Not raised Jewish

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom sister,

I would like to echo Natan's comments, "Welcome to the family"! I think that if you have made the decision to join yourself to the Elohim of Yisrael and His covenants, and that you will join yourself to the Jewish people through thick and thin... than whether or not you have Jewish blood, you can consider yourself as having converted to Messianic Judaism. Whether one wants to admit it or not, it - is - a form of Judaism. I will pray that Adonai brings your husband to the same place.

In the name of Yeshua our Messiah,

Reuel

[Mpossoff]

Isn't it the fathers seed that "determines"?

Example the seed of Abraham. Biblically speaking isn't offspring determined by the fathers seed?

Marc

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom Marc,

Tribal identification is decided through the father, though Jewish identification is decided through the mother. There are some opinions that one can be Jewish through their father or mother, but this is not the prevailing thought. Lineage through the mother was probably determined long ago as a way of preserving the Jewish people during intense persecution (though this is only my opinion and not necessarily a fact).

Shalom,
Natanel

[Mpossoff]

Thanks Natanel

Growing up I was always told the reason not to marry a gentile is because your children wouldn't be Jewish.

Where does the Jewish indentification from the mother come from? Is it from the Old Testament or is it man made?

Marc

notzriyehudi said:

Shalom Marc,

Tribal identification is decided through the father, though Jewish identification is decided through the mother. There are some opinions that one can be Jewish through their father or mother, but this is not the prevailing thought. Lineage through the mother was probably determined long ago as a way of preserving the Jewish people during intense persecution (though this is only my opinion and not necessarily a fact).

Shalom,
Natanel

[Chizuk Emunah]

There are actually many reasons not to marry a gentile, the least of which being the likelihood of assimilation. But let me get back to your question.

I grabbed this off of jewfaq.org and thought it might be helpful:
reprinted from jewfaq.org
The does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.

In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [ie, the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (ie, a Jew).

On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

[Mpossoff]

Natanel the reason I am asking is because the Pastor that I have weekly studies with explained to me "biblically" that it's the fathers seed.

He knows that I'm a Jew married a Gentile and we have two boys. I told him according to Jewish law that our children were not considered Jews. When I first got saved I told him our children weren't Jews.

He told me that isn't so. That's it's the fathers seed that is the determinant. He told me that's from rabbinical law and not from the bible. It's the seed. He said that a man only has a seed.

This is what he told me and that's why I'm asking again.

Now I know that Jewish law is matrilineal decent versus patrilineal decent.

I've tried to do some study on this and according to the bible there isn't any clear answer.

So I was asking where matrilineal decent came from.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

Forgive me I'm fighting the fact that the doctrine is correct.

That I was fighting it because my wife is a Gentile and we have two children and I want them to be considered Jewish.

But I know realize that I was just a Jew in "name" that a "real" Jew if I'm making sense.

Marc

[Chizuk Emunah]

It's not so much a matter of whether or not the premise is correct or not. But, at least you do know that there is a biblical foundation for it. I can understand your concern about your wife and children. Shoot me a pm and I'll see what I can do to help.

I'm not sure what you mean about being a Jew in name only. I will say this however, a "real" Jew is one that is true to the and HaShem. On that note, let me recommend this article: Not Subject to the Law of G-d?

Shalom,
Natanel

[Pioneer]

notzriyehudi said:

It's not so much a matter of whether or not the premise is correct or not. But, at least you do know that there is a biblical foundation for it. I can understand your concern about your wife and children. Shoot me a pm and I'll see what I can do to help.

I'm not sure what you mean about being a Jew in name only. I will say this however, a "real" Jew is one that is true to the and HaShem. On that note, let me recommend this article: Not Subject to the Law of G-d?

Shalom,
Natanel

Todah rabah, in all my studies I have missed studing Yashnet.
It always amazes me when I read things that I could have written, things that were revealed to me when the Ruach came upon me. I keep discovering "Deja Vous all over again." when I find sites like this. I am loving it.

Shalom Natanel.

[Chizuk Emunah]

pioneer said:

Todah rabah, in all my studies I have missed studing Yashnet.
It always amazes me when I read things that I could have written, things that were revealed to me when the Ruach came upon me. I keep discovering "Deja Vous all over again." when I find sites like this. I am loving it.

Shalom Natanel.

Yeah Yashanet is a great resource. Lots of good material there.

[Tzav_laTzav]

I certainly don't intend this to put anyone down, but I don't understand the great desire among many Messianics to be considered "Jewish." Certainly, I understand that "Jewish" can mean either Hebrew or one practicing Judaism, but so many goy want so desperately for people to recognize them as "Jews"! Why? Why can we not be satisfied with the way HaShem made us? Certainly, He was satisfied, or He would have changed His mind and put us back.

I believe we should look at ourselves and say, "This is the way HaShem made me, bless His Name, and I will honor Him by serving Him as He made me to be -- Jewish or Goy."

Certainly, all who believe and trust in Messiah are of Israel, but being of Israel does not make us all Jews. If someone is adopted into a family, that adoption does not change their national origin, their skin color, or their physical attributes: they remain what they were originally, except that they have the full rights, privileges, and responsibilities as natural-born children.

Regarding responsibility, right now in most places, it is relatively easy to be a Jew. While there certainly is both prejudice and persecution, it is held somewhat at bay in most places. I have often wondered, for all those who are striving and converting to "become" Jews just how Jewish they will be when the persecution comes nearer their doorstep. Will the kippot and tzitzit disappear? Will there just be little nail holes where mazzuzot had been? How many do you think will still be in your shuls? Who will suddenly decide that Shabbat is not that important? Where the proverbial "rubber meets the road," who will be left standing?

[Yitzchak]

tzavlatzav said:

I certainly don't intend this to put anyone down, but I don't understand the great desire among many Messianics to be considered "Jewish." Certainly, I understand that "Jewish" can mean either Hebrew or one practicing Judaism, but so many goy want so desperately for people to recognize them as "Jews"! Why? Why can we not be satisfied with the way HaShem made us? Certainly, He was satisfied, or He would have changed His mind and put us back.

I believe we should look at ourselves and say, "This is the way HaShem made me, bless His Name, and I will honor Him by serving Him as He made me to be -- Jewish or Goy."

Certainly, all who believe and trust in Messiah are of Israel, but being of Israel does not make us all Jews. If someone is adopted into a family, that adoption does not change their national origin, their skin color, or their physical attributes: they remain what they were originally, except that they have the full rights, privileges, and responsibilities as natural-born children.

Regarding responsibility, right now in most places, it is relatively easy to be a Jew. While there certainly is both prejudice and persecution, it is held somewhat at bay in most places. I have often wondered, for all those who are striving and converting to "become" Jews just how Jewish they will be when the persecution comes nearer their doorstep. Will the kippot and tzitzit disappear? Will there just be little nail holes where mazzuzot had been? How many do you think will still be in your shuls? Who will suddenly decide that Shabbat is not that important? Where the proverbial "rubber meets the road," who will be left standing?

Welcome to the forums, and all I can say is a very big

AMEIN V'AMEIN

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Tzav_laTzav]

Thank you so much for your welcome and your understanding of my very blunt post.

[Yitzchak]

tzavlatzav said:

Thank you so much for your welcome and your understanding of my very blunt post.

Those words could have been written by me. As a matter of fact, I had a conversation with a Rabbi on this subject the very day you posted this, and stated some of the same things almost word for word.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Tzav_laTzav]

That's good to know. Thank you again.