to verse 30 in which Marc describes him as a master craftsman, the Hebrew word is actually awmone, which means architect. So, we have a King/Prince that was anointed, and installed. We have this same King/Prince suffering pain, and finally we have a King/Prince who is the architect always beside who? Standing beside HaAvinu is HaBen the everliving, everlasting King/Prince who is the architect of this world, who suffered pain and was tortured. He was daily the delight of HaAvinu, but His delight was in the sons of men.Baruch HaShem, Yitzchak |
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that the world was created. Guess what the proof text is that they use? You got it. They use Proverbs 8 to prove that the 
