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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 9, 2009 10:40:19 GMT -8
Kids are enthralled with park brownies. You may have never heard of them referred to as such. They are brown, smell kind of funny, sometimes hard and crusty, sometimes soft and gooey. You often find them in the grass at the park. And if you've guessed by now, they're disgusting, coming from the latter end of a dog. Kids don't seem to fin any problem with them at all. I mean, what's wrong with them. They are moldable. You can draw with them. There are all sorts of fabulous applications, not to mention the curious responses they get from the adults around. It is the same way with God's Laws. We don't necessarily see the problem with them; but God does. Do we believe God more than we believe our own experiences or do we reject His Words because we don't understand their relevance? I'm not perfect and I am more guilty of sin today than I was probably five minutes ago. But the difference is that I define sin based upon God's Word, not on whether I consider His Word applicable to me or not. But I don't understand why God would require me, as a Christian, to follow the dietary laws. I understand why He created them in the first place -- because a long time ago, if things were not cooked properly, people could get certain diseases and die. I see Him as protecting His people with these laws. But in today's time, people know how to prepare foods so that people don't get sick. If we thank God for the food that we receive, then whether we eat certain foods or not does not matter. I don't understand why He would have a problem with me eating foods, as it makes no difference in my witness for Christ. It does not hurt anyone else, and I don't see how it hurts Him either....since He created the foods to begin with. It seems to me that in the New Testament He has made all foods clean anyway. Again, I make no claim to being Jewish. Eating or not eating certain foods does not matter in my pursuit of Christ. Because for me, it is He that matters and not foods. PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. As John Piper, my favorite Christian author says: "God is most glorified in you when you are most satisfied in Him." |
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Post by Mark on Mar 9, 2009 14:22:02 GMT -8
Actually, that's wrong. He didn't say not to eat unclean meats because it is healthy but because it is unholy (Leviticus 11:45).
The point is that God says not to do it, not to justify why it is okay to disobey Him. That's the difference.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 9, 2009 17:59:30 GMT -8
Actually, that's wrong. He didn't say not to eat unclean meats because it is healthy but because it is unholy (Leviticus 11:45). The point is that God says not to do it, not to justify why it is okay to disobey Him. That's the difference. If the issue is over whether or not it is holy, then what happens if God makes it holy? What about these verses: AC 10:9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." AC 10:14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." AC 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."AC 10:16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. RO 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 1CO 10:23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 1CO 10:25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 1CO 10:27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?1CO 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. According to these verses, it doesn't appear that I HAVE to follow the dietary laws. It seems that God has made everything clean. As long as my eating this stuff does not cause anyone to stumble or hurt their walk with Christ, there is no issue with my eating it. The point is that God is to be glorified. I do not claim to be a Messianic Jew, and I am not even Jewish in background at all. I do not know any Jews in real life, and so I am not causing any Jews to stumble. If I were invited to a Jewish house to eat a meal, I would not take along something they couldn't eat and eat it in front of them. That would not be acting in love. Again, I appeal to the fact that my life as a Christian is supposed to be focused on God, not on whether or not I eat certainfoods. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 9, 2009 18:08:44 GMT -8
You should take a look on the thread where we discuss Acts 10. Notice that God never commands Peter to eat what is "unclean". He rather distinguishes between "unclean" and "common". That which is common can be cleansed and eaten. That which is unclean is just plain nasty.
Think of it this way, if you just want to focus on God, it doesn't matter what you do. If it is about you feeling good about yourself and feeling like you are doing your best to give the best that you have to Him, then it is what you think and what your opinion is that counts. However, if you want to walk in fellowship with Him, if you want to be close in your relationship with Him, maybe you should consider what He wants and what He desires?
