"Soul Sleep"

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Ah yes, the doctrine of “soul sleep”. This is a hotly debated subject in Christianity.

There are only a few humans born to this earth that are now in heaven:

"And it came to pass, as they departed from Him, Peter said to Yeshua, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Eliyah: not knowing what he said." Luke 9:33 (Peter didn't know who was with Yeshua except throught the power of the Set-apart Spirit for our benefit.)

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because Elohim had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased Elohim". Hebrews 11:5

(Enoch and Eliyah are anti-types of the 144,000 that will be translated at His Second Coming without seeing death, Moses is an anti-type of the resurrected saints at that time that will be brought forth from their graves.)

Purgatory and saints going to heaven upon death are Catholic doctrines that hold no weight in Scripture. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Eccles. 9:5-6 ("Anything done under the sun" refers to this life. It is over the moment we die until our Redeemer's Second Coming.)

"Yeshua answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of Elohim. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of Elohim in heaven. But as concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by Elohim, saying, I am the Elohim of Abraham, and the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob? Elohim is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:29-32

(Because we know that the Patriarchs are dead we can know that He is speaking of the "living" as only those born again in faith.) "Yeshua answered and said to him, Surely, surely, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of Elohim", John 3:3.

(Born again in faith) "I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Yah, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20

(It is not told who were among the saints resurrected at the time of His resurrection,
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many." Matthew 27:52-53. The Patriarchs knew their Savior.

"And have hope toward Elohim, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15 "But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to Elohim, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."1 Cor. 15:20-25.

(So the dead in Messiah sleep until He comes just as do those who do not know Him) They sleep and we wait patiently for His awesome Return when,
"For this we say to you by the word of YHVH, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Master shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Elohim: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Master. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thes. 4:15-18.

In His Love,
Yochanah

I wouldn't say that this is strictly a Catholic doctrine, as we can see this demonstrated in the Jewish scriptures on several occasions. Here is just two examples to chew on...

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of G'd, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
- Revelation 6:9-11

First the question is, "where is this altar"? If it is in heaven...so are they. And, if they are wondering when The L-rd will avenge His enemies, obviously they know something, and are conscience. And, we see this again in the following passage...

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, AlleluYah: for the L'rd G'd omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
- Revelation 19:6-8

How can the dead that know nothing proclaim, "AlleluYah: for the L'rd G'd omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready"? Of course this is in perfect harmony with the story of Lazarus, and the rich man, and the saying of Yeshua found in Matthew 22:31-32.

As for the following passage...

"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
- Ecc 9:4-5

There is a lesson being taught here. And, I believe it speaks to the futility of evil men. If the above passage is teaching about the righteous believers, it will have to comply with the whole of scripture. Let's take a look at the passage in a little more detail...

"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

For the righeous saints is this true? Is a living righteous saint (whom would be compaired to a dog here) better than a dead saint? What does the scripture say?...

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Immerser: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
- Matthew 11:11

The next passage that we are looking at in Ecclesiastes states...

"For the living know that they shall die"

But, the question is...shall the righteous ever really taste death?...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
- John 8:51

And, for the last section of Ecc. 9:5...

"but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

We have already seen in Revelation 19:6-8, Revelation 6:9-11 that these righteous saints whom died do know something. Furthermore, we also saw in these passages that they do have a further reward, and they indeed have not been forgotten. So, I think to say that this passage is Ecclesiastes is speaking of the righteous saints is doubtful.

Any thoughts?

Shalom,

Reuel

[beth]

Yeshua said Where I am you shall also be!

The following post was moved from the thread; "Mel Gibon's Church" - Reuel

Yes indeed I knew this was coming-I must say I have this firm assurance-Christ's inheritance is also mine in heaven and earth because he is my father and he died in my stead I shall not see death. I live in death to my flesh yet unto God I live. I am crucified with Christ and now I live. because He endured all things for my sake I know that my God has turned aside from his wrath for my sins this is my salvation. I live with ilness and sorrow constantly but the Lord has given me His spirit of His name to live and worship my Lord . Because the Spirit of the Lord makes me to overcome all things and it is of Gods own doing so it (HE) is undieng and preserves my flesh . As David said can the dead worship you from the grave? Because my God is the living God and the God of the living I shall not see death or sorrow I shall see His face and His glory, I have and I know that also as Solomon said my love for you is as strong as the grave- I do not fear the grave because The Lord has already concored it in his love that I might not know the sorrows of any seperation of God wether in life or death or or by principatities of darkness because nothing can seperate me from the love of God . My God does not live in Graves but in heaven so I will not have it that way either not in my mind or spirit because I live to bless Him and not to think hos salvation a little thing-Is it sutch a large thing for God that I not see death-after all He has said He would not give His glory to another and He has claimed me as His own.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Yeshua said Where I am you shall also be!

