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Post by Mark on Mar 19, 2009 4:13:30 GMT -8
I wanted to share something on topic froma perspective you may not have considered. Paul considered himself Jewish, "believing all things written in the Law and in the prophets. (Acts 24:14). Messiah said, "Search the (Old Testament) Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. Those are (the evidences) which testify of Me." If Jesus "fulfilled" the Law so that it no longer defines sin for us, then He could not have been the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. The Messiah will bring all men to worship according to the Law. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:2-3 KJV) If Jesus instituted a "New Church" under the "New Covenant" then He abandoned God's "New Covenant" promises to Israel and declared His Father to be inept and untrustworthy. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV) Often, when discussing the value of  for the believer, the response is "We follow the Law of Christ." Messiah said, "I and My Father are one." If the Law of Christ has replaced the Law of God, then Christianity is paganism, believing in a different deity than the Lord God of Israel. If the Law of Christ i superior to the Law of God, then Christianity is poly-theism. Only if the Law of Christ reflects a perfect representation of the Law of God is there no conflict in our relationship with Him. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 5:45:14 GMT -8
I wanted to share something on topic froma perspective you may not have considered. Paul considered himself Jewish, "believing all things written in the Law and in the prophets. (Acts 24:14). I agree with you that Paul considered himself Jewish, and that he believed all things written in the Law and in the prophets. However, how you and I interpret this is different, and we will be in disagreement about what this exactly means. Agreed. I have no argument with this. That's not exactly what I meant. I didn't mean to imply that the Law no longer defines sin for us. It does, but I was trying to say that all of the Law can be viewed from a standpoint of love. If people live by the standard of love, then they are also following the Law. In the same way, if people do not act in a loving way towards other people, then they are breaking the Law (and you could pull out specific laws to show this and how it applied to that specific situation). And Jesus' life was a perfect reflection of what a sinless life is. He showed us how God wanted us to live, and defined for everyone what the Law was intended to do. He showed people what living according to the spirit of the law was rather than just the letter of the law. I agree with this, but again, our interpretation of what this means is different. Jesus truly did teach us God's ways, and taught us all how to live. No, He did not abandon God, and He did not abandon Israel, and He did not declare the Father to be inept or untrustworthy. However, Jesus did institute a new covenant. This can be seen from the Last Supper. LK 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." LK 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, " This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this. 1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, " This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 2CO 3:4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. HEB 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
HEB 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. And, although the church does not replace Israel, the church is also God's people. God has not forgotten Israel, and He certainly does still have a plan for Israel. However, this is what I believe happened: EPH 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. EPH 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. The church is something else -- it is a new creation, formed from both Jewish and non-Jewish believers in Jesus. See the part I put in bold. That is exactly what I'm trying to say in regard to living by the standard of love. He has put it into our hearts to do the things that are asked of people in the Law. That's also what I was trying to get at with several of the other passages I quoted in this thread. I know that you and I interpret this passage completely differently, and this is a big part of why we have disagreement. No, the Law of Christ is the same thing as the Law of God. Look at what Jesus called people to do -- love God above all else and love other people. If everyone were to abide by these two laws, then they will be in complete agreement with the spirit of the law. I do believe that the Law of Christ reflects a perfect represetnation of the Law of God. If people live by the letter of all of the laws, this does not necessarily mean that they are following the spirit behind the laws. A person could rigidly obey all of the laws in the Old Testament, but have no love for other people and no love for God. I think that this was Jesus' point many times in the Gospels. Jesus, who is God, knows what the purpose behind each and every law is. He knew what the law was intended to do, and He knows what perfect obedience to the laws is. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 20, 2009 8:49:07 GMT -8
Commonly taught is a separate but equal "people of God". This is contrary to Paul's teachings to the gentile Ephesian Church to stop acting like gentiles (Ephesians 2:11) and become full participants in the "commonwealth of Israel." The notion that there are two peoples directly contradicts Ephesians 4:4-6.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
You seem to have back-pedaled on God's definition of sin, first saying that love supercedes the commandment where all along I have been stating that the commandment is God's definition of love.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 26, 2009 6:33:56 GMT -8