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 9, 2009 18:36:21 GMT -8
You should take a look on the thread where we discuss Acts 10. Notice that God never commands Peter to eat what is "unclean". He rather distinguishes between "unclean" and "common". That which is common can be cleansed and eaten. That which is unclean is just plain nasty. Think of it this way, if you just want to focus on God, it doesn't matter what you do. If it is about you feeling good about yourself and feeling like you are doing your best to give the best that you have to Him, then it is what you think and what your opinion is that counts. However, if you want to walk in fellowship with Him, if you want to be close in your relationship with Him, maybe you should consider what He wants and what He desires? I think that God is interested in where people's hearts are....which to me says that if a person wants to give the best that they have to offer to God, then that is what God requires of people in worship. If all I have to offer Him is all I have to give, which would be my life, then it seems to me that that is right where God wants me. That seems to be His heart throughout the entire Bible. I believe that God wants to be first in people's hearts, and that He wants a relationship with us. In this case, I believe that what He wants and what He desires here match what I've been saying -- He wants to be first in our hearts, and He wants us to give our whole selves to Him....in other words, to surrender our entire lives and everything that we are to Him so that He can then take our lives and do what He wants with them. So if you do not think that this is what He wants and desires for me, then what do you think He wants and desires for me? Is it that you think He wants me to follow the dietary laws? |
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Post by Mark on Mar 10, 2009 3:37:58 GMT -8
I think you're exactly right. Yet what I'm hearing you say is, God, You can have everything... except my diet, except my style and chosen day for worship, except my holidays, except the way I manage my tithes, except my definition of what it means to be :God's chosen people", except my understanding of who You are, except my status and relationships in my community, etcetra and so on.... You feel like you are giving God your best; and that is to a degree commendable. Except it's not what He is asking for. Remember what was told to King Saul, that to obey is better than to sacrifice. What I have consistently found in the Church, that meets on Sunday and patterns itself according to the Roman civil structure as opposed to the biblical one, is that you are encouraged to give of yourself to God, not even taking a moment wonder what it is that He truly desires from you; but since it is what you find as right and good; He must also (like the child in the park offering brownies). The difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism (understanding this to be my own interpretation of such terms) is that we desire to be molded into His image and learn to walk in His ways, while the Church redefines or ignores the vast majority of how He has described His image and ways because it would force them to change, to admit they are wrong about some things. I was asked by a Church leader some years ago about my position on unclean meats. He happened to raise pigs as a hobby. He said, "Do you think eating unclean meats is sin?" I responded with what Paul clearly tells us in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7, that by the Law is the knowledge of sin. He was outraged. "You think I'm a sinner?!" he shouted. Hold on. Aren't you? What I have so consistently found is that most folks in the Church don't really think thatthey are. They do what is expected of them and as long as they have good standing in the Church, they feel they must have a great relationship with God. But that's not the story of the rivh man and the publican, nor the story of the unclean woman who washed Messiah's feet with her hair. Here's the point. When we accept God's definition of sin and righteousness and live our lives to please Him in every aspect of it, knowing the Law and recognizing each point where we screw up and find ourselves once again asking for forgiveness and once again receiving it, we love much. Yet, when we define sin and righteousness on our own terms, thinking that we're really not all that bad, we resultingly love little. There is a direct correlation in the Bible between lovelessness and lawlessness. Just as their is a direct payoff in relationship with obedience. The  touches every aspect of your life, from the time you wake up in the morning, to when you go to the bathroom, brush your teeth in the mirror, how you get dressed, what you have for breakfast, where you go, what you do, who you meet, what you say to them and how you say it. Learning to live according to is not setting a boundary of regulations to allow me to look better than everyone else. More accurately, it reveals more clearly how sinful I really am. Yet to the extent that I find myself walking in obedience, is drawing me more and more intimately into the presence of our Lord and King in everything I do and everything I say. If that's not something you want to be a part of, I don't have any problem with that; but back to the original question, it should cause me to question the legitimacy of your salvation. I can't say that you are or that you are not saved; but when you are shown how we are invited to walk in intimacy through God's Law (take a look at Psalm 119), and you say, "No thanks, I'm as close to God as I want to be." Wouldn't that cause you to wonder? |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 10, 2009 5:01:31 GMT -8
