What does the Torah teach about universal salvatio

[Nachshon]

Akhiy Mark,
I'm still going to cling to a few things I've said. If you study the Rabbinic writings there are only two views on Hell: 1) no one stays there more than a very short period of time. 2) only a very, very few very, very evil people stays there more than a very short period of time.

Now, as to what you said about it saying more about money, etc. I still believe that what we do, not what we believe, is the most important. As we said at Sinai, "Na'aseh W'nishma" and as Yokhanan HaTalmid wrote, if you say that you love him, but keep not His Mitzwoth, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. As R. Yehoshu'a said, not everyone who cries out "lord, lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those doing the will of the Father in Heaven.
What we believe about Hell or Heaven, She'ol, 'Owlam HaBa, etc. is not the focus. The focus of the Scriptures is very clearly on our actions and what we do. I don't worry too much about theories on Hell, as I don't intend to ever test them. <G>

Simchat Same'akh,
Nachshon

[Ely]

Hey Mark,

I wasn't suggesting that Steve Gregg's teaching on this issue is the last or best word on this issue. But I would say that haven't heard another audio teaching (I'm very, very big on audios) that has better summarised the main views without being dogmatically in favour of one of them. Mr Gregg holds some views concerning Israel, and eschatology that I think are way, way off the mark. But on some other issues, I think he captures biblical truth very well.

I believe it's possible to learn from those with whom one has major differences with. I know what you mean with the internet pot-luck comments, but the fact is that no two saints hold identical beliefs on every single issue.

mark said:

I am curious as to what your position is regarding the devil and his angels. Will they eventually be reinstated into their former positions of honor?

I'm not sure if this was for me but I'll comment anyway. Personally, I'm not too sure what to do with satan. I'm not overly convinced that he is a fallen angel and I'm also unconvinced by the idea that he will one day be in the kingdom. I'm inclined to think not based on passages in Revelation.

Thankfully, the scriptures are much clearer about tthings concerning the kingdom. These are the things which inspire me and which motivate me to serve our God and Father.

[Mark]

During worship this morning I was suddenly struck with a concern that I may have come across too strongly. I'm grateful that you didn't take it in such a way. As I said, I have not run across anything of Mr. Gregg in a long time. He is unquestionably very articulate. Being on dial-up with an older computer, I avoid video and audio files so I admit that I haven't taken the time to listen to the specific teachings you have linked.

[Mark]

Hi Nachson,

The Jewish idea which is a basic equivelant to Catholic pergatory is a post-biblical idea described in Mishnah Eduyot. A lot of ideas that you find in Mishnah were actually reactionary to theological ideas being perpetuated in that day: specifically in this case would likely be a distinguishment from Christianity.
I should explain that "Eduyot" means "evidences" and refers to commentaries of later rabbis explaining the teachings of those earlier. The descriptions and definitions of elom haba (the after-life) are not dwelt upon by earlier writings.

I completely agree with your sentiment that the texts of Scripture are focused upon the hear and now, as opposed to the after-life. It's purpose is not to give us a detailed description of what lies in store; but a course of direction for us to follow today.

[Nachshon]

Shalom Akhiy Mark,
My point was not that the Rabbinic interpretation is correct. I was simply reacting to your statement that there were many different views on She'ol in traditional Judaism, which is not something that I have found to be true, either among my Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform friends, or in my study of rabbinic texts.

I'm glad we're in agreement.

Simchat Same'akh,
Nachshon

[Zandurian]

mark said:

I am curious as to what your position is regarding the devil and his angels. Will they eventually be reinstated into their former positions of honor?

Mark,
Thanks for your responses.

I know this is a whole 'nother can of worms, but I don't see the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages referring to satan at all, it's just pure speculation. Jesus said the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, not a top ranking angel who decided to go bad one day. I am aware of the NT 'angels who left there first estate' etc, but again, there's a TON of assumption going on about the origin of satan (and demons) to conclude that they started out as good guys.