Ah, very good point Beth.

Shalom,

Reuel

[el Gusano]

My Hebrew is weak, but my Greek is good. The entire verse (John 14:3) literally says:

"And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be."

It is future.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Good point. Any comments on the scriptures that I provided?

[Curt]

Reuel: "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, AlleluYah: for the L'rd G'd omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
- Revelation 19:6-8
Curt: My interepretation of this verse is that it is describing a future event. 'AlleluYah' is being said by the multitude at the marriage of the Lamb. The marriage of the Lamb and His church doesn't occur until after all the saints have been taken to heaven. Which occurs at the end of the age when Jesus returns to get His saints. He returns to get the living righteous and to ressurect the righteous dead. This is the first ressurection. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable which is designed to make a point. The things occurring in this parable are not literal.

Reuel: " For the living know that they shall die"

But, the question is...shall the righteous ever really taste death?...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
- John 8:51

Curt: Yes the righteous will really taste death because the wages of sin is death and all have sinned. That's why Jesus is returning the second time to ressurect the righteous dead. The righteous living here on earth before His return still alive.

In your second verse Jesus is talking about a man not seeing the second death which the wicked will see.

Of course I didn't have time to comment on all your verses but will do so when I have time.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Than how do we reconcile the fact that Moses was seen alive after he died (Luke 9:33). And, how do we reconcile that the following passage?...

"I am the G'd of Abraham, and the G'd of Isaac, and the G'd of Jacob? G'd is not the G'd of the dead, but of the living."
- Matthew 22:32

The word "living" in the last part of verse 32 is a present term.

Don't get me wrong Curt, you do have some good points.

Shalom brother,

Reuel

[el Gusano]

Dead is "nekros", living is "zao" (root words). "Nekros" is the word used for physically dead or the lifeless and also those who have not been made spiritually alive (generally; there are exceptions). "Zao" is a present, active, participle (treated as a noun). He is not the God of the dead, but of living ones.

"Thanatos" death, which can mean physically dead (but not generally), generally refers to the death of the soul (loss of life, not loss of salvation), which cannot occur until one lives spiritually. (Also, thanatos is frequently preceded by the definite article "the" and is referring to a specific death, so there is less confusion.)

[Kallah]

B"H Mishpochah:

I enjoyed reading your posts. It is pleasing to the Eternal One, Blessed is He, when His children take the time to read, study, and discuss scripture. It of itself breathes chai(life) in us. Now, that's a thought .... for His Devar(Word) that is emes(truth), is life, and it is eternal.

The topic of "Soul Sleep" has been one discussed through the ages. In Yeshua's time, two of the most powerful sects of Judaism (Pharisees and Saducees) major debates had to do with the question of afterlife.
The Pharisees believed that people would be raised from the dead on Judgment Day, and the Saducees did not. The Sadducee sect died out after Yerushalayim was destroyed in 70 AD, so most of what we have known as Judaism to now is derived from what the Pharisees believed.

The Talmud and Midrash explain, "..the soul maintains a relationship with the body for one year after death, and this was considered a year of purgatory, at least for the wicked..." After that, the righteous go to gain entrance to Paradise (Gan Eden) and the wicked cast into Geihinnom. (Gei Hinnom, which literally means "Hinnom Valley," the source of the Greek word "Gehenna" which usually translated "Hell". ) (El Gusano, you may correct me on the Greek .... .... I am weak there. Learning, though...very slowly.)

At the coming of Mashiach, the soul was expected to return to the dust and the body reconstituted (resurrection). Opinions also differed among the ancient rabbis as to what the state of the soul was in between. [Similar to the discussions that exist today among believers, with regard to this topic.]
Even among some rabbis of old, some seem to have believed in "soul sleep" while others believed the soul would retain full consciousness even in the disembodied state. Also disputed, was whether or not, only the righteous are resurrected, or the evil also (in order to stand judgment). [Good reference --- check the Encyclopedia Judaica on articles on 'Death' and 'Afterlife']

Orthodox Judaism (present day) maintains a belief in bodily resurrection when Mashiach comes. Reform Judaism abandoned the notion of physical resurrection but maintained the concept of the immortal soul (at least in some sense).