I think you're exactly right. Yet what I'm hearing you say is, God, You can have everything... except my diet, except my style and chosen day for worship, except my holidays, except the way I manage my tithes, except my definition of what it means to be :God's chosen people", except my understanding of who You are, except my status and relationships in my community, etcetra and so on.... Everyone still has to work at giving God part of their lives, and to surrender to Him more and more. I have no problem with believers who wish to follow all the laws in the Old Testament, as long as they are doing it because they want to, and not because they feel they have to in order to find favor with God or as long as they don't feel that they have to do so in order to keep their salvation. Whether or not someone wants to follow all of these laws is between them and God. It cannot be forced on someone. I'm not going to follow the food laws unless I feel led to by God. Currently I do not. As for the day of worship....I try to worship God every day anyway. It is just that the day that my church holds services is Sunday. Why? Because it is in honor of the day that Jesus rose from the dead. As for style of worship, I really don't think it matters to God the style of worship that a church has....just as long as the focus is on Him and people are meeting with Him. People from around the world use different styles in their worship of Him. (And no, I'm not talking about different religions here -- I firmly believe that Jesus is the only way. What I'm talking about is different Christian styles of worship). For instance, I've heard that people in different parts of the world have different concepts about time. Things start around a certain time, and last however long they feel like making it last. Some people like to clap their hands in worship. Some people like hymns and a more quiet kind of worship. Some people like worship bands while others like choirs. I think that as long as people are meeting with Him, it doesn't matter. I've been told by other Christians that I'm going to hell because my church uses instruments in the worship service. It's not about worship style. As long as people are worshiping God in spirit and in truth, it does not matter. Now there are forms of "worship" that I do have a problem with. Some in the extreme prophetic have decided that the point of worship is not to meet with God, but rather to create a trance like environment, so they try to put people into a trance. I also have a problem when people try to use things like guided imagery, kundalini (don't know if I spelled that right) "awakenings, or any such religious related experience like this. When the point of worship no longer is to meet with God and glorify Him and bring all that we are to Him.....when the focus shifts from Him to our trying to have a spiritual experience and trying to get a spiritual high, then that becomes a problem. As for holidays -- the way that I celebrate Christmas and Easter is completely about Jesus. Christmas for me is only about the celebration of Jesus' birth. Easter is about Jesus' bodily resurrection and a celebration of that. It's not about the secular concepts of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or anything like that. I worship God and only God during these holidays. He is my focus during these times. And yes, various people have condemned me for this, telling me I was going to hell because I celebrate Christmas and Easter. I had a discussion with some people on MySpace about it last year. As I told them, and I'll tell you here -- Christmas and Easter cause me to worship God and be in awe of Him. However, if some people are so bothered by a particular aspect of Christmas or Easter, and they are so bothered by it that they cannot worship God, then those particular people should not celebrate those holidays. If these holidays pull you away from God, then don't celebrate them. If they pull you closer to Him, then by all means, it is fine to celebrate them. When I was having this discussion with them, I made a list of various sermons that my pastors have given at Christmas and Easter time. I'm willing to make these sermons available to anyone who would be interested here as well. The main reason I did this was to show that it is possible for a believer to really get something out of Christmas and Easter, and that God can most definitely be glorified at these times. It's all perspective here. What did you mean by this part? I believe that tithing is biblical, and the church that I go to encourages tithing. What did you mean by my definition of what it means to be God's chosen people? What did you mean by my understanding of who God is? Everyday my faith grows and everyday my relationship with God grows, and in this process I grow to understand God better. What did you mean in regard to my relationship and status within the community? I wish to glorify God in all that I do, and it is my hope that this is reflected in all that I actually do. I hope other people see it. God is always challenging me to grow and challenges me in how I relate to other people, how I live my life. When I was in college my Christian