In a way this is at the heart of the eternal torment vs. universal reconciliation debate. The way it's taught in mainsteam Christianity, God doesn't even have sovereignty over His own domain, it's just ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm not prepared to go into this whole thing right now, but I believe the serpent was created by God (per Genesis) and that God also created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for His plan and purposes. Since the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, there's no former glory to be restored to.

I do know universal reconciliationists who hold to the 'reinstatement of honor' that you mentioned. I guess that makes sense if you believe God and satan used to be best buddies (for eons) in heaven.

- byron

[Mark]

Even if Satan were bad from the beginning, since those who do not immediately receive eternal salvation are destined to share in his estate, it is difficult to understand that "a loving God" would condemn even him to eterna damnation. Does it not seem rather pointless?

Once again, these are not positions that are worthy of deeper thought than mere speculation. The Scriptures are not definitive on these matters and neither ought we to be. Yet, my point is that there are reasonably more questions than answers.

Nachson,

I recognize what you are saying and I was probably over-simplistic in my statement. The point is that rabbinical scholars aren't real keen on being boxed into a theologically any more than we are, knowing that there are sharply divided views on the subject even within the description that you have given: "two Jews = three opinions"

[Zandurian]

To all,
I did originally come here to learn more about the and how gentile believers should observe it, but since have gotten involved in countering what I see as a slandering of God's nature/character (not on this forum - but in Christianity in general).

Anyway, I had already registered here, so I chose this site to ask my questions about the Hebraic view of God's punishment. I state all this so as not to be viewed as trying to use this site just to advance my knowledge of Christ as the savior of all men.

Ralph Messer and his school have become a staple at my multi-cultural charismatic 'church', and that's definitely been a good thing, or should I say - a God thing, and I want to see the truth of God's character and plan understood.

I will say that here I have been met with level headed answers/responses as opposed to some Christian forums where I have been accused of being a 'devil' for questioning the existence of an unending fiery torment for all unbelievers.

blessings,

Byron

[Mark]

Hi Bryon,

First I want you to know that members of my own congregation who I count as some of my dearest friends don't hold the same opinion as me on the doctrine of eternal punishment. We can discuss it, if any new information of different perspective might add value or understanding; but as it is, there really isn't that much to talk about.

It is extremely healthy to hear views that challenge us, that cause us to ask ourselves, do we have any old sacred cows we need to slaughter or poorly thought out of presumptions that should be more clearly defined. The Jewish perspective thatsuch discussions are valuable and healthy to either pull away from things I presumed were true but or not, or soldify my convictions in what is right.

Keep in mind, this is not just a n intellectual exercise. We're not discussing irrelevent perspectives on random issues- we're seeking to walk closer in relationship to our Lord and God.

I hope you stick around. I'm just starting to get used to you!

Mark

[Zandurian]

Thanks Mark. I'm still around (7 mos. later- LOL). I actually QUIT my full time 20 year music director job/ministry because I just could not tolerate eternal hell doctrine any longer. I've always known it was false (and that it is absolute insanity!) but all the sudden I had to pull away and not endorse it any longer - by 'endorse' I mean by remaining silent on the subject.

My pastor did amazingly well after our 5 hr. intense discussion on the matter. Other members are not fairing as well and I've been accused of 'denying the faith' etc. and it's definitely been an interesting experience to openly challenge the 'heaven or hell' teaching. Many believers think that's what all this is about.

blessings,
- Byron

[Mark]

Hi Bryon,

I think there are probably more Messianic congregations in Texas than anywhere else in the country! If you are interested in looking for ministry opportunities in that direction, here's a place to start looking:

www.tzion.org/messianic_congregations_in_texas.htm

There are a number of varying perspectives and opinions in the Messianic community regarding Observance and the gentile. One of the code words that we use to determine if a congregation believes that is for both Jew and gentile is FFOZ. If the group believes that One Law is for both Jew and gentile we will say that we agree with FFOZ on Observance.

Mark

[Zandurian]

May 24, 2008 6:47:38 GMT -8 Mark said:

I think there are probably more Messianic congregations in Texas than anywhere else in the country!

I believe it - LoL. I even met a Jewish cowboy once!

Thanks for the link...
- Byron