Commonly taught is a separate but equal "people of God". This is contrary to Paul's teachings to the gentile Ephesian Church to stop acting like gentiles (Ephesians 2:11) and become full participants in the "commonwealth of Israel." The notion that there are two peoples directly contradicts Ephesians 4:4-6. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. You seem to have back-pedaled on God's definition of sin, first saying that love supercedes the commandment where all along I have been stating that the commandment is God's definition of love. I apologize. I didn't mean to suggest that Jewish believers were separate from non-Jewish believers. As I have said other places, I believe that EVERYONE (whether they are Jewish in background or non-Jewish in background) is part of the church. Both Jews and non-Jews are saved in the same way. I believe that we are supposed to be one in Jesus Christ. That is one reason that I am so frustrated with these pagan accusations that are being given towards us Christians. What I was trying to say is that I don't think that God has abandoned the Jews that are not believers in Jesus. I don't think He is done with them. I think that they still hold a special place in God's heart. This is not suggesting that they are saved apart from Jesus. I am not the judge of anyone. I view love as being THE commandment. |
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Post by yeshuafreak on Apr 1, 2009 16:33:53 GMT -8
Let YHVH be the judge. but to answer kindof answer your question, i thik that christianity has BECOME as false a religion as hinduism i personally believe that it depends on whether that person KNOWS what they are doing is wrong. i do think that YHVH will take that into consideration during judgeing. remember that christianity was just the helenistic name for messianic jew-- it is what the messianic gentiles called themselves, and not different from messianic judaism at first. then it got perverted by the roman religions and got popular while the untainted Yeshuaic religion died out. so to ask whether christians are going to hell really is a trick question i plan on writing more on this topic (which has bothered me for a while) on my new forum at barukhyeshua.proboards.com/ check it out... i will soon have that topic up and i am looking for staff members (that i can trust, mind you). |
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Post by youneverletgo on Apr 1, 2009 18:27:57 GMT -8
Let YHVH be the judge. but to answer kindof answer your question, i thik that christianity has BECOME as false a religion as hinduism i personally believe that it depends on whether that person KNOWS what they are doing is wrong. i do think that YHVH will take that into consideration during judgeing. remember that christianity was just the helenistic name for messianic jew-- it is what the messianic gentiles called themselves, and not different from messianic judaism at first. then it got perverted by the roman religions and got popular while the untainted Yeshuaic religion died out. so to ask whether christians are going to hell really is a trick question i plan on writing more on this topic (which has bothered me for a while) on my new forum at barukhyeshua.proboards.com/ check it out... i will soon have that topic up and i am looking for staff members (that i can trust, mind you). Would you welcome Christians to respond to anything that is posted there? Because this seems to be a huge issue between Messianic Jews and Christians. |
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veggirl
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Greetings!
Posts: 103
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Post by veggirl on Apr 2, 2009 9:44:22 GMT -8
Yeshuafreak,
Why did you say that christianity is as false as hinduism? This is just not so! Christians will be saved with faith. I know of many christians that celebrate sabbath and even take part in washing the feet like Yeshua did.. and are kosher they do call there self christians.
We can't put anyone in hell thats not our job! We have one judge and thats Adoni!
Thanks bri'gette
PS: Yeshuafreak, I see you found your way to this forum I am happy your here : )
Theres also a place on the forum if you wanted to introduce yourself , just so people can know a little about you.. if you wanted to..
Peace&love...
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Post by yeshuafreak on Apr 2, 2009 16:40:02 GMT -8
Christianity as a religion is as false as hinduism. (not literally, metaphorically... gosh, everyone on forums takes everything so literally, lol)
But anyway... i have no problem with christians- i do however have a problem with what christianity as a religion has turned into. it has attached itself to many false doctrines such as the trinity and kenotic theory, etc.
messianic judaism is not infallible. but i think as long as it stays on track, it will become one of the closest religions to the truth. It is very divided right now however, and i think that it could easily be shaken and the movement shattered.
but my point was that christians are definately going to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven... but christianity wont be whats taught up there.
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veggirl
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Greetings!
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Post by veggirl on Apr 3, 2009 9:10:07 GMT -8
Thank you for clearing this up..
Peace&love..
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Post by rupert on Jun 27, 2009 7:53:56 GMT -8
In my mind, law and love cannot be separated. I've also heard mentioned of the law of Christ as something unique for Christians.
"But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt. 22:34-37.
For one thing to hang upon another doesn't imply a superseding any more than a picture being of less import or appreciation when hung upon a wall versus being on a table. One highlights the other. The dual backdrop that Yashua placed behind the law gave us a clearer appreciation of it's design and intent. In my mind, on one side is a cedar of love for YHWH and on the other is a cedar of love for man; both very alive and growing. Between the two is the banner of the law, drawing attention to both while each cedar frames the law.