friends told me that they could definitely see God working in my life. I don't think I'm being closed off to God in this area of my life. As always, He has a lot of work to do on me. I do hope to reflect the fruits of the Spirit to others that I encounter. When He asks me to do something, I do try to obey. But you and I are thinking about this in different ways. I do seek God's will out for my life, and I do try to get His perspective on a given situation that I encounter. I do ask Him what His desires are for me. I know what He has shown me so far as being right and good. It is to that that I am obedient. I know what it is like to be asked by Him to do something, I know what it is like to be led by Him, and I know what it is like when He directs me in a certain direction. So do I as a Christian want to be molded into His image and learn to walk in His ways....but our definitions of what this means differ. If He convicts me of something or leads me in a certain direction, then that is what I rely on. For me what it means to walk in His ways is to be relying on Him in my day to day life. He does change my life, but this happens in the context of having a personal relationship with Him. Everyone is a sinner, and we all struggle with sin. It is true that a lot of people do not want to think of themselves as sinners. That is why so many pastors no longer want to talk about any sort of sin at all. They don't want to make anyone angry or offend anyone. But some churches do still take a stand, and are not afraid to call something sin. That is why I like the church that I go to. The pastors are not afraid of calling something sin. However, I think people need to be careful how they go about doing it. You know my perspective on food and such. For me personally, what I eat is not an issue. For others, they would feel that they would be sinning to eat certain stuff, so for them they shouldn't eat those foods. That is what I get out of Paul's writings that I quoted earlier. If it hurts your relationship with God, and you feel condemned by it, then don't eat it. If you have no problem with it, then you can eat it. I'll answer the rest later. I have to go. |
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Post by adam7gur on Mar 10, 2009 9:41:41 GMT -8
To all this I can only add the following.
Romans, chapter 14:13: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15: But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16: Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18: For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19: Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20: For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21: It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22: Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23: And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Hope this is clear!
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 10, 2009 13:28:42 GMT -8
But that's not the story of the rivh man and the publican, nor the story of the unclean woman who washed Messiah's feet with her hair. Here's the point. When we accept God's definition of sin and righteousness and live our lives to please Him in every aspect of it, knowing the Law and recognizing each point where we screw up and find ourselves once again asking for forgiveness and once again receiving it, we love much. Yet, when we define sin and righteousness on our own terms, thinking that we're really not all that bad, we resultingly love little. There is a direct correlation in the Bible between lovelessness and lawlessness. Just as their is a direct payoff in relationship with obedience. If following the food laws and other laws that you alluded to in your most recent post to me causes you to glorify God and grow in your relationship with Him, then good. It sounds like all of this is beneficial to you. I would not ask you to stop, nor would it be my place to do so. Where I'm at with my relationship with God, I'm growing. It is not necessary for me to do what you do in order for me to grow in my relationship with Him. I don't define sin and righteousness on my own terms, God just reveals sin and righteousness to me in a different way than He does to you. For you it seems to be through the laws in the Old Testament. For me it is through an ongoing personal relationship with Him and by Him convicting me of different things that I need to change in my life, or showing me where He wants me to go. Here's what I'll do -- I'll provide my testimony in the testimony thread. I noticed there was a testimony thread. You can read it and maybe have a better understanding about me and where I'm coming from. My response to this would be to say that God touches every aspect of my life -- what I do throughout the day and how I live my life. As the worship leader at the church I've been going to in my hometown wrote in a song: "Jesus, make Your mark upon my life. It's Your light that the world should see, so flow through me. In my speaking, oh Lord, in my thinking, oh Lord, in my acting, oh Lord " (there's a bunch of other parts to this part of the song. I just can't remember the whole thing right now) I can't remember the rest of it...but that's the general idea of the song. |
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Sanil
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Post by Sanil on Mar 10, 2009 15:46:24 GMT -8
