Will Christians Be Saved?

[youneverletgo]

Sept 19, 2005 12:41:37 GMT -8 Pioneer said:

Naild, your gonna groan here! Close! The blood wasn't the agent of their redemption, only the sign for the Death Angel to passover, it was the strong arm of the Lord that saved them.

What??

Are Messianic Jews and Christians so different on this?

Or is this just the view of some Messianics?

It is essential to my belief as a Christian that Jesus' blood saves. If Jesus' blood is not what saves, then what is your interpretation of the following passages?:

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Romans 3:25

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Ephesians 1:7
to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9

EPH 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Colossians 1:20
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Hebrews 9:14
14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 10:19
HEB 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus

1 Peter 1:2; 1:19; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 5:9; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 12:11

[youneverletgo]

Jan 28, 2007 20:10:57 GMT -8 Chizuk Emunah said:

I must warn you. What I am about to say will offend some people, so if you are easily offended, then please do not read the rest of this post. If not, then feel free to read on.

Christianity comes into play as a false religion. It is a counterfeit (though cleverly packaged) to the one true faith of HaShem. Everything they do is the polar opposite of truth. From the nature of the Mashiach, to Christmas, Easter, and one of the biggest lies of all.... Replacement Theology (The Church is the new "Spiritual" Israel).

1.) Please note that not all Christians believe in Replacement Theology

2.) Christianity is supposed to be about faith in Jesus Christ. Everything that is a part of Christianity is supposed to be in service to Christ. We worship Jesus at Christmas and Easter. We are celebrating Jesus' birth and bodily resurrection. It is all focused on Christ.

If a Goy wishes to join with Israel into the true way of HaShem and leave behind the idolatry of the Church, then they must follow the established practice of accepting the minimum mitzvot (see Acts 15 and the Sheva Mitzvot of the Bnei Noach), with the intent to learn and do more as they study the . I might add that while Goyim are not required to convert, they are definitely encouraged to do so.

Christians are to follow Christ.

For me, what matters is Christ and nothing else because He is the foundation that the church is supposed to be building on.

If some Christians want to convert to Messianic Judaism, I have no problem with that, just as long as they are still following Christ.

As for believing that Rabbi Y'hoshua is the Mashiach outside of Judaism, I'm afraid that it is impossible. For if you extricate him from his Jewishness and Pharisaical surroundings and instead add qualities to him which are non-Jewish and completely foreign, then what you end up with is the blond-haired, blue-eyed, Torahless, Christian "Jesus." Again I must recommend this article from Yashanet if you truly want to get to know the historical Rabbi Y'hoshua. Not Subject to the Law of G-d? If you have not read it yet, it is a must read.

No knowlegable Christian would deny that Jesus was Jewish.

[Mark]

I think where you'll find a clear distinction in the Messianic perspective faith and what is generally understood in Christianity is the relevence of Messiah Yeshua being the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

The Church, by in large, uses Yeshua's words as an abbrogation of . If this is what He did, then He could not be Jewish Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament. The argument is, then, the fellow that is commonly described and understood in Christian Sunday School is not an accurate representation of the One who came and died on the cross for our sins.

Is it the name "Jesus Christ" or the manner in which we pronounce the name? That is not biblical faith, rather an incantation. We place our faith in the person of our Messiah, as the One True Living God made flesh, not simply a name with a bunch of cool stories behind it.

We understand faith in terms of a Hebraic context and understanding: that faith is reflective in the redefining of our own personal identity, not the Greco understanding of simply assuming an intellectual attachment.

So, it is possible that many who declare themselves saved by faith in the Name and by the Blood of Jesus, testify an attachment to Him without needing to in any way acknowledge who He was in the manner He chose to present Himself to us: by every scope of definition, a Jew, who came only to save the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24).

Knowing that this is an open forum, and your position was posted without any interference, you must understand that not everyone who posts a position should be considered the representative spokesman for Messianic Judaism. In fact, that is a major difference between our style and what you will likely find in the Church. We believe that the voicing of our differences refines us, as opposed to shutting out voices that are contrary to the views of the staff or management. I would never be free to come into your Church and expression my views on why the Law is necessary for us to grow close in our relationship with Adonai; but anyone can express their opinions among us. Do you understand this distinction? In light of this, please read slowly over the various posts, allowing the dust to settle between them to get a clear message of what the Lord is speaking to you.