For Messianic Jewish and Gentile Believers {Christians}, the Brit Chadasha [New Testament] answers some of these questions ---- I read something that someone stated, and it's kind of stuck in my head; so, I share this quote: "...that a Bible with the New Testament is like a Bible with the answers in the back." (Well put, don't you think?)

Myself, like all of you, have many questions, on many things. I have emunah I will
learn the answers....perhaps now,later on (or after). I trust in Devar H-shem, every hidden thing will be revealed.

All points considered----the Brit Chadasha towards the afterlife in words of Yeshua.. Yochanan{John} 3:16-18. "...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." [KJV] ---- pretty much sums it up. B"H

b'ahava Yeshua, Kallah

[el Gusano]

There are many words translated as "Hell", which most people relate to the lake of fire; hence, they mentally make the connection that Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus and the lake of fire are all the same. This started in 1611 (I think the KJV was the first to do this) and the influence was there for later translations. Literal translations don't do this, and it makes for interesting comparisons. (If you want to know a few, drop me a line.)

Also, something else that started with the KJV was the willy-nilly translating of words in both the OT and NT, such as "soul" and "spirit"; two different words, translated variously and interchangeably, which leads to much confusion.

I think that if the Bible was taught in the original languages, there would be much less dissension and fewer sects. There would still be some, but not as many. I think this is especially true of the NT, because it is much easier to translate accurately if you take the time, and as you said, it has the answers and helps clarify some of the difficult passages in the OT. (Part of the reason the Hebrew was translated into Greek in the LXX was because fewer people could understand Hebrew, but Greek was considered permanent.)

It was recently pointed out to me that difficult passages sometimes occur because of translational problems, but most of the time because God wants us to stop and take a look at those passages and think about them.

[Kallah]

el said:

There are many words translated as "Hell", which most people relate to the lake of fire; hence, they mentally make the connection that Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus and the lake of fire are all the same. This started in 1611 (I think the KJV was the first to do this) and the influence was there for later translations. Literal translations don't do this, and it makes for interesting comparisons. (If you want to know a few, drop me a line.)

Yes, I would be interested. I will drop you an email line.
Efcharisto' ..... Shalom. -- Kallah

[Curt]

Reuel,
"Than how do we reconcile the fact that Moses was seen alive after he died (Luke 9:33). And, how do we reconcile that the following passage?..."

Curt: I could of mentioned that Moses was seen alive in my last reply but was hampered by time and knew you would respond with that. Not only is Moses alive in heaven but so is Elijah and Enoch and possibly a few more when the tombs were opened at Jesus crucifixion during the earthquake. These are the exceptions. The Bible also says David has not ascended to heaven. This means he is in his grave dead. Since I don't have a computer and use the school's computer I am somewhat hampered in my replies. I don't have my Bible with me this time or last time so I can't give you Book, chapter and verse at this time but I will get it for you. You probably already know of the verse. Which makes me ask would it be possible to put a computer Bible like Biblegate on your website. Anyway my point is this the vast majority are dead in there graves and the exceptions are listed in the Bible. It is much like the laws of the land, there are laws which most generally hold true the majority of the time but when there are exceptions the law notes them. Moses represents one of the ressurected dead and Elijah and Enoch represent ones who are still alive at His coming. Moses died but was ressurected. You will remember Satan contested God over the body of Moses. Elijah and Enoch represent the living who are alive at Jesus's coming.

Reuel: ""I am the G'd of Abraham, and the G'd of Isaac, and the G'd of Jacob? G'd is not the G'd of the dead, but of the living."
- Matthew 22:32
"The word "living" in the last part of verse 32 is a present term.

Curt: Again I wish I had the Bible verse directly in front of me so I could see the context. So my answer will be without seeing it's context. I believe the word living is a future term. We know that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died. These three will be ressurected upon Jesus's return because they are not mentioned among the exceptions. This verse is speaking of a time in the future after Jesus has returned and ressurected the righteous in the first ressurection. So indeed they are alive at that time as are all the other righteous saints. But the wicked dead are stilll in their graves for another 1000 years. The reason God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is because they are among the righteous and are alive at that time. God is not the God of the dead because the dead are the wicked.

Reuel: "And, for the last section of Ecc. 9:5...

"but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

We have already seen in Revelation 19:6-8, Revelation 6:9-11 that these righteous saints whom died do know something. Furthermore, we also saw in these passages that they do have a further reward, and they indeed have not been forgotten. So, I think to say that this passage is Ecclesiastes is speaking of the righteous saints is doubtful.

