Sanil
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Posts: 29
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Post by Sanil on Mar 11, 2009 14:17:35 GMT -8
I appreciate your point and we cannot over-emphasize that our relationship with God is only through Messiah and solely by the extension of His grace toward us. Yet, SCripture also says, "He that turns away his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayers are an abomination." (Proverbs 28:9). That is a very good point, and maybe that's the question. We all agree that we have not earned our place with God by our actions. I know that I still do not live my life perfectly, I am in need of grace. And it took quite awhile for me to get to where I am now. I was very lost and stuck in sin, and then when I started turning my life around I had to deal first with friends and family telling me I was being a legalist and wondering if they were right, which hindered my progress in adding the Law to my life. But I was still in the process and still listening for God's guidance. From my point of view, I assume that most sincere believers are involved in this same process of trying to understand what God asks of them and what they can do to serve him. As has been pointed out at least a few times in this thread, most Christians are brought up with an understanding that the details of the Law have been done away with. Obviously, most of us here disagree. But I think we also need to understand that being brought up with this view makes ours hard to understand. If people come to us seeking information, we should encourage them wherever they are, answer them the best we can, and trust God to lead all of his people to where he wants them to be. I guess my point is that we don't know where people's hearts are. I think the fact that they are posting here means that even though they do not follow the Law, they are willing to hear another perspective. They are open to hearing and learning from other believers who they do not understand or agree with. So let's encourage the process, and not become caught up on details when those details and an accusing attitude from us might turn them away. I left Christianity years ago because I had been accused and judged by Christians, I found my way back because someone treated me as though I was already forgiven and wanted in God's eyes, and by being gentle and accepting enabled me to see where God what God wanted from me. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 11, 2009 17:08:29 GMT -8
Let me share with you a story that Messiah told, recorded for us in Matthew 22. There was a King that gave a wedding banquet... and nobody showed. Being the practical sort, He extended the invitation (once reserved to a few) to anyone that would be willing to come. In verses 11-13, there was fellow that showed up in his street clothes; not properly atired for the event. He was kicked out. Does this message suggest in any way that salvation is not by grace?
Wait for a minute before you answer.
Suppose a fellow comes into your congregation and says that he's saved; but since God created him a homosexual, he sees no inconsistency between his faith and continuing in that lifestyle. Would you have any doubts about his salvation or his sincerity? Most Church goin' folks I know certainly would. Yet, how is that any diiferent than what we have been discussing thus far?
Can you be a thief and a murderer and still be saved? Wel, yes; but to continue in such a lifestyle would certainly give cause to question if any real life-changing experience had occurred.
Paul tells the Ephesian Church, in Epheisans 2 (all gentiles, as far as we know) to stop living like gentiles and join into the commonwealth of Israel. He tells the Thessalonian Church in 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 to "hold fast to the traditions which you have been taught...." What traditions, Christmas?
He tells the Corinthians (ch. 4:16) to be followers (imitators) of him: a Jewish Rabbi who had never committed any transgressions against "the customs of the fathers" (Jewish fathers).
So the question I would pose to those who embrace Christ but reject His Law, are you coming to the banquet in honor of the King or just because you heard there was food?
It is not the person who is struggling with obedience and learning to walk with tiny steps in obedience that I am concerned about. The people that I am concerned for their salvation are those who thumb their noses at God's definition of holiness and righteousness and say, "I know better" or "my beliefs and worship is good enough for the likes of Him."
I have to laugh to myself at the idea that we are condemning anyone when we believe that the Law is the standard for living in sin or according to righteousness. It is the Christian who goes on the attack when we start describing sin according to the Law. We know that we are all sinners. We stand on equal ground. The man who enters our congregation just out of prison for child molestation can hold his head as equals as any of the rest of us. We all know exactly where we stand, and in God's eyes we are no better than He is.
Am I a better person than you because I meet and fellowship on God's appointed day instead of the day man has chosen? Am I better because I don't have pork chops in my freezer? When I stand before the Most High and give an accounting for my life, He's not going to be comparing my freezer to yours. The point is absolutely irrelevant. It's not about being better, it is about being humbly obedient, about failing; but recognizing that failure as a ministration of God's grace; but picking up and striving to walk closer.