This is not a good place to get a conclusive answer on what all Messianic Jewish believers hodl true and anyone claiming to be able to give you that position is lying. An old adage is two Jews, three opinions. It rings true among us. You are welcome to struggle along on our journey. Yet, I would suggest you look through the posts on Paul's writings, particulary the passages in Romans and Galatians which you have cited. We don't necessarily see them as saying what you may have been taught, remembering that Paul was a Jewish Rabbi and would teach from a Hebraic perspective and mindset, largely lost or abandoned by the Christian Church.

[youneverletgo]

Mar 8, 2009 17:07:13 GMT -8 Mark said:

I think where you'll find a clear distinction in the Messianic perspective faith and what is generally understood in Christianity is the relevence of Messiah Yeshua being the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

Yet, all Christians I know (using my definition of Christian and not society's definition) do fully believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

Yes, there are theologically liberal "Christians" who deny this, but to deny that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament would be to undermine what the Christian faith is. That is why Jesus is called "Christ." Christians are supposed to believe that He is the Jewish Messiah. That was a big part of what Matthew was trying to show in his Gospel.

I don't understand why anyone who claims to be Christian is denying this. It makes no sense to deny that Jesus is the Messiah. I suppose this is partially because of the increasingly theologically liberal ideas that are creeping into mainline denominations. Another part of it would be that many churches these days are just interested in getting numbers, and do not want to offend anyone, so they no longer teach the gospel.

However, this isn't the way it is in all Christian churches. There are many, many Christian churches that still do fully affirm that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament. If my church stopped preaching that Jesus is the Messiah, I would leave it.

The Church, by in large, uses Yeshua's words as an abbrogation of . If this is what He did, then He could not be Jewish Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament. The argument is, then, the fellow that is commonly described and understood in Christian Sunday School is not an accurate representation of the One who came and died on the cross for our sins.

Perhaps it is our emphases that differ.

No church that I've ever been to teaches that people can just live however they want because there is no law at all anymore, or that Jesus got rid of all laws.

The emphasis on the churches that I've been to is on Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, always in light of His life, death, and bodily resurrection.

From what I've read in this forum so far, it seems as if the emphasis for Messianic Jews tends to be more about the law.

Would this be generally an accurate assessment?

Or perhaps we have more of a common viewpoint, but we approach this subject from different angles.

Is it the name "Jesus Christ" or the manner in which we pronounce the name? That is not biblical faith, rather an incantation. We place our faith in the person of our Messiah, as the One True Living God made flesh, not simply a name with a bunch of cool stories behind it.

I think it is a heart issue. If someone truly has come to the place where they know they need Jesus, then when they confess Him, there is a meaning behind that confession. I agree with you when you said this, "we place our faith in the person of our Messiah, as the One True Living God made flesh, not simply a name with a bunch of cool stories behind it." So do we Christians.

We understand faith in terms of a Hebraic context and understanding: that faith is reflective in the redefining of our own personal identity, not the Greco understanding of simply assuming an intellectual attachment.

Although I don't know what faith in terms of a Hebraic context is, I do know that by faith I (and many other Christians) do not just mean having an intellectual attachment. Faith in Jesus isn't just an intellectual thing for me. There is another level to it that involves a heart issue.

So, it is possible that many who declare themselves saved by faith in the Name and by the Blood of Jesus, testify an attachment to Him without needing to in any way acknowledge who He was in the manner He chose to present Himself to us: by every scope of definition, a Jew, who came only to save the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24).

The only problem I have with saying that Jesus came only to save the Jews is that I don't think that is accurate, in terms of the context of the entire Bible.

The NASB has translated Matthew 15:24 as this:
24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Taking into consideration what other passages say, I don't see this verse as saying that He will only save Jews. Otherwise the Great Commission, John 10:16, and other passages from both the Old Testament and New Testament make no sense.

Yes, it is true that while Jesus was on earth, He was sent mostly to the Jews. He mostly just ministered to them. He ministered to a few non-Jews, but His mission was mainly to the Jews. However, after His resurrection, He gave the Great Commission --

MT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

It is my firm belief that Jesus is for everyone -- both Jews and non-Jews.

Knowing that this is an open forum, and your position was posted without any interference, you must understand that not everyone who posts a position should be considered the representative spokesman for Messianic Judaism. In fact, that is a major difference between our style and what you will likely find in the Church. We believe that the voicing of our differences refines us, as opposed to shutting out voices that are contrary to the views of the staff or management.