Curt: Ecc.9:5 is speaking of all the dead whether righteous or wicked. Once a person (soul) dies two things happen. There spirit or (breath) returns to God and the body turns to dust. Jesus made Adam out of the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. Medical doctors would agree once the breath ceases then oxygen ceases going to the brain and then you become brain-dead. You can no longer think, you have no memory because your brain turns to dust. They no longer have any reward here on earth while dead but will when Jesus returns to ressurect and give them immortality.

Reuel: " And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Curt: This verse is symbolic as much of Revelation is also symbolic. It is not unlike a verse in Genesis where God told Cain Abel's blood cried out to him. We know it is symbolic or a figure of speech because blood cannot cry out. The same is true of the verse in Revelation the souls of the slain cannot cry out because they are dead. But if the souls could cry out or Abel's blood cry out that is what they would say. How much longer do we have to wait for your return. The answer is until the rest of your fellow saints are slain.

Reuel: " For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
- Ecc 9:4-5

Curt: The reason a living dog is better than a dead lion is because a living person can still make a decision to accept Christ but the dead person (wicked or righteous)gets no second chance. Once he dies unsaved he can't change his mind and accept Jesus because the dead know not anything and there memory is gone. They can no longer make decisions. It's over for them. The righteous saint is not being compared to a living dog. The living dog is the wicked but it is better for him to be alive than dead because he still has a chance to change his mind and accept Jesus.

Reuel: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Immerser: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Curt: This verse is saying whoever is born again of the spirit is in the Kingdom of God and is greater than the greatest man born of women which the verse says there is none greater than John. It makes sense. The greatest person here on earth before Jesus return is not greater than the least person in the kingdom of heaven.

[Curt]

Kallah,
"All points considered----the Brit Chadasha towards the afterlife in words of Yeshua.. Yochanan{John} 3:16-18. "...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." [KJV] ---- pretty much sums it up. B"H

Curt: Good verse. Just wanted to clarify shall not perish refers to the second death. All will perish the first death with the few exceptions the Bible mentions.

[Kallah]

Curt said:

Curt: Good verse. Just wanted to clarify shall not perish refers to the second death. All will perish the first death with the few exceptions the Bible mentions.

Curt: Shalom!
I humbly ask....please explain your opinion/comment, and note your references. I believe there is much we can learn from one another. I appreciate constructive correction. However, I am not clear if my quoting from KJV was inviting an hermeneutics application. I quoted the verse from KJV; it is a version most commonly used
by believers. Perhaps your intention was to share a teaching? Please do, I am open to your sharing.

---------------------------

May I humbly, share .....

"Perish" is an antonym for "everlasting life." The negation "should not perish (KJV, me apoletai) is literally translated "may not perish" (Marshall in Nestle’s Interlinear Greek-English New Testament).

from Brit Chadasha .... Yochanan 3:16 (OJB)
"For H-shem so had ahavah[agape] for the Olam Hazeh(this world) that H-shem gave the matanah(gift) of
H-shem's Ben Yechid (only Son) so that whosoever has emunah(faith) in Him may not be ne'evad (lost, perish, be ruined with destruction), but find Chayyyei Olam[everlasting life]."

b'ahava Yeshua, Kallah

[Curt]

Kallah,
I may have not been to clear in my last comment. I didn't have an available Bible to document but do now. The point I was trying to make was there is a first death for all people with a few exceptions such as Elijah and Enoch who were translated to heaven. Once Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden by eating the fruit of the tree in the midst of the Garden they were under a curse and would eventually die.

"And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden; God has said 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."Genesis 3:2-3
Satan lied to Eve and said she would not die.

"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die." Genesis 3:4
What I'm trying to convey is the lie that Satan told is still being told today. That lie being you don't really die when you die but some kind of spiritual soul floats up to heaven. A soul with a consciousness still existing after death is a continuation of Satan's deception. The following verse previously quoted by Reuel already shows this lack of consciousness.

"For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward. For the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5

There is no consciousness of the dead until the first ressurection.

"..........And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until thethousand years were finished. This is the first ressurection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first ressurection. Over such the second death has no power........Revelation 20:4-6

I guess my point is just that those who believe on Him do perish the first death but are ressurected and don't perish the second death. I'm not sure we even disagree I just wanted to clarify perish refers to the second death. Here are more verses to support the idea.

"He who has an ear; let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." Rev. 2:11 Then Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death." Rev 20:14
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexuallly immoral, lsorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev 21:8

I enjoy everyones analysis whether I agree or not. It' makes it interesting.