When I am invited to the wedding feast, I want to honor Him. I'm going to dress in a way that is appropriate for the occassion, to show my reverence toward Him... regardless how much cake is available. When I come to Lord God of Israel, in humble obedience in gracious acceptance of the sacrificial offering by His Son, the Jewish Messiah, I come in on His terms; not signing the guest book, taking my plate and going back out to my car.
Salvation is by grace through faith in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ if you must) alone... but not in the Jesus Christ who did away with the Law. That's not the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. Salvation is not with the Jesus Christ who creates a separate but equal Church outside of the covenant people of Israel. That's not the Jesus described in the Bible. Salvation isn't about saying a prayer and looking better than most of the community, living up to the equally legalistic but often unspoken rules and regulations of the Church leadership. Jesus wants us to humble ourselves before Him, not the pulpit.
If God and Jesus are the same, then the Law of God and the Law of Christ are also the same. Yeshua said clearly and unequivacably, "If you do not keep my commandments, you are not my disciples." (John 8:31-38)
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 11, 2009 19:08:12 GMT -8
Let me share with you a story that Messiah told, recorded for us in Matthew 22. There was a King that gave a wedding banquet... and nobody showed. Being the practical sort, He extended the invitation (once reserved to a few) to anyone that would be willing to come. In verses 11-13, there was fellow that showed up in his street clothes; not properly atired for the event. He was kicked out. Does this message suggest in any way that salvation is not by grace? Wait for a minute before you answer. Suppose a fellow comes into your congregation and says that he's saved; but since God created him a homosexual, he sees no inconsistency between his faith and continuing in that lifestyle. Would you have any doubts about his salvation or his sincerity? Most Church goin' folks I know certainly would. Yet, how is that any diiferent than what we have been discussing thus far? Can you be a thief and a murderer and still be saved? Wel, yes; but to continue in such a lifestyle would certainly give cause to question if any real life-changing experience had occurred. Paul tells the Ephesian Church, in Epheisans 2 (all gentiles, as far as we know) to stop living like gentiles and join into the commonwealth of Israel. He tells the Thessalonian Church in 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 to "hold fast to the traditions which you have been taught...." What traditions, Christmas? He tells the Corinthians (ch. 4:16) to be followers (imitators) of him: a Jewish Rabbi who had never committed any transgressions against "the customs of the fathers" (Jewish fathers). So the question I would pose to those who embrace Christ but reject His Law, are you coming to the banquet in honor of the King or just because you heard there was food? It is not the person who is struggling with obedience and learning to walk with tiny steps in obedience that I am concerned about. The people that I am concerned for their salvation are those who thumb their noses at God's definition of holiness and righteousness and say, "I know better" or "my beliefs and worship is good enough for the likes of Him." I have to laugh to myself at the idea that we are condemning anyone when we believe that the Law is the standard for living in sin or according to righteousness. It is the Christian who goes on the attack when we start describing sin according to the Law. We know that we are all sinners. We stand on equal ground. The man who enters our congregation just out of prison for child molestation can hold his head as equals as any of the rest of us. We all know exactly where we stand, and in God's eyes we are no better than He is. Am I a better person than you because I meet and fellowship on God's appointed day instead of the day man has chosen? Am I better because I don't have pork chops in my freezer? When I stand before the Most High and give an accounting for my life, He's not going to be comparing my freezer to yours. The point is absolutely irrelevant. It's not about being better, it is about being humbly obedient, about failing; but recognizing that failure as a ministration of God's grace; but picking up and striving to walk closer. When I am invited to the wedding feast, I want to honor Him. I'm going to dress in a way that is appropriate for the occassion, to show my reverence toward Him... regardless how much cake is available. When I come to Lord God of Israel, in humble obedience in gracious acceptance of the sacrificial offering by His Son, the Jewish Messiah, I come in on His terms; not signing the guest book, taking my plate and going back out to my car. Salvation is by grace through faith in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ if you must) alone... but not in the Jesus Christ who did away with the Law. That's not the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. Salvation is not with the Jesus