So then, let me ask you this -- do Messianic Jews have a creed or statement of faith so that you can determine what is both within and outside of the bounds of Messianic Judaism?

For example, many Christians would use such creeds as the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed to define what is outside of Christian orthodoxy.

I would never be free to come into your Church and expression my views on why the Law is necessary for us to grow close in our relationship with Adonai; but anyone can express their opinions among us. Do you understand this distinction? In light of this, please read slowly over the various posts, allowing the dust to settle between them to get a clear message of what the Lord is speaking to you.

That's not necessarily true. Would you be able to preach it in my church? No.

But this doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to have a discussion with the pastor or members of the congregation about your views. Many of my friends at my church like to dialogue with those who hold to different viewpoints.

But it does seem that there is a greater variety of opinions among Messianic Jews than among Christians.

This is not a good place to get a conclusive answer on what all Messianic Jewish believers hodl true and anyone claiming to be able to give you that position is lying. An old adage is two Jews, three opinions. It rings true among us. You are welcome to struggle along on our journey. Yet, I would suggest you look through the posts on Paul's writings, particulary the passages in Romans and Galatians which you have cited. We don't necessarily see them as saying what you may have been taught, remembering that Paul was a Jewish Rabbi and would teach from a Hebraic perspective and mindset, largely lost or abandoned by the Christian Church.

This is very interesting. I did not expect to find such a discrepancy between Christian interpretations of Romans & Galatians and Messianic Jewish interpretations of these passages.

[youneverletgo]

Here's my church's statement of faith.

Are there agreed upon Messianic beliefs? If so, how much of this is different from what my church believes? If there is no agreed upon Messianic beliefs, then how do various people on this forum differ in belief?

We adhere to the Apostle's, Nicene, and Chalcedonian Creeds of the Christian church. Out of loyalty to Christ and the gospel, we have come to a number of convictions concerning the clear teaching of the Bible. At the same time, we have not included in our statement of faith much that can be legitimately debated by orthodox Christians. In other words, we do have boundaries, but our boundaries are broad and inclusive. On the spectrum of Christian churches:

* We are orthodox.
* We are evangelical.
* We are empowered evangelicals.

We Believe:

1. God the King and the Holy Trinity

WE BELIEVE that God is the Eternal King. He is an infinite, unchangeable Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, goodness, justice, power and love. From all eternity He exists as the One Living and True God in three persons of one substance, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in power and glory.

2. God the King: The Creator and Ruler of All Things

WE BELIEVE that God's kingdom is everlasting. From His throne, through His Son, His eternal Word, God created, upholds and governs all that exists: the heavenly places, the angelic hosts, the universe, the earth, every living thing and mankind. God created all things very good.

3. Counterfeit Kingdom: Satan and Demonic Hosts

WE BELIEVE that Satan, originally a great, good angel, rebelled against God, taking a host of angels with him. He was cast out of God's presence and, as a usurper of God's rule, established a counter-kingdom of darkness and evil on the earth.

4. The Kingdom in the Creation of Man, the Fall and the Doctrine of Original Sin

WE BELIEVE that God created mankind in His own image, male and female, for relationship with Himself and to govern the earth. Under the temptation of Satan, our original parents fell from grace, bringing sin, sickness and God's judgment of death to the earth. Through the fall, Satan and his demonic hosts gained access to God's good creation. Creation now experiences the consequences and effects of Adam's original sin. Human beings are born in sin, subject to God's judgment of death and captive to Satan's kingdom of darkness.

5. God's Providence, Kingdom Law and Covenants

WE BELIEVE that God did not abandon His rule over the earth which He continues to uphold by His providence. In order to bring redemption, God established covenants which revealed His grace to sinful people. In the covenant with Abraham, God bound Himself to His people Israel, promising to deliver them from bondage to sin and Satan and to bless all the nations through them.

WE BELIEVE that as King, God later redeemed His people by His mighty acts from bondage in Egypt and established His covenant through Moses, revealing His perfect will and our obligation to fulfill it. The law's purpose is to order our fallen race and to make us conscious of our moral responsibility. By the work of God's Spirit, it convicts us of our sin and God's righteous judgment against us and brings us to Christ alone for salvation.

WE BELIEVE that when Israel rejected God's rule over her as King, God established the monarchy in Israel and made an unconditional covenant with David, promising that his heir would restore God's kingdom reign over His people as Messiah forever.