Many Christians have made a huge mistake of ripping the banner from between the trees, attempting to admire each without the declaration that provides balance and instruction regarding the two.
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veggirl
Full Member
Greetings!
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Post by veggirl on Jun 29, 2009 17:46:55 GMT -8
I don't even know who will be saved now,, because now I know who the christians are they are everyone not keeping . Well thats odd because is in our bibles... and being kosger and keep sabbath these are things Yeshua did.. and if we are christ like then we have too.. Its a must theres just no getting around it , its in the bible... PS.. we will just have to see who will be saved, Our reward is with the lord.. |
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Post by ninjaaron on Oct 9, 2009 11:01:35 GMT -8
Oi! I hope so. I'm not observant in the halakic sense. I just do my best to know an understand and to do what I believe it's calling me to do in light of the Messiah. With jews, I act like a jew. With gentiles, I act like a gentile (following the regulations impossed by the Jerusalem council, of course). In all cases, I try to do what's right (with various degrees of success). I don't condemn anyone who feels called to follow the halakah (in fact, it is often very important for missionaries to Jews to do so, not to mention that the fulfilment of a Mitzvah carries it's own reward), but I must confess that I've yet to find that vocation in my own life. I might suggest a quick once over of all of Paul's writings once again. I'm not suggesting you've misunderstood them, but I would suggest that the issue of traditional halakic observance is far from cut and dry in the New Testament (and even in the Tanak), though it is certainly unanimous in it's position that we all ought to follow the halakat haTorah taught by Messiah Yehsua. For all of you who are observant, how many of you lived in your Sukkah this past week (in Jerusalem, of course, as the directs)? Let's just keep in mind that for Paul, all that is required for fellowship in the church is the confession "Jesus is Lord." I suppose that in the coming world, we will all hear the phrase "how did you get hear?!" repeated quite a bit in the beginning. |
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Post by Mark on Oct 9, 2009 15:40:32 GMT -8
Hi Aaron, First, we are as capable of obeying the specific metzvotim of Kingdom laws as those who were responsible to obey them during the exile: like Daniel and Mordecai. Second, if all we need is to confess the name of the Messiah, why is He going to deny entrance to the Kingdom those who have prophesied, cast out demons and done many wonderful works in His name? (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV) The point is that I can call my shoe a duck all I want to; but if it doesn't walk like a duck, swim like a duck and quack like a duck, it's not really a duck. Messiah tells us that it is by our fruits (outward manifestations of His presence) that we will be known as His disciples. While we are only responsible for what we know and understand, we will grow closer and closer in obedience as we grow closer to Him. Messiah Yeshua, as the apostle Paul, were observant Jews. As we learn to walk as imitators of Him, we must invariably become followers of . I recommend you poke around at some to the discussions on New Testament texts. I'll bet that many of the questions that are currently going through your mind will probably be answered. |
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Post by ninjaaron on Oct 9, 2009 22:55:35 GMT -8
Oh, certainly there will be many who confess and have a share in the coming kingdom, but at the same time, we are in fellowship with them. I am sure that people will be cast out, but I am equally convinced that it is not our place to decide their eternal fate. God has always been anything but predictable. Naturally, I am not arguing that any of the mitzvot are to be set aside. They will stand forever. What I would argue is that the halakot for those mitzvot are not on the surface of the text. Even in Rabbinic Judaism, there are certain cases where one chooses to break one mitzvah because another is deemed more important. This kind of thinking is alive and well in Jesus teaching, and is taken to the next level in that of Paul. Like the rabbis said, "No action can stand before saving a life, in precedence, except: Idolatry, Sexual Immorality, and Murder." (b. Ketubot 19a). Or, as Jesus taught, halakat ha-ahavah. If one one follows the halakah of love, it does not mean that any commandments are nullified, it simply means that they are observed differently in different contexts. I think this was the correct way to observe the before Messiah came as well as after, and it is partially because of this elastic quality that the is able to endure forever. Let me give my example. I live on the Mount of Olives in a predominantly Arab neighbourhood. No matter how anyone feels about the political situation, we can all agree that Arabs also need to become followers of the Messiah (How much better would this world be if they did!). Another fact is that the Israeli government has mistreated Palestinians from time to time. Not to suggest that they shouldn't have the land, just to say that they ought to go about it in a way that is just to all. Finally, the Palestinians have been fed lies and slander about the Jews from a very young age. If I lived the life of a traditional Jew, all doors for the Gospel would immediately slam shut, not to mention that