Christ who creates a separate but equal Church outside of the covenant people of Israel. That's not the Jesus described in the Bible. Salvation isn't about saying a prayer and looking better than most of the community, living up to the equally legalistic but often unspoken rules and regulations of the Church leadership. Jesus wants us to humble ourselves before Him, not the pulpit. If God and Jesus are the same, then the Law of God and the Law of Christ are also the same. Yeshua said clearly and unequivacably, "If you do not keep my commandments, you are not my disciples." (John 8:31-38) All right....I think I finally understand your position better. I don't agree with it, but this does answer my question about what Messianic Jews think about Christians. It seems as though you really do regard Christianity as a completely different religion than Messianic Judaism, and that you consider the Jesus we worship to be a different Jesus than the one that you do. I can respect your viewpoint. You see living in a life of homosexuality, murder, stealing, and not keeping the dietary laws all to be sin. I agree that living a life of homosexuality, murder, and stealing are sins, but I disagree with the food laws. We're not going to be able to reconcile our views, but now I do have a clearer understanding of why you specifically feel the way you do about Christians. Your example of "not living like gentiles" cannot quite be transferred to today's Christians because we're something else. What I mean is we don't live like the gentiles back then did, before they came to Christ. Those of us who are believers in Christ do not live like this: "gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts." And we don't live like this either: GAL 5:19 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." There is a difference between the gentiles that Paul refers to in his letters and Christians. This is not to say that any Christian is perfect. No one is except Jesus. However, those of us who really do love Him don't live our lives the way that Paul describes gentiles living, and we don't live in order to gratify the sinful nature. God has changed our lives. We're something else. Call us what you will, but please note that we too are led by the Spirit. Not everyone who identifies as Christian does, but there are some of us who are led by Him and do know God. What are we exactly? It is really hard to put a label on it. I can call myself a Christian, but not everyone would agree that I am a Christian. Some Roman Catholics say that only Catholics are Christian. So, according to some of them, I'm not Christian. I can claim the evangelical title for myself, but that term is getting corrupted to mean something it did not originally mean. (It's now taking a very political meaning, and a lot of TV preachers and people in the extreme prophetic are applying this meaning to themselves) I could say that I'm a theologically orthodox Christian, but then again, the Roman Catholics would tell me I'm not, because I don't agree with certain Roman Catholic teachings (infallibility of the Pope, Mary's sinlessness, that the Pope is Jesus' representative on earth, etc.) 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to me seems to be talking about holding to the gospel and faith in Jesus. Again, please understand that we are not saying that God got rid of the entire law. We just don't see how certain laws are applicable to us today, as Christians. We do not believe we are required to live by the dietary laws. We're not saying that none of the laws in the Old Testament apply to us, and we're not saying that there is no longer any law whatsoever. And yes, we do want to honor Christ as King. I apologize if this has not been made clear in my posts so far, but we do want to honor Him in our hearts. Our way of going about doing this is different from yours, though. You wrote: This is our heart as well. We just approach this differently. Again, we too want to honor God in whatever way that we can. I agree with you. What you said here is not what salvation is about. |
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Post by adam7gur on Mar 11, 2009 21:58:59 GMT -8
The law is to be kept , the way the Messiah tought us!What good is the circumsission of the flesh if I there is not a circumsission of the heart?
The Messiah is the incarnated Word of God,in other words He is the Law in flesh because the entire law is pointing out at Him from the beginning to the end of it. And He dwelt among us,in other words ,the Law dwelt among us ,alive. And how many times did He pointed out that the law was not kept as it should?Remember the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector!The first one did as instructed by the law and the second one just confessed that he is a sinner and begged for forgiveness!Which one would you like to be?
Start searching the law in the very centre of it.
The Messiah was killed because He made Himself equal to God,yet it is written'' I said,you are gods''!
The Lord Messiah said ''Jerusalem Jerusalem,you will not see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord''.
Do you know who is he who comes to you O Jeruslaem in the name of the Lord?Could it be me?