6. Christ the Mediator and Eternal King

WE BELIEVE that in the fullness of time, God honored His covenants with Israel and His prophetic promises of salvation by sending His Son, Jesus, into the world. Conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, as fully God and fully man in one person, He is humanity as God intended us to be. Jesus was anointed as God's Messiah and empowered by the Holy Spirit, inaugurating God's kingdom reign on earth, overpowering the reign of Satan by resisting temptation, preaching the good news of salvation, healing the sick, casting out demons and raising the dead. Gathering His disciples, He reconstituted God's people as His Church to be the instrument of His kingdom. After dying for the sins of the world, Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day, fulfilling the covenant of blessing given to Abraham. In His sinless, perfect life Jesus met the demands of the law and in His atoning death on the cross He took God's judgment for sin which we deserve as law-breakers. By His death on the cross He also disarmed the demonic powers. The covenant with David was fulfilled in Jesus' birth from David's house, His Messianic ministry, His glorious resurrection from the dead, His ascent into heaven and His present rule at the right hand of the Father. As God's Son and David's heir, He is the eternal Messiah-King, advancing God's reign throughout every generation and throughout the whole earth today.

7. The Ministry of the Holy Spirit

WE BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Church at Pentecost in power, baptizing believers into the Body of Christ and releasing the gifts of the Spirit to them. The Spirit brings the permanent indwelling presence of God to us for spiritual worship, personal sanctification, building up the Church, gifting us for ministry, and driving back the kingdom of Satan by the evangelization of the world through proclaiming the word of Jesus and doing the works of Jesus.

WE BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit. We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit, for healing, and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church.

8. The Sufficiency of Scripture

WE BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit inspired the human authors of Holy Scripture so that the Bible is without error in the original manuscripts. We receive the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments as our final, absolute authority, the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

9. The Power of the Gospel Over the Kingdom of Darkness

WE BELIEVE that the whole world is under the domination of Satan and that all people are sinners by nature and choice. All people therefore are under God's just judgment. Through the preaching of the Good News of Jesus and the Kingdom of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, God regenerates, justifies, adopts and sanctifies through Jesus by the Spirit all who repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. By this they are released from Satan's domain and enter into God's kingdom reign.

10. The Church: Instrument of the Kingdom

WE BELIEVE in the one, holy, universal Church. All who repent of their sins and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and form the living Body of Christ, of which He is the head and of which we are all members.

11. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

WE BELIEVE that Jesus Christ committed two ordinances to the Church: water baptism and the Lord's Supper. Both are available to all believers.

12. The Kingdom of God and the Final Judgment

WE BELIEVE that God's kingdom has come in the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, that it continues to come in the ministry of the Spirit through the Church, and that it will be consummated in the glorious, visible and triumphant appearing of Christ - His return to the earth as King. After Christ returns to reign, He will bring about the final defeat of Satan and all of his minions and works, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment and the eternal blessing of the righteous and eternal conscious punishment of the wicked. Finally, God will be all in all and His kingdom, His rule and reign, will be fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth, recreated by His mighty power, in which righteousness dwells and in which He will forever be worshiped.

[youneverletgo]

Okay, so I have thought about this thread and the comments that were made in this thread so far -- and I want to see if I understand correctly.

It appears to me that the general consensus on this board, based on the replies that were posted here, is that Christians are NOT saved. The reasoning here seems to be that if a person truly believed, they would be led to follow all of the Old Testament laws, including the dietary laws. Because we don't follow ALL of the laws in the Old Testament, we are bearing bad fruit, and thus cannot be truly saved. Everything seems to come down to whether or not a person follows all of the laws in the Old Testament. If they do, then it proves their salvation. Do I understand what has been said in this thread so far correctly?

If so, then there does seem to be a major difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity. It seems everything in Messianic Judaism can be boiled down to the Law, and that it is the Law that is the common thread throughout the entire Bible. Obedience to the Law is of utmost importance. The focus would mostly be on the Law then.

In Christianity, the focus is on Christ.


So it seems that according to the viewpoint expressed here, all Christians who do not follow the Old Testament Laws will be going to hell, despite our faith in Jesus Christ, because we do not follow ALL of the Old Testament laws.

If this is truly the viewpoint of most Messianic Jews, then you are not the only group to tell me that I'm going to hell.