I would probably be attacked in the street. No way am I putting a sukkah in my back yard! Instead, letting love be the rule, I try to do as the Arabs do to the extent that my faith in Yeshua' allows. In fact, in this country, there are many Arab who believe in the Messiah from Islamic backgrounds who still call themselves Muslim (though they do not deny Yeshua'), and generally live in a typical Arab way. This accomplishes two things: I keeps them from getting killed (Muslims will kill anyone who turns to another religion), and it opens the door for others to come in. Without a doubt, we grow closer an closer in obedience as we follow the Messiah. In the next breath after saying that the world will know us by our fruits, Yeshua' says, את אלה מצוה אני עליכם שתאהבו זה את זה, "These things I am commanding you, that you may love one another." Love is always the rule, and that controls the way in which we observe all the other commandments, which may mean different things in different contexts. Again, I want to stress that I'm not suggesting that the is void, or that any of the Mitzvot are not for today. I am suggesting that specific halakot may vary substantially according to context and tradition. Jewish law gives us the principle that naharah naharah ufashteh, "Every river has it's own course," and from that they say that each of the historic traditions has it's own integrity, it's own channel through which the words stream from heaven to earth (R. Jonathan Sacks). But I certainly will check out the NT text discussion. In the event that I try to jump in, I'd like to know which text folks here find authoritative, The critical Greek Text, based on the Alexandrian Codesies, the Majority Greek Text (that which underlies the KJV), or the Aramaic Peshitta version of the text, used for such bibles as the "Hebraic Roots New Testament"? |
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Post by Mark on Oct 10, 2009 5:17:03 GMT -8
Hi Aaron, Periodically someone will come to me all excited and say, "I get it! I now understand that is God's standard of righteousness. All these Laws and commands that my pastor has always told me are irrelevant are really for my good to draw me closer to God! Now what do I do?" He's expecting me to give him a book or a list of commands ans prohibitions or set him down in a new disciple's orientation class. I simply answer, "Do what you're told and don't say 'no' to God when He speaks to you through His Word." Deuteronomy 29:29 is a beautiful little passage that says "The secret things belong to Adonai our God; but those things that are laid bare before us are for us and for our children, that we may be busy about all the words of God's Law." (Mark's loose translation from memory). There's a lot of things in that I don't understand. There's a lot of things that I have a cursory knowledge of, that I can't begin to fathom the depths of their significance in their applications to my life. Deuteronomy 29:29 tells me that those things aren't my responsibility. It's my job to do what I know. As I grow and learn and walk more and more closely with Adonai through His Spirit, Scripture tells me that I will be fashioned more and more in likeness and character to the person of the Messiah. This means each step of obedience that I am careful to observe today, strengthens my mind and broadens my capacity to learn greater truths, aquire deeper insights, and walk closer to Him. Every step in the opposite direction does exactly the opposite. The title of this thread is a bit inflamatory. Yet, sometimes we need splash of cold water to get us to think a little bit. Are Christians saved? The answer has to be "some of them." The answer has to be the same for Messianic Jews. The answer is very likely the same for some traditional Jews. The answer is possibly the same for some Muslims. God has this way of speaking to people on His own without needing our permission or having to fit into our preconceived models. His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. At the same time, the Christianity that is dominantly taught in the United States is a faith of convenience. The "Jesus" that people are told to put their faith in for eternal salvation is often not a person described in the Scriptures; but an icon to represent the ideals of that individual church leadership. There's a whole lot of people out there who think they're going to heaven because they know the right password or because they said the right prayer, not because they have entered into a relationship with the Most High God through His Annointed One. In many cases they have changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served a religion of their own creation more than their Creator. I sat on the couch next to a pastor who I had just cornered into admitting that Jesus lived and taught within the contexts and confines of Judaism, that everything He said and did was in obedience to the Jewish Bible known as the Tanakh, and we are called to imitate Him as our example. This pastor's response was that we don't follow Jesus because Jesus was under the Old Covenant. |
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for the believer, the response is "We follow the Law of Christ." Messiah said, "I and My Father are one." If the Law of Christ has replaced the Law of God, then Christianity is paganism, believing in a different deity than the Lord God of Israel. If the Law of Christ i superior to the Law of God, then Christianity is poly-theism. Only if the Law of Christ reflects a perfect representation of the Law of God is there no conflict in our relationship with Him.
