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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 20, 2004 10:26:22 GMT -8
Curt, I commend you, and everyone else whom has had this attitude. In general, this is what I am looking for on this forum.  As long as the analysis is not promoting sin, this is the right attitude to have. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Kallah on Jun 20, 2004 13:04:46 GMT -8
B"H Curt:  Thank you for taking the time to clarify your point, and for supplying the references. H-shem reward the humbleness of your reply. May He reward you with discernment; the wisdom to know the difference in all matters of discussion.The Holy One, Blessed is He, reward the sincerity of your love for D'var H-shem(Word of El-him), and let it be your delight day and night.Amein b'ahava Yeshua, Kallah |
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Post by GregBenYisrael on Jun 20, 2004 20:16:43 GMT -8
I wrote this articule about Sheol, dead and resurrection:
Sheol
Sheol is the Hebrew word for “the place of the dead”, in Greek is translated as Hades. It was created by HaShem after He created man in the sixth day:
“16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”<br>Genesis 2
At this moment the command given by His Word created two things: a law of death and a place to put anyone who broke that law, this place is the Sheol. Now we can define the transitions to and from the Sheol, to die means the soul is taken captive to Sheol and the opposite, named resurrection, is to bring back the soul from Sheol.
HaShem created us to live among us, for a dwelling place, but the souls in Sheol are separated from His presence. So the idea of creating the Sheol does not look consistent with His creation. Why HaShem would like to create such a prison for the souls He just created a little while before?
May be it was not His idea in the first place; it was someone else’s …<br>
“1 It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
2 And over these three presidents; of whom Daniel was first: that the princes might give accounts unto them, and the king should have no damage.
3 Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm.”<br>Daniel 6
The relationship between HaShem and man was perfect in the beginning. There were other angels that were not pleased with the idea that JaShem was going to set man as a steward of His entire kingdom.
“4 Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him.5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.”<br>Daniel 6
After some thought they came up with a plan, since they could not find any weakness they were going to use man’s very strength to take him down: HaShem Law.
“6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.
7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.”<br>Daniel 6
So they went and suggested to HaShem to create the Law of death and the Sheol so whoever broke that law will be thrown in the Sheol. HaShem agreed and created both and commanded man regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The snare was already set.
“12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.
14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.”<br>Daniel 6
The accusers came to JaShem to enforce the law and condemn man to Sheol. They accuse us day and night.
“15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.”<br>Daniel 6
The sentence is executed and a prophetic message is given: HaShem himself will deliver us.
“17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.”<br>Daniel 6
The Sheol exit was shut and sealed so no one could come out.
“18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of music brought before him: and his sleep went from him.”<br>Daniel 6
HaShem has a plan to redeem us from the hand of the adversaries. Rescue mankind from Sheol and punish the conspirators. Let’s take a look a how the conspirators will be punished:
“24 And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den”<br>Daniel 6
“14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.”<br>Ezekiel 31
All of the conspirators in heaven will be cast into the Sheol, which is the very instrument they used against their victims.
In the book of Esther we find a similar story.
“9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”<br>1 Timothy 4
Yeshua JaMashiaj saved all mankind, which means all mankind will be resurrected. That explains why there is Judgment day appointed because only the righteous will enter His kingdom. The wicked will end up in the lake of fire.
“39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”<br>John 6
The resurrection will take place at the last day.
“4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”<br>Revelation 20
Here we have two resurrections. The participants of the first resurrection were beheaded during the “Great tribulation” and “the rest of the dead” are resurrected afterwards at the last day (John 6-39). There must be an event at an appointed time that separates these two groups of people.
“12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”<br>Revelation 14
This is the event that separates the two groups; the ones who die before from the ones who die after. There is a blessing for the ones that die last. This fulfills “But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first”<br>
“25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.”<br>Acts 16
In the midst of the times Sheol exit gate is opened.
“26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”<br>1 Corinthians 15
Once everyone is removed from Sheol, it shall be destroyed.