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 12, 2009 4:46:23 GMT -8
I also want to say that I have read various threads on these forums, and I have some serious concerns. One person made a comment that they would rather die then to see a non-Jew in the temple. I realize that not everyone on these forums agreed, thankfully, but how many Messianic Jews do think this way? How many think that because I'm Christian (my definition of it and not the Roman Catholic definition) that I'm dirty and unclean? Some people on this forum have said that Jesus is only for Jews, and that us non-Jews cannot have Him. This would imply that Jesus has nothing to do with us non-Jews, and that He didn't die for us, and that we have no hope of salvation, and that His blood can't cover us. Also, there was another post that implied that those who do not keep the dietary laws are pagans. I find this deeply offensive in that for many Christians the word "pagan" means someone who worships nature and engages in witchcraft and other things. While of course you may use whatever terms you wish to describe us, I would ask you to please consider using another term for Christians. I do understand that Messianic Jews most likely have a different definition of "pagan" than Christians do, and very likely do consider Christians to be pagans. However, in calling us pagans, you're coming across to us as denying that Jesus saves us too. Maybe some Messianic Jews really do not think that Jesus saves non-Jews. from wikipedia: As a Christian I've very much opposed to such things. We reject the things that are believed by the people who wrote the following website: www.witchesway.net/links/paganism/beliefs.htmlOther websites that talk about pagan beliefs and how Christians view these beliefs: www.apologeticsindex.org/a84.htmlwww.apologeticsindex.org/w02.htmlwww.apologeticsindex.org/326-pagan-deitieswww.religionnewsblog.com/21222/wicca-paganismwww.apologeticsindex.org/p06.htmlwww.apologeticsindex.org/171-shamanismwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W0405.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W0505.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W0605.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W0705.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W0805.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W1005.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA3W1105.pdfwww.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA4W1205.pdfWe reject the occult. We believe it is evil. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 12, 2009 6:25:17 GMT -8
There's an old Jewish joke that asks, "Why did God create the Mormons?" The answer is that He wanted the Christians to know how the Jews felt. I understand that you are uncomfortable. Yet, from our perspective, darkness should become uncomfortable when exposed to light. The Jesus that you "believe", if He is described in the Bible, commanded anyone who followed Him to follow His teachings. He taught  observant Judaism. In Matthew 28:19-20, He commands His disciples to teach all nations (all goyim/gentiles) all things whatsoever that He had commanded them. "All things whatsoever" means leave nothing out. Your position is quite selective in how you apply His teachings, "this no longer applies to us" is defiant rejection of His very words. If you don't recognize the biblical definitions of unclean but are scandalized by those who do, that's not my problem. If you are concerned about being seen as "unclean" my personal recommendation would be to get cleaned up! It is the Scripture which defines sin and righteousness, not me. Your argument is that you reject the Bible and have re-inserted your own definition as a standard of righteousness. Everyone is welcome in the Kingdom of God: Jew and gentile alike. It is in the Old Testament that Adonai declares, "My house shall be a house of prayer for all people." Yet, He also says, "No uncircumcised person shall enter the Sanctuary of God." Salvation is free to all; but the relationship is on His terms. You can't come in and re-arrange the furniture to suit your preference. I have to scratch my head at your coming into this forum and find yourself suddenly surprised that you are offended. We offend a lot of people; but so did Messiah, and so does His Word. If you're desire is to go through life wiothout being confronted with offensive stuff, I suggest that you leave your Bible closed and just listen to your pastor teach on Sunday morning. But, if you want to have a deep and personal relationship with God, get used to being scandalized, being spiritually and emotionally ripped apart, then lovingly healed by His Spirit. This is what it comes down to: we believe the Bible is true and applicable to us, without reservation, without amendment, regardless of who we are (Jew or gentile). You do not. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 12, 2009 7:19:17 GMT -8