I think the problem is that there are two different issues really being discussed here (Correct me if I'm wrong and people are saying that these things are necessary for salvation). The topic title is about whether Christians are saved, but the issue being discussed now has merged into whether believers should keep . I don't think any of us believe that we are justified by our own works. Keeping the is not what saves any of us, so in the same way it does not condemn those who have not added it to their lives. Just as Paul told the Galatians not to be caught up in these outward symbols and not to let people convince them they "needed" these things, we should not be confusing the issue and implying to non- -observant believers that they are not really God's people because they have not done this or that Law that we believe God tells us to do. I do agree that the is meant to be followed by all of us, but we cannot take that to the extreme that makes it appear we have earned God's grace by our following of the Law. We rather receive the Covenant and the Law because of God's grace and our obedience to him. If a believer has a heart of obedience, he or she will naturally add more of God's Law to his or her life as a result of spending time in the Word, in prayer, and in fellowship and following the guiding of the Spirit. Of course we should be sharing our understanding with other believers and show why we believe that God does still want us all to follow the . I just think that maybe because of the title of this thread, the issue has become confused. I wanted to clarify that, from the point of view that I hold and most that I have talked to hold, the Law is not what determines our salvation, and in that a non-observant believer is no better or worse in God's eyes than an observant believer. We are all sinners who have been forgiven and seen as righteous because of God's actions, not ours. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 11, 2009 3:20:02 GMT -8
I appreciate your point and we cannot over-emphasize that our relationship with God is only through Messiah and solely by the extension of His grace toward us. Yet, SCripture also says, "He that turns away his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayers are an abomination." (Proverbs 28:9).
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 11, 2009 5:37:05 GMT -8
I appreciate your point and we cannot over-emphasize that our relationship with God is only through Messiah and solely by the extension of His grace toward us. Yet, SCripture also says, "He that turns away his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayers are an abomination." (Proverbs 28:9). I think ALL believers (whether they identify themselves as Messianic Jews or Christians) struggle with this issue, to a certain degree. Early on when I was in college -- this was either during my freshman year or the first semester of my sophomore year, I was attending a very small Bible study that only had a couple people in it. It eventually died out. However, one conversation that I remember clearly happened to be about this very issue. Keep in mind that we were all Christian. Even though I had been to Niagara 2000 when I was in high school and to Chrysalis before going to college, I was very immature in my faith. I understood the gospel at some level, but I didn't quite get the fact that there was nothing that I could do that would make God love me any more or any less than He already did. Deep down inside, I still thought that God loved me because I didn't have sex outside of marriage, I didn't smoke, I didn't get drunk, and tried to follow the ten commandments, and I always struggled to try to be good enough for God. It's not adherence to any law that adds to God's love for us. The guy who ran the Bible study made a comment....I think it was about a Bible passage that we were studying, but he said something very simple, and it deeply impacted me. He just said very clearly to avoid the error of legalism and thinking that we had to earn our standing before God. I have been reminded of that several times after he said that, and I always need to check where I'm at with this topic. Intellectually, I think most believers agree that salvation is by grace through faith, and that grace means God's unmerited favor. It cannot be earned by being good. None of us can be good enough for God. That's why we all need Jesus. However, in our hearts we want to make it about our own effort. We think we have to earn it because society teaches us that we have to earn everything else, including love. It's one thing for our minds to understand grace, and it is quite another for our hearts to truly understand it. Our righteousness is Christ's righteousness. It is His blood that covers us. If salvation hangs on whether or not people follow laws, then it is no longer about grace. We cannot earn our way into heaven. I know that most people on this site believe that the dietary laws and so forth are to be followed by all believers. I disagree with this position, but regardless -- if salvation hinges on whether or not a person keeps these dietary laws (by this I mean, if you keep these laws you are saved, and if you don't you are condemned to hell), then we are talking about a salvation by works gospel. In that way I'm completely in agreement with this quote: Really think about this. If keeping all of the laws in the Old Testament is not how someone is saved, this means that salvation is not dependent on whether or not a person keeps all of these laws. To