“14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”<br>Revelation 20
Shalom
GregBenYisrael
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 20, 2004 20:58:15 GMT -8
Shalom, and welcome GregBenYisrael! Thank you for sharing your insights...interesting ideas on Sheol. I look forward to your future posts here at Ahavat Elohim Discussion Forums. B'Shem Yeshua, Reuel |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 22, 2004 13:53:30 GMT -8
I was very interested to read the words about Sheol. I have no knowledge of Hebrew other than what i can get out of strong's concordance. Forgive my humble Gentile opinion but a simpler explanation of what I have read is that Sheol is just the grave in ground. Even God said unto dust shalt thou return. It seems the important part of the discussion is not where the soul or spirit or what have you is located but whether there is any thought or experience. I believe the  teaches that when a person dies they have no thought or experience until they are resurrected. I must also apologize that I have no interest in what any "authority" says on the subject. The word of God is designed to be understood by all who study. Too many in the "Christian" world have already been led astray by "Authorities". Only those who seek the truth of God with prayer for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and study for themselves will discern the truth. You can't take somebody elses word for it. Furthermore you can't base a belief on a verse or two. The Word of God is consistent. All of Scripture must be compared to find the truth. If one or two verses seem to disagree then you haven't understood the truth. Keep praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and study until you find agreement. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 22, 2004 14:57:11 GMT -8
Good wisdom Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by GregBenYisrael on Jun 25, 2004 19:06:58 GMT -8
Forgive my humble Gentile opinion but a simpler explanation of what I have read is that Sheol is just the grave in ground. Even God said unto dust shalt thou return. There is a big difference between the hebrew words "Sheol" and "Qeber". While Sheol is a place for the soul, "Qeber" is the place to store the physical body after somebody dies. In KJV translation of the Scriptures miss translated both Sheol and Qeber as grave or burial place, which is ok for Qeber but not for Sheol. Also some times these words were translated as pit or worst yet as hell. B'shem Yeshua HaMashiaj GregBenYisrael |
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Post by Rick on Jan 3, 2006 18:54:32 GMT -8
I have a rather simplistic view on this. First, since HaShem is the Creator, all that 'is' was made by Him. That being said, Since He created both time and space and all that is therein; He is outside of, and therefore independent of, and not bound by, either. He knows the "end from the beginning" or "before Avraham was, I AM". In regards to the "saved' or "righteous"; to "be absent from the body is to be present with the L-rd". So, when we die and "shed the mortal coil" to "be present with the L-rd" we cross from the temporal to the infinite/eternal. So I would think that to the individual there would be no apparent 'gap' between dying and seeing "That Day", whether you died in 1500BC or 15 min. from now, it would seem to everyone that they 'arrived' at the same "time". There would be no need for "soul sleep" if you understand that once you have left the space/time continuum, 'when' or how 'long', no longer apply or have meaning. This would reconcile the fact that "Moses was seen alive after he died", the talmudin (on the mount of 'transfiguration') were being allowed a glimpse of that which is 'outside' of time. A brief moment where the infinite was revealed to the temporal. Just a thought for your consideration, or.....dismantling Future bliss can neither be imagined, explained, nor described. We know nothing of its nature, form, greatness, or beauty, its quantity or quality. This much one should know, the phrase, "the world to come," does not imply that it is a world yet to be called into existence; it exists already, but the phrase is employed to describe the life into which those who are in the present stage of existence will be transposed when they throw off this mortal coil. [Midrash Tanhuma] Yom tov b'Yeshua Rick |
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Post by Blake on Jan 3, 2006 22:16:12 GMT -8
- Revelation 6:9-11 Why would you take such symbolism as literal knowing that when in vision symbolism is always used in the Patmos Seer's apocalypse. Using this as a basis for your argument is as faulty as supposing Cain's blood actually somehow grew a voice and called out to G-d. "And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength; you shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth." (Genesis 4:10-12 RSV)" Both are examples of figurative launguage. "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. (WEB) Rev 22:12 Messiah's reward comes at his second advent, not at death. If the righteous already have received their reward at death, for reason should there be a ressurection? For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (WEB) Rom 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Those who have not the gospel do not have an "immortal soul". The idea of an immortal soul is foreign to both Judaism and its scripture and is only by influence of Hellenism. "to keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ that the blessed and only ruler will make manifest at the proper time, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal power. Amen." 1 Tim 6:14-16 God alone has immortality and the ability to bestow it upon man. Upon the fall immortality was no longer man's natural state. (Matthew) {25:46} And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. If the reward is everlasting life, then the the punishment has to be everlasting death or destruction. Not eternal life in hellfire. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die… The Tanakh makes absolutely no mention of saints dying and being brought to heaven as the pagans believed. Instead, the ressurection is confirmed. Daniel {12:2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to  and everlasting contempt. If one was already recieving eternal life in heaven, why would they need to be ressurected? |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 4, 2006 5:16:56 GMT -8
Rick,
I agree completely. We are definitely on the same page here.
Blake,
You made some very good points, but I liked this one in particular:
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Post by NaildWithHim on Jan 4, 2006 12:24:04 GMT -8
Greg BenYisrael wrote:
That's not true-
(Psalms 139:7-8 HNV)
Where could I go from your Spirit? Or where could I flee from your presence? If I ascend up into heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in She'ol, behold, you are there!
Shalom
Naild
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Post by NaildWithHim on Jan 4, 2006 12:33:08 GMT -8
EDITED BY ADMIN.
Large articles simply pasted into discussion threads is not acceptable. Please discuss the topic in smaller posts using your own words and/or smaller quotes of other's material. Further posts that do not adhere to this will be removed.
Thank you for your consideration,
Reuel
[/color]
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Post by Blake on Jan 4, 2006 16:50:03 GMT -8
[/quote]
Yes, this is main problem with the idea that the saints attain eternal life at death. The ressurection is mentioned over and over again in Scripture and I believe these ideas of reward at death conflicts with the idea.
Sheol I see as metaphor for death itself, not an underworld.
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Post by Bernie on Mar 11, 2006 22:49:52 GMT -8
Reuel,
Shalom,
I was surprised to see you state that "soul sleep" was a catholic doctrine. Since I support the idea of "dead until the resurrection" ...what others have called 'soul sleep'. I happen to know a couple of things that show in fact:
Catholics support the idea that "you will never die".
This was one of that areas that Martin Luther disagreed with the catholic church:
Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when are awaked, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.—An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1553, folio 151v.
But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.—"Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, in Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp. 287, 288.
Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless, he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way.6 —"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol. 1, cols. 1759, 1760.
Here is another sample:
We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds . . .
Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is, had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceded them in death.—A Compend of Luther's Theology, edited by Hugh Thomson Ker, Jr., p. 242.
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Post by Bernie on Mar 11, 2006 23:06:01 GMT -8
""""This would reconcile the fact that "Moses was seen alive after he died", the talmudin (on the mount of 'transfiguration') were being allowed a glimpse of that which is 'outside' of time. A brief moment where the infinite was revealed to the temporal.""""
Or an temporal past event was revealed to the temporal present. Smile
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teaches that when a person dies they have no thought or experience until they are resurrected.
and everlasting contempt.