There's an old Jewish joke that asks, "Why did God create the Mormons?" The answer is that He wanted the Christians to know how the Jews felt. I understand that you are uncomfortable. Yet, from our perspective, darkness should become uncomfortable when exposed to light. The Jesus that you "believe", if He is described in the Bible, commanded anyone who followed Him to follow His teachings. He taught observant Judaism. In Matthew 28:19-20, He commands His disciples to teach all nations (all goyim/gentiles) all things whatsoever that He had commanded them. "All things whatsoever" means leave nothing out. Your position is quite selective in how you apply His teachings, "this no longer applies to us" is defiant rejection of His very words. If you don't recognize the biblical definitions of unclean but are scandalized by those who do, that's not my problem. If you are concerned about being seen as "unclean" my personal recommendation would be to get cleaned up! It is the Scripture which defines sin and righteousness, not me. Your argument is that you reject the Bible and have re-inserted your own definition as a standard of righteousness. Everyone is welcome in the Kingdom of God: Jew and gentile alike. It is in the Old Testament that Adonai declares, "My house shall be a house of prayer for all people." Yet, He also says, "No uncircumcised person shall enter the Sanctuary of God." Salvation is free to all; but the relationship is on His terms. You can't come in and re-arrange the furniture to suit your preference. I have to scratch my head at your coming into this forum and find yourself suddenly surprised that you are offended. We offend a lot of people; but so did Messiah, and so does His Word. If you're desire is to go through life wiothout being confronted with offensive stuff, I suggest that you leave your Bible closed and just listen to your pastor teach on Sunday morning. But, if you want to have a deep and personal relationship with God, get used to being scandalized, being spiritually and emotionally ripped apart, then lovingly healed by His Spirit. This is what it comes down to: we believe the Bible is true and applicable to us, without reservation, without amendment, regardless of who we are (Jew or gentile). You do not. The problem that I see with this is that whenever the gospel is laid out in the New Testament, I don't find the biblical authors laying out orders for people to follow all of these laws. If dietary laws and so forth were important aspects of the Christian life, then it seems to me that the biblical authors should have put this in very clear terms. "Believers in Jesus MUST follow all of the dietary laws." It seems to me that the people in the New Testament would be confronting anyone who did not follow the food laws, and tell them that they needed to follow them. It seems to me that if it were such a big issue that Jesus should have made a clear comment in regard to this to His disciples. "Make sure that any one who follows Me follows the food laws." If this were the case, then there would be no argument about this. All Christians would be following the dietary laws. We would be very dependent on following every letter of the law. That would be one of our top priorities. Yet, what I find when I read the Bible is Jesus emphasizing the spirit behind the law, telling people to love God above all else and telling them to love other people. If everything can be summed up in these two laws, and we live by the Spirit, then don't we meet what the law is designed to do? And if we are in Christ, then isn't He our righteousness anyway, and doesn't it mean that no one is righteous apart from Him? I do not consider myself to be unclean because I am in Christ and He makes me clean. It does not make any difference that I am not Jewish. I can't be Jewish, and nothing in the New Testament says that I must be Jewish in order to be accepted by Jesus. I don't reject the Bible, and my basis of righteousness and sin is also based on the Bible, but we have different interpretations. It's my understanding that relationship with God comes through Christ, and that it is not dependent on what my ancestry is. To say that salvation is free to all, but only Jews can have relationship with God puts up a barrier between Jewish believers in Jesus and non-Jewish believers in Jesus. It also denies all of us non-Jews testimonies about what God has done in our lives. It denies that we can know God and experience Him. What bothers me is that there is so much that separates believers from each other. I thought we were all supposed to be one in Jesus Christ. Yet there are so many things that divide us. Some Roman Catholics claim that because I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm not fully accepted by God. KJV only Christians claim that I'm not saved because of the Bible translations that I use. Some people who don't like contemporary worship music say that I can't be saved because I'm in a church that uses contemporary worship music. Now on here, I'm hearing that I can't have a relationship with God because I'm not Jewish. Isn't reality found in Jesus Christ and not any of these other things? Why can't we all just get along and glorify Christ together? No, my desire in life is not to go through it without ever being confronted or offended. However, when my own relationship with God is called into question just because I am not Jewish....it is like everything that God has done in my life is being denied by individuals who do not actually know me and are simply making assumptions about me, based on my status as a Christian. My reaction is the exact same as those who tell me I'm not saved because I'm not Roman Catholic, because my church sings contemporary worship music, or because I don't use the KJV of the Bible. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 12, 2009 7:30:52 GMT -8
Incest, beastiality and canabalism are nowhere specifically condemned in the New Testament either.
Paul said that "All Scripture is proftable..."