say that people who don't keep certain laws are not saved really means that you believe that salvation must be earned by following the laws. Either us Christians are saved by grace through faith, or we are condemned on grounds that we do not keep all of the laws in the Old Testament. Salvation is either by grace through faith or it is dependent upon works. I know what I believe (that salvation is by grace through faith, and it cannot be earned). But, as it has been obvious so far, I'm interpreting the verses in a different way than some others on this site. I'm reading the verses from a Christian viewpoint and not a Jewish one. So, in order to answer the original question -- are Christians who don't follow all of the laws in the Old Testament saved? -- people in this thread need to decide whether salvation is by grace through faith....or whether it is by following the law. If it's by grace through faith, then the answer to the original question should be yes, born again Christians are saved. If it's dependent on whether or not someone follows the law, then the answer to the original question would be no. It is either by grace through faith or it is by following the law. There is no middle ground. |
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Post by adam7gur on Mar 11, 2009 5:50:32 GMT -8
I think the problem is that there are two different issues really being discussed here (Correct me if I'm wrong and people are saying that these things are necessary for salvation). The topic title is about whether Christians are saved, but the issue being discussed now has merged into whether believers should keep . I am a Christian and I was EVERYTHING that the told the people of Israel not to do.Before accepting Messiah's sacrifice ,my name was SIN. I am described in the OT as everything that God's people should not do or even relate to! But the Messiah died for me also.I was not His,but He adopted me.I had a different father, but God is now my Father. I am the pig in Peter's vision,I am EVERY unclean food in that vision and in the that God told Peter NOT to consider unclean because He made me clean. Now, you the people of Israel,God's chosen one, what do you think of me and every gentile person that is now under the Messiah's blood? Am I still unclean for you...brothers! Are you not happy for my return to my Father's house or are you  because He clothed me with a royal suit , the same as yours? I am NOT trying to take your place!Even if I wanted to, I could not! I just want to worship the one true God, now that I am back home! Of course you have the right to do as you wish,but do not say that I am now unclean or unsaved if I do not keep the the way the people of Israel kept it before the Messiah,because otherwise if they did everything right ,then the Messiah came for nothing and if the is what someone needs to be saved,then I and every gentile have NO HOPE! Thank God , it is NOT like that! |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 11, 2009 5:54:26 GMT -8
I am a Christian and I was EVERYTHING that the told the people of Israel not to do.Before accepting Messiah's sacrifice ,my name was SIN. I am described in the OT as everything that God's people should not do or even relate to! But the Messiah died for me also.I was not His,but He adopted me.I had a different father, but God is now my Father. I am the pig in Peter's vision,I am EVERY unclean food in that vision and in the that God told Peter NOT to consider unclean because He made me clean. Now, you the people of Israel,God's chosen one, what do you think of me and every gentile person that is now under the Messiah's blood? Am I still unclean for you...brothers! Are you not happy for my return to my Father's house or are you because He clothed me with a royal suit , the same as yours? I am NOT trying to take your place!Even if I wanted to, I could not! I just want to worship the one true God, now that I am back home! Of course you have the right to do as you wish,but do not say that I am now unclean or unsaved if I do not keep the the way the people of Israel kept it before the Messiah,because otherwise if they did everything right ,then the Messiah came for nothing and if the is what someone needs to be saved,then I and every gentile have NO HOPE! Thank God , it is NOT like that! Exactly. I'd like to see what answers people in this thread give for this because this was one of the main reasons I wanted to come on this site. I was curious about how Messianic Jews felt towards Christians. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 11, 2009 10:14:17 GMT -8
I'd like to ask a question of Messianic Jews -- do you consider us Christians to be dirty and unclean? Do you consider us to be pagans?
Or do you fully accept us as your brothers and sisters in Christ, being on equal footing?
In other words, do you think we are "without hope and without God in the world?"
Is it your opinion that Jesus is only for Jews and those who convert to Messianic Judaism?
Do you think I'm condemned to hell because I don't have Jewish blood?
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touches every aspect of your life, from the time you wake up in the morning, to when you go to the bathroom, brush your teeth in the mirror, how you get dressed, what you have for breakfast, where you go, what you do, who you meet, what you say to them and how you say it. Learning to live according to 
because He clothed me with a royal suit , the same as yours?