I have been told by Oneness Pentecostals that I'm going to hell because I believe in the Trinity, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (and the name Jesus was not used in my baptism), and I don't believe in other Oneness Pentecostal doctrine.

I have been told by a couple of Catholics that I'm going to hell because I'm not Roman Catholic, and thus, I don't have the real Jesus. Only the Catholic Church has the real Jesus. The sacraments in my church are invalid because my pastors have no authority from God. I don't have the Holy Spirit because only Roman Catholics can receive the Holy Spirit at a Roman Catholic baptism. I don't believe like Roman Catholics do, so I have a false gospel.

I have been told by other Protestants that I'm going to hell because I believe it is possible for a Roman Catholic to be saved. I had some very close friends in college who were Catholic (and these were not the Catholics who told me I was going to hell), and they truly did believe in Jesus in the same way that I do. I took a stand that my Roman Catholic friends are saved. I was told by these other Protestants that that was bad fruit, and thus, I'm going to hell.

I've been told by Jehovah's Witnesses that I'm going to be annihalated because I believe in the Trinity, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, and I don't believe how they believe.

I have also been told that I'm going to hell because I don't own a King James version of the Bible, and I'm using other translations (such as the NIV and NASB). They claim that both the NIV and the NASB were inspired by Satan, and thus, I'm reading Satanic bibles.

If I listened to everyone who told me I was going to hell, I would be in big trouble. I believe that I'm saved because of Jesus Christ and what He did for me, and I believe in Him and what He has done. I stand on the position that biblically, this seems to be what justifies me before God, and not any of these other things (whether or not I follow the Old Testament dietary laws, what translation of the Bible I use, etc.)

I want to thank you all for allowing me to post here. I'm open to more discussion, but it is this very topic that I mainly came here for. I was interested in how Messianic Jews viewed Christians. This seems to have answered my questions on this.

[Mark]

I think I made clear that there is no general concensus on the subject whatsoever. In fact, it is a false hope that many will make, assuming that their association or familiarity with the name of "Jesus" .

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

Christianity has largely redefined who Jesus is so that "accepting Jesus" allows for rejecting everything that He taught and embraced.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(Matthew 12:48-50 KJV)

Messiah Yeshua taught strict obedience and absolute commitment to , without any dismissal or abbrogation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23:23 KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:19 KJV)

Most Christian institututions dismiss His teachings that specifically relate to (not realizing that almost everything He said was either a direct quote or inference toward specific texts of (please see the project I had started in "the gospels" page).

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(John 14:23-24 KJV)

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)

You can't teach "all things whatsoever I have commanded you" without teaching .

If I asked you if Mormoms were saved, what would you say? The believe in Jesus. They place their trust and faith in him, or so they would tell you. Yet, most Christain scholars who are familiar with the Mormon faith say that the Jesus taught by the Mormon Church is, at best, a misrepresentation.

Yet, I, for one, am not going to declare that no one who attends a Sunday church and has ham for lunch is not going to be saved. I am going to say that those who reject the commands of God as not applicable for their lives, have a limited capacity to experience the love and grace that our Messiah has truly made them accessible to.

`And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray; and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
(Matthew 24:11-12 YLT)

I believe that there are a lot of people in the Christian Church who are saved; but that is because our God is who He is, not because the Church is what it is. Scripture says that if you are truly one of His own, you will be drawn closer and closer into the image of Him, a reflection of His glory, an obedient child. Scripture also clearly defines sin (or the rejection of His will) as abandonment of (by the Law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20)).

Now, there is not a single one of us who is absolutely in compliance with every command in Scripture. "There is none righteous...." And if we fail to keep one point of we are guilty as sinners (James 2:10). We are therefore saved only by the blood of Messiah as our true sacrifice. It is by His death on the cross that we are worthy to be called heirs of righteousness and God's children. Yet, if we are not drawn closer into His presence by love and obedience through the working of His Holy Spirit in our lives, we have been duped and follow a false Christ.