James said "if you fail to keep one point of the Law you are guilty of all of it" (so I suppose if you only keep some of it then you're not guilty of any of it)
Messiah said that if you reject even the least of the commandments you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Actually, uncleanness is specifically listed in Galatians 5:19 as ungodliness, "that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 12, 2009 9:01:10 GMT -8
Incest, beastiality and canabalism are nowhere specifically condemned in the New Testament either. Paul said that "All Scripture is proftable..." James said "if you fail to keep one point of the Law you are guilty of all of it" (so I suppose if you only keep some of it then you're not guilty of any of it) Going by the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law.....incest, beastiality and canablism go against loving others in the way that God wants people to love others. It is not acting in their best interest, and is not done from a real motive of love. Also, if you look at what Paul said about sexual immorality, I would think that incest and beastiality would fit under that definition. Galatians 5:19 in the NASB 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. I quoted the NASB because I have heard that it is supposedly one of the most accurate translations. I don't know Greek. We need someone who knows biblical Greek to explain what "impurity" here means. When I think of "impure" I think of things that are not of God -- like pornography. I don't view it in terms of food, and I certainly don't view it in terms of a person's ancestry. It's talking about deeds here, or actions that people do. It's like how people act with the sinful nature. Because these things are then contrasted with the fruit of the Spirit, and what it looks like to live by the Spirit. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. |
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Post by adam7gur on Mar 12, 2009 9:39:24 GMT -8
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Are we to trust all of the Bible,or just parts of it?
Are you better than those who wrote this?
I see no point of me staying here anymore.Thank you for the hospitality,but I will not stay where I am not welcomed.I shake the dust of my shoulder and walk my way!
May God,bless you!
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Post by Mark on Mar 12, 2009 9:51:53 GMT -8
So, you agree with the Bible if it already conforms with your preconceived understanding of righteousness. There are cultures that believe these things are perfectly natural and would be shocked that you consider them in any way abnormal.
The Whoopoo people of Brazil, eat the flesh of their recently departed loved ones so as to preserve the essence of their beings. Backwoods cultures of the Southern Ozarks consider pedophelia, particularly with one's own children a natural expression of love and affection.
If we define what is sin and righteousness according to our own standard and cultural understanding, then pretty much anything is acceptable... provided it is done "in love".
Messiah said that loving God with all of your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself "sums up" all of the Law and the prophets. There is a huge difference between "summing up" and "superceding".
Is the spirit of the Law to do whatever we think that is right regardless of what the Scriptures say or is the spirit of the Law to personally apply it to my own life and circumstances?
Specifically, the word "impure" or "uncleanness" in the Greek text is the word "akathartos" and is consistently used to refer to those things which are described in Deuteronommy 14 and Leviticus 11 (among other things). Applying your own definitions to the words that are being used by this Jewish Rabbi is not following his teachings.
It is unfortunate that Adam should choose the text he did in order to justify the position that he has as his departing position, in verse 24, acknowledging that the gentiles will be taught "Moses and the prophets inthe synagogue every Sabbath day."
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 12, 2009 13:52:45 GMT -8
So, you agree with the Bible if it already conforms with your preconceived understanding of righteousness. There are cultures that believe these things are perfectly natural and would be shocked that you consider them in any way abnormal. The Whoopoo people of Brazil, eat the flesh of their recently departed loved ones so as to preserve the essence of their beings. Backwoods cultures of the Southern Ozarks consider pedophelia, particularly with one's own children a natural expression of love and affection. If we define what is sin and righteousness according to our own standard and cultural understanding, then pretty much anything is acceptable... provided it is done "in love". Messiah said that loving God with all of your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself "sums up" all of the Law and the prophets. There is a huge difference between "summing up" and "superceding". Is the spirit of the Law to do whatever we think that is right regardless of what the Scriptures say or is the spirit of the Law to personally apply it to my own life and circumstances? Specifically, the word "impure" or "uncleanness" in the Greek text is the word "akathartos" and is consistently used to refer to those things which are described in Deuteronommy 14 and Leviticus 11 (among other things). Applying your own definitions to the words that are being used by this Jewish Rabbi is not following his teachings. It is unfortunate that Adam should choose the text he did in order