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Post by Zandurian on Aug 17, 2007 3:24:07 GMT -8
n? That is, does it teach that Messiah will ultimately redeem the souls of all men back to their creator? I don't see the threat of eternal torment for the wicked/lost (as taught by modern Christianity) existing under the law and the prophets as I have read it. Is my assessment accurate? Thanks for any insight from an Hebraic point of view on this.
- Zandy
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 17, 2007 4:57:56 GMT -8
This is a topic of controversy even on these boards. R'eu'el and Mark will undoubtedly say that the  and the Nevi'im teach eternal torment for those who are not redeemed. Natan'el and I will say that it does not. (I'm guessing on Natan'el, but I think I know what he would say on the issue.) But I don't think that is supposed to be our focus. The tells us little about what happens after we die because it isn't as important as how we live our lives. Our obedience is the focus, and everything else is of secondary importance. I think we have so much controversy about these other issues because we have so little information on them. Which should tell us something to begin with. Shalom, Nachshon |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 17, 2007 8:22:25 GMT -8
Yep, I echo Nachson's sentiments.
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Post by Zandurian on Aug 17, 2007 17:20:20 GMT -8
I think we have so much controversy about these other issues because we have so little information on them. Which should tell us something to begin with. Shalom, Nachshon Yes, the lack of info is interesting, and the fact that early new covenant evangelists (such as Peter) didn't mention it in their messages. I'm wanting to get all the info I can because I am involved with evangelism and the big irony is that a lot of evangelists convince people that they will be tortured forever in the after life if they don't "say the prayer" and let Jesus in. My point is - if that's the basis of a person's faith (to avoid hell) then they're going there anyway because belief in hell does not constitute a relationship with God. I guess I could (should?) go to a non Messianic board (for lack of a better term) for the next question, but do you guys know what the traditional Jewish (ie- those who are still waiting for Messiah) understanding of this is? Thanks in advance! - Z |
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Post by Zandurian on Aug 23, 2007 0:59:12 GMT -8
I guess I could (should?) go to a non Messianic board (for lack of a better term) for the next question, but do you guys know what the traditional Jewish (ie- those who are still waiting for Messiah) understanding of this is? Thanks in advance! - Z Or do you know of a good place to find this information? |
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Post by Nachshon on Aug 23, 2007 2:22:10 GMT -8
I guess I could (should?) go to a non Messianic board (for lack of a better term) for the next question, but do you guys know what the traditional Jewish (ie- those who are still waiting for Messiah) understanding of this is? Thanks in advance! - Z Or do you know of a good place to find this information? The traditional view is that "hell" (so to speak) is a temporary place of refinement. Traditional Judaism basically accepts a semi-universalist point of view. |
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Post by Zandurian on Sept 12, 2007 20:16:48 GMT -8
Or do you know of a good place to find this information? The traditional view is that "hell" (so to speak) is a temporary place of refinement. Traditional Judaism basically accepts a semi-universalist point of view. Thanks for the info. My gut intuition was that the Hebraic mindset would have it down right (once again). Blessings! |
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Post by Mark on Sept 13, 2007 6:14:15 GMT -8
Just a caution- when you use words like "traditional Judaism" it's very much like lumping together all Christians. It can be particularly offensive to the Jew (as it usually is to a Christian) when you are trying to pin them down along with everyone else on a controversial issue. The truth is that you will find a variety of answers even within different sects of Judaism. I heartily concur with Nachson in this, however, that the focus of the Scriptures deals primarily with this current life. What comes later is mentioned only as validation that it exists and in varying capacities.