I have had the priviledge and pleasure of observing a good meany people struggle with this process, having been taught by their pastors and teachers to abandon the goodness of God's Word to embrace the "Name of Jesus." I say it has been a pleasure because I can see the Spirit of God working in thier lives, causing them to wrestle with the Word of God, despite what the religious world around them is teaching them. This is not a matter of I'm right and you're wrong. It is not a question of who has the right way. It is not my agenda to convert people to become Messianic Jewish because here is the cornered market on truth. It's my mission, regardless of your denominational affiliation, to say yes to God, regardless of what the religious community, including the Messianic Rabbis and Christian teachers are telling you- and not hold fast to the Nicene Creed (which I may hopefully get to at some point), nor in the confidence of being Catholic, Christian or Messianic Jew; but the hope in love of the One who has called you to Himself through His own Word and by His own Spirit.

[youneverletgo]

Mar 9, 2009 5:48:26 GMT -8 Mark said:

I think I made clear that there is no general concensus on the subject whatsoever. In fact, it is a false hope that many will make, assuming that their association or familiarity with the name of "Jesus" .

Okay....sorry...understood. So then there is no consensus whatsoever on this subject? Some would say that Christians who don't follow every Law are still saved, while others would say that we are all going to hell and are truly not saved.

So then, I can assume, there is no statement of faith or creed that Messianic Jews accept?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

While I understand that point you are making here....what about the part that says "I never knew you." How do you, specifically view the "I never knew you" part?

What I get out of this passage is that there are some people who claim to be Christian who do things in His name, but do not actually personally know Him. There is no personal relationship or yielding to Him as Lord and Savior, and thus these individuals will not do the Father's will.

I can guess that you and I probably have a different definition of what it means to be doing the Father's will. From reading the posts that I've read so far, it seems that many in this thread would interpret it as following all of the laws in the Old Testament.

I approach it from a different perspective. To me it means serving other people, leading other people to Christ, and generally acting out of love towards other people.

Christianity has largely redefined who Jesus is so that "accepting Jesus" allows for rejecting everything that He taught and embraced.

This isn't necessarily true. Not all Christians (in fact most Christians) do not reject everything that Jesus taught and embraced. If it were true that we rejected everything He taught, we would have to reject everything in the Sermon on the Mount, all His statements about calling His followers to love others, His statements about seeking Him above all else, etc.

Messiah Yeshua taught strict obedience and absolute commitment to , without any dismissal or abbrogation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23:23 KJV)

Most Christians, although we do not follow the dietary laws and such, we do strive to uphold judgment, mercy, and faith...but again, our definitions of these things probably differ.

Most Christian institututions dismiss His teachings that specifically relate to (not realizing that almost everything He said was either a direct quote or inference toward specific texts of (please see the project I had started in "the gospels" page).

And we don't throw out the entire Old Testament and everything in it. We simply no longer follow such things as dietary laws. There is no question that much of what Jesus said and did can be compared with the Old Testament, and that the Old Testament is quoted in the New Testament.

If I asked you if Mormoms were saved, what would you say? The believe in Jesus. They place their trust and faith in him, or so they would tell you. Yet, most Christain scholars who are familiar with the Mormon faith say that the Jesus taught by the Mormon Church is, at best, a misrepresentation.

I would say that Mormonism is heretical on several grounds, according to what is commonly held to be Christian orthodoxy among Christians.

1.) According to what I've read of their theology and my understanding of it: They deny the Trinity by saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different gods. They also claim that the Father was once a human who was a good Mormon who lived on another planet. They say that the Father had sex with a wife and had Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They claim that in the Old Testament that only the Father is Elohim and that only Jesus is YHWH. They also believe that all of us humans were also produced by the Father having sex with a wife.

2.) (I might be mixing this up with Jehovah's Witness belief, but I think this is their belief:) They deny the gospel by saying that Jesus' death on the cross was only good enough to get rid of Adam's original sin. Now people have the opportunity of earning their own way into heaven by being a good Mormon. This means that their gospel would be one of works.

3.) They encourage Mormons to get married so that they can have a bunch of spiritual children once they become gods of their own planets. They believe that once they die, as long as they have been good Mormons, they can get their own planet and get to become a god. They can have their own spiritual family.

I see their entire belief system as being heresy.

Therefore, yes, I would say they are teaching a different gospel and a different Jesus. I'm not the judge of anyone's salvation, though. If I had to guess, I would say they are most likely not saved. However whether a person gets saved or not is not up to me.

Yet, I, for one, am not going to declare that no one who attends a Sunday church and has ham for lunch is not going to be saved. I am going to say that those who reject the commands of God as not applicable for their lives, have a limited capacity to experience the love and grace that our Messiah has truly made them accessible to.

I can accept your viewpoint on this. Thank you for not condemning me just because I don't follow dietary laws.