to justify the position that he has as his departing position, in verse 24, acknowledging that the gentiles will be taught "Moses and the prophets inthe synagogue every Sabbath day." each of those things you named are not acting in other people's best interests, and therefore are not loving. Incest hurts everyone involved. So does beastiality and cannabilism. These things are just plain wrong, and they are perversions. Yes, these are laws in the Old Testament, and yes Christians still consider these actions to be sinful. No, these things are not specifically mentioned by name in the New Testament, but they are covered under what Jesus said about loving others, and what Paul says. And no, I'm not saying that anything is acceptable as long as it is done in love. What I mean when I say "out of love" is talking about God's standard of love, not my own. No, my position is not that we can do whatever we think that is right regardless of what the Scriptures say. The emphasis of Galatians 5 is not about food or dietary laws. I would accept that that was what he was talking about if that is what he was talking about throughout that part of Galatians. It does not seem to me that that is the case. I don't see the dietary laws being emphasized in the New Testament letters. I see Jesus being emphasized. I think that there would be a huge section in the NT about dietary laws if everyone had to keep them in order to prove salvation. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 12, 2009 16:25:42 GMT -8
Actually, the dietary laws are not emphasized in the Old Testament, and living in obedience as a new creation is emphasized in both Testaments. Take a look at this Old Testament passage: He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8 KJV) Does this in any way suggest that the dietary laws or any other command of is not valid, necessary or applicable? Yet, it was spoken to the Jewish people before Messiah came to redeem them. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 12, 2009 16:45:46 GMT -8
Actually, the dietary laws are not emphasized in the Old Testament, and living in obedience as a new creation is emphasized in both Testaments. Take a look at this Old Testament passage: He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8 KJV) Does this in any way suggest that the dietary laws or any other command of is not valid, necessary or applicable? Yet, it was spoken to the Jewish people before Messiah came to redeem them. As I have said before, if people want to follow the dietary laws, go for it. I'm not going to stop anyone from doing so. The problem I have is when people tell me I HAVE to follow these laws when God has not laid it on my heart to do so or told me to, and I do not see God commanding me to. Yes, He gave commandments in the Old Testament regarding this, but my interpretation of certain passages in the New Testament seem to suggest that it is not necessary for a Christian to follow these dietary laws because God has made all foods clean. If food were such a big deal, then wouldn't the Holy Spirit convince all of us Christians that we needed to follow these food laws? Wouldn't God show this necessity to those who were on fire for Him and had a close personal walk with Him? Yet there are so many of us who He has not laid this on our hearts. Some people on this site would argue that is because we really aren't saved. But if salvation is by grace through faith, and the fruits of the Spirit (mentioned in Galatians 5) are evident, and their entire life reflects a total devotion to God, then who is anyone to question their salvation? I know of a pastor who grew up Jewish and came to Christ when he was in his late teens. In his church he doesn't preach that Christians need to follow all of the food laws. He also gives sermons on Christmas and Easter, and he holds worship services on Sunday. I also know that he has a very deep love for Jesus Christ and he preaches with passion. He truly has a heart for people. Are you going to question his salvation too, even though he is by definition a Messianic Jew (though not part of the Messianic Jewish movement)? I have no clue whether or not he keeps the dietary laws, but he personally does, he doesn't preach it. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 13, 2009 3:24:52 GMT -8
How do you know that the Spirit you follow is the Spirit of God? Is it because you were taught so by your pastors and teachers? Muslim suicide bombers are taught the same by their clerics and elders. Is it because you've experienced success and joy from obedience? Mormon missionaries can tell you the same thing. Is it because you've had wonderful emotional highs in your "spiritual interactions" with it? A Greatful Dead concert will have revellers who can relate exactly the same "spirit".
How about because what the Spirit says and teaches lines up consistently with the written Word of God, that He willnot lead you into temptation of give you confidence in what the Bible clearly and consistently defines as sin. He will lead you into all truth.
How can Christians (not all, but those like yourself) claim to be following the Spirit of God when they reject the commandments of God? It is more likely they are following a different spirit.
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observant Judaism. In Matthew 28:19-20, He commands His disciples to teach all nations (all goyim/gentiles) all things whatsoever that He had commanded them. "All things whatsoever" means leave nothing out. Your position is quite selective in how you apply His teachings, "this no longer applies to us" is defiant rejection of His very words.