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Post by Zandurian on Oct 3, 2007 0:06:46 GMT -8
Just a caution- when you use words like "traditional Judaism" it's very much like lumping together all Christians. It can be particularly offensive to the Jew (as it usually is to a Christian) when you are trying to pin them down along with everyone else on a controversial issue. The truth is that you will find a variety of answers even within different sects of Judaism. I heartily concur with Nachson in this, however, that the focus of the Scriptures deals primarily with this current life. What comes later is mentioned only as validation that it exists and in varying capacities. I know what you mean. I almost want to drop the label of 'Christian' because of what it has come to mean (exclusionary, judgemental, espousing a God of eternal torture). I AT LEAST want people to know the facts about 'hell'. The ignorance out there is staggering. My studies show that sheol/hades is a term denoting a generic state of death - for all who die. I see the 'two compartments of sheol' concept only coming up in a one parable that mentions nothing about faith or salvation. Then I see that Gehenna is spoken of only twelve times by Jesus (on eight occasions - and only to Jews?) and only once by James. Then I see that Gehenna is never mentioned at all by Peter or in any of the epistles of Paul. In the entire book of Acts - thirty years of apostolic ministry - it's never mentioned even once??! And it's supposedly the destination for billions and billions of lost people? Something doesn't add up about that. - byron |
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Post by Mark on Oct 3, 2007 3:46:33 GMT -8
I've been told that the Bible talks about money more than any other individual subject; I wouldn't suggest that we be pre-occupied with the subject. The few references to Hell in the Tanakh are obscure; yet, it is important to remember that even the earliest biblical writers did not live in cultural vacuum. Jewish mythgology parallels that of the ancient Greek and Egyptian thinking that there exists another realm beyond death. What it looks like and who belongs in it's various conditions are as wildly varied is each person's imagination. The story of Samuel and the witch of Endor couldn't but support this fairly universal conviction that something (though vaguely understood) waits for us all out there somewhere. Since this is the case, it seems to me that the lack of information is more support of the existance of such places as heaven and hell than dismissal of them. It is significant to me that the most references to Hell are found in the book of Matthew: the words of the Messiah, to a Jewish audience. His descriptions of Hell are more vivid than any others. Why? He is the Creator of all things. He is the only one who could speak with authority. If there were no basis for the cultural understandings of an afterlife in the Jewish perspective, it would seem that an honest teacher would have taken opportunities to dismiss them; yet Messiah Yeshua rather describes in considerable detail what awaits those who will die. The apostolic writers don't speak much on the subject, first, because their letters are not to impart you with all necessary knowledge but to steer you in the direction of . The apostolic writers do not write with any personal authority; but quote from Old Testament teachings and understanding. Since so little time is spent in the Old Testament (and even in the teachings of Messiah) concerning Hell, it should be no surprse that the apostolic writers would spend proprtionately little time on the subject. |
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Ely
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Post by Ely on Oct 3, 2007 11:37:31 GMT -8
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Post by Zandurian on Oct 4, 2007 18:01:08 GMT -8
I'm listening even as I type. I've always known about universal salvation (since '77) but never got into the fight against the mis-conceptions about God till I saw my youngest daughter (16) going into a depression about the state of a world which she had been led to believe was hi-jacked by the devil/man's free will. Now I'm in it up to my gills - family, friends, church - freaking out because I don't believe in a God of eternal torture. It's like the dark ages or something!!! blessings, - Byron |
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Ely
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Post by Ely on Oct 5, 2007 4:12:26 GMT -8
I've always known about universal salvation (since '77) but never got into the fight against the mis-conceptions about God till I saw my youngest daughter (16) going into a depression about the state of a world which she had been led to believe was hi-jacked by the devil/man's free will. Now I'm in it up to my gills - family, friends, church - freaking out because I don't believe in a God of eternal torture. It's like the dark ages or something!!! Though I don't hold to universal salvation (I'm a conditional immortality, basically), I can relate to what you're saying. It always saddens me when I come across people who are driven by a negative desire to avoid "hell" rather an a positive desire to please God. |
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Post by Zandurian on Oct 6, 2007 0:55:27 GMT -8
It always saddens me when I come across people who are driven by a negative desire to avoid "hell" rather an a positive desire to please God. Yes, it's  . - byron |
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Post by Mark on Oct 6, 2007 5:50:02 GMT -8
As has been said before, the Bible is inconclusive on the subject of Hell. There at least three interpretations that are supportable. Anyone becoming dogmatic upon one seeking to shore their own position, not being true to the text. It is , that this has become a tactic of evangelism: turn or burn. I struggle with that almost as much as in the days when Pastors had candy at the altar for children who would come forward and pray. It's really the same sort of manipulation. Yet we are not convinced of eternal truth; but transofrmed by the power of Adonai (as Paul said in 1st Corinthians 1:18-31). The evangelist, biblically is not God's door-to-door salesman. He is the heralder of the good news; and shall preach the word whether it be to dog or doorpost. It is the Spirit of God who brings men to Himself. I am familiar with Mr. Gregg... actually, he lives not too far from me. He has had opportunity to become familiar with me as well; though I'm not sure that he knows me or not. Someone once compared our teachings and sent some of his work to me and some of my work to him. I don't know what was the result, if there was any; but, as a consequence I've heard a number of his teachings. And while I'm sure that he would caution the same against me, he is as prone to read into the text that which justifies his own position as anyone else. He is not Messianic and does not consider to be applicable to the life of the gentile believer (unless things have changed for him in recent years; it's been several years since I have heard his name). Be careful seeking out teachers who justify an individual position as though you were at a theological potluck (ie the internet). It is good to hear a variety of positions and compare them; but to own one man's teachiong as authoritative (or explanatory) in one case but utterly discount something else entirely is a bit dangerous. I am curious as to what your position is regarding the devil and his angels. Will they eventually be reinstated into their former positions of honor? |
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and the Nevi'im teach eternal torment for those who are not redeemed. Natan'el and I will say that it does not. (I'm guessing on Natan'el, but I think I know what he would say on the issue.)
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