`And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray; and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
(Matthew 24:11-12 YLT)\

I do believe this passage, but once again, we are probably interpreting this differently.

Ever since I have been in college I have been exposed to different false teachings that I reject.

There are New Agers who claim that they have had experience with spirit guides/angels. These "angels" teach them to deny Jesus, to deny God, to deny the reality of sin. They also teach them that they are gods and that they don't need to look outside of themselves for a Savior.

There are "Christian" teachers who are denying Jesus' existence, denying that Jesus rose from the dead, denying that Jesus' blood has any value, denying that there is such a thing as sin, denying that we need a Savior, denying that the prophecies in the Old Testament are about Jesus, denying that Jesus is the only way, denying that Jesus will come back. These individuals, like the New Agers, are saying that all spiritual experiences are good. They are opening themselves up to various spiritual practices -- such as Buddhism, shamanism, spiritism, Hinduism, Wicca, etc.

There are also people who claim to be modern day apostles and prophets who come up with all sorts of false prophecies. They teach people to value spiritual experience over Scripture, and they too are very into angels. They practically worship angels. A prime example of this is the Extreme Prophetic movement -- Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Bob Jones, Kim Clement, Dutch Sheets, C. Peter Wagner, John Crowder, and the like.

Then you have the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel people who teach that God wants you to be healthy, wealthy, and prosperous...and if you're not these things, you are sinning. A lot of the TV preachers and popular Christian authors fall into this camp. They have items available for people to buy -- such as a hankerchief that has been prayed over by some special person. Then they sell it to people for a high price. They also tend to sell a lot of their teachings for ridiculously high prices. They try to tell people that if they sow a seed into their ministries that God will bless them by giving them stuff. Their focus seems to be on money and stuff. People eat this stuff up, and they are being exploited.

Then there are the people who teach things like The Secret and Law of Attraction stuff. Many of these teachings also come from spirit guides and whatnot. They end up teaching pretty much the same stuff as New Agers do.

Then you have certain groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and various other stuff going on that passes itself off as Christianity.

There's another false apostle that I know of that has an online ministry. This person teaches that people need to rely on angels and teaches something similar to what Mormons teach in regard to becoming gods after we die.

I do think that we are in a time in which there are many false prophets and false apostles out there. I think that many people are being led astray by such teachings as the ones I have mentioned here.

[Mark]

How do you handle this passage?

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(John 4:22 KJV)

[youneverletgo]

Mar 9, 2009 7:35:55 GMT -8 Mark said:

How do you handle this passage?

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(John 4:22 KJV)

Looking at that passage in context, Jesus was talking to the Samaritan women at the well, and before I give my interpretation, I'd like to quote the whole interaction between Jesus and the woman.

JN 4:4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

4:7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. )

4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

4:11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

4:13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

4:15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

4:16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."

4:17 "I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

4:19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.

4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

4:25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

JN 4:26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."


It seems to me that in verse 22 Jesus was saying that the Messiah would be Jewish. My pastor actually preached on this passage a few weeks ago. In his sermon he gave some background information here about Samaritans. According to him, the Samaritans did not use the entire Old Testament. They only used the first five books. Therefore they did not have all of the prophecies about the Messiah. This means they only had a partial knowledge about Him.

Towards the end of the conversation Jesus revealed to her that He was the Messiah.

[Mark]

Oh, you mean, like you don't use the entire Old Testament?

[youneverletgo]

Mar 9, 2009 8:58:49 GMT -8 Mark said:

Oh, you mean, like you don't use the entire Old Testament?

The Christian Bible contains the whole Old Testament, so we do consider it to be Scripture....in other words it is still part of our Bible.

We believe what it says about God and what it says about the Messiah.

The difference that we seem to be having here is about following food laws and other laws, which seems to be a common theme throughout this thread.

There seem to be other differences too, but the main one seems too center around dietary laws and such.

[Mark]

So, the distinction is that we believe that following Messiah means following Him in the context He spoke , maintaining the relevence of the cultural definitions and remaining consistent with the values He held as Jewish Rabbi.

Your response seems to be, oh, some of those things just aren't important. Now, I'm a Dad. I have lots of kids. If I say to my son, "Go clean up your room" he isn't free to interpret that statement according to his own standard or expectations. It doesn't mean shove everything under the bed. It doesn't mean go over the clutter with a feather duster. It means put everything in it's proper place and remove anything that doesn't belong. Your response seems to be that you agree that all of His Laws are legitimate; but some of them are just unimportant. If you are saying that you are saved even though you dismiss some of the things that God commanded, I can respond that I think that this is very possible; but you are limiting yourself in the depth of relationship you can have with Him and you are subjecting yourself to His hand of discipline. If you are saying, as many Christians do, that Jesus died on the cross so that I don't have to obey the commands of Scripture, then the Jesus you follow is not the Jesus of the Bible.

[youneverletgo]

Mar 9, 2009 9:25:43 GMT -8 Mark said:

So, the distinction is that we believe that following Messiah means following Him in the context He spoke , maintaining the relevence of the cultural definitions and remaining consistent with the values He held as Jewish Rabbi.

Your response seems to be, oh, some of those things just aren't important. Now, I'm a Dad. I have lots of kids. If I say to my son, "Go clean up your room" he isn't free to interpret that statement according to his own standard or expectations. It doesn't mean shove everything under the bed. It doesn't mean go over the clutter with a feather duster. It means put everything in it's proper place and remove anything that doesn't belong. Your response seems to be that you agree that all of His Laws are legitimate; but some of them are just unimportant. If you are saying that you are saved even though you dismiss some of the things that God commanded, I can respond that I think that this is very possible; but you are limiting yourself in the depth of relationship you can have with Him and you are subjecting yourself to His hand of discipline. If you are saying, as many Christians do, that Jesus died on the cross so that I don't have to obey the commands of Scripture, then the Jesus you follow is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Yes, I do believe that His laws are legitimate, but I do not see myself as having to follow all of them. I don't see why some of them would be required for me to follow, as whether or not a person follows them makes no difference in how I relate to other people. I don't see how following all of these food laws brings glory to God or brings other people to Him. What I eat makes no difference to another person, and it makes no difference in my standing before God.

In the culture of today, following the food laws is not going to cause someone else to want to pursue God, and I see it as doing absolutely nothing. I'm not Jewish, and I'm not part of Jewish culture. Furthermore, I don't see any of the NT authors telling believers in Jesus that in order to be saved they have to follow the food laws. There is simply no relevance for me to follow the dietary laws. The same is true for the clothing laws.

And no, I don't believe that just because Jesus died on the cross for me that no command of God matters anymore. Does following God's commands matter for salvation? No...because I don't think that salvation is dependent on whether or not a person follows law. However, this doesn't mean that I think that Christians can go live their life any way that they want to, regardless of any of God's commands. As many Christians will tell you, grace is not a license to sin.

There are certain things that we Christians know are wrong, according to what the Holy Spirit reveals to us, and according to both the Old and New Testaments. I think that any time a person acts in a way that is not loving towards another person or towards God, it is sin. I also think that there are things that are clearly sinful according to the Bible -- some of these things include: homosexuality, witchcraft, divination, communicating with the dead, and breaking the Ten Commandments (though we may have a different view of what these commandments are). (not an exhaustive list)

I know that other things are sin, but I don't know whether or not there are specific Bible verses that say these things -- I just know they are sin because they are harmful to other people, and God would not want people to do these things:
sexually abusing children, physically abusing children, physically abusing spouse, exploiting other people for financial gain, buying/selling drugs, etc. (not an exhaustive list)

So do I think that God has standards that He wants people to live by? Yes. I don't think that just because that Jesus came and died that people are free to do whatever they want.

I"m just saying that I don't see why, as a Christian, I would be required to follow certain laws in the Old Testament that do not seem to matter in the Christian life.

[Mark]

Kids are enthralled with park brownies. You may have never heard of them referred to as such. They are brown, smell kind of funny, sometimes hard and crusty, sometimes soft and gooey. You often find them in the grass at the park. And if you've guessed by now, they're disgusting, coming from the latter end of a dog.

Kids don't seem to fin any problem with them at all. I mean, what's wrong with them. They are moldable. You can draw with them. There are all sorts of fabulous applications, not to mention the curious responses they get from the adults around.

It is the same way with God's Laws. We don't necessarily see the problem with them; but God does. Do we believe God more than we believe our own experiences or do we reject His Words because we don't understand their relevance?

I'm not perfect and I am more guilty of sin today than I was probably five minutes ago. But the difference is that I define sin based upon God's Word, not on whether I consider His Word applicable to me or not.