leth
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Posts: 4
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Post by leth on Jul 26, 2021 20:06:37 GMT -8
Shalom,
As stated by the title I am curious what sects, if any, in the Messianic and related branches perform conversions? How does this process work/look? What congregations do this? (I am interested) Thank you in advance.
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Post by alon on Jul 27, 2021 0:44:20 GMT -8
Shalom, As stated by the title I am curious what sects, if any, in the Messianic and related branches perform conversions? How does this process work/look? What congregations do this? (I am interested) Thank you in advance.
Ruth 1:15-17a (ESV) And she said, “See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.”But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried.
Acts 15:19-21 (ESV)
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Ruth is our example for conversion. She simply decided to follow the God of Israel. "For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried." She was all in. And having been married to one of Naomi's sons she well knew what her commitment was she was making. This was more than just following her motherinlaw, it was a commitment to her God, to follow and worship Him only. In that time it was customary when moving to a new land one would worship the gods of that land. More than this, you would adopt the customs, feasts, and observances of the people of that land:2 Kings 17:27 (ESV) Then the king of Assyria commanded, “Send there one of the priests whom you carried away from there, and let him go and dwell there and teach them the law of the god of the land.”
Recall the people the Assyrians had moved to Israel were having problems, and they blamed them on not knowing how to worship the god(s) of their new land:24 And the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the people of Israel. And they took possession of Samaria and lived in its cities. 25 And at the beginning of their dwelling there, they did not fear the Lord. Therefore the Lord sent lions among them, which killed some of them. 26 So the king of Assyria was told, “The nations that you have carried away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of the land. Therefore he has sent lions among them, and behold, they are killing them, because they do not know the law of the god of the land.”
Ruth, in making this commitment to Naomi was also making a commitment to follow her God, the God of Israel. At that moment Ruth was "converted," just as Rachav (Rahab) before her when she made her commitment to the Hebrew spies. And all Rachav really knew at that time was that the Hebrew God was greater than all other gods! But she made the commitment, and she was saved when Jericho fell. Both women ended up in the lineage of Melech Dovid (King David), and thus HaMoshiach Yeshua Himself. o really all it takes is a covenantal commitment to El Elohe Yisroel, to follow, serve, and worship Him only. This we do by studying and following His Torah. So most Messianic congregations follow the model established in Acts 15 (above), where new converst are given four important things as a starting place. They should abstain from:- things polluted by idols- sexual immorality- what has been strangled (cruelly killed and/or the blood allowed to pool in the carcase)- and from bloodThen note verse 21, "For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.” In every Jewish and Messianic synagogue the parashah (Torah portion) is read every Shabbat. Then there is a teaching from it, and usually some discussion afterwards. Most Messianics use the 66 book Bible familiar to most Christians. However while Christianity looks first at what they think (want) the New Testament to say, then discard anything in the Old Testament that disagrees; we (Messianics) say Torah (the 1st 5 books) is our base, and everything that comes after must agree or it is not scripture. Furthermore newer writings must agree with everything that came before. The Bible is seen as 1 book, and scripture cannot disagree, as it is the Word of the Unchanging God. There are some who, steeped in doctrines of misinterpretation, and not seeing how to make scriptures agree will try to throw out some books and/or the entire works of certain authors. We do not take this view. All of the New and Old Testaments are in complete agreement. As one school puts it, "The Bible does not need to be rewritten, it needs to be reread." Implying of course not modified but read properly, with good exegetical methods snd in complete contextual agreement: historical, political, customary, linguistically; in context with everything the author wrote, and with the entire Biblical narrative.You may find different congregations with different ideas how to conduct a service. The parent synagogue here does a full on Jewish style service. It typically lasts close to 3 hrs. They wear tallits and kippahs and much of their worship is in very good Hebrew. The place I go now conducts service more like a class, no one wears a tallit gadol, but everyone wears either a tallit katan (small tallit worn under the shirt so we can observe the commandment to wear tzitzyot), or some wear their tzitzits on their belt loops (which I disagree with, but not worth causing contention over). We usually go 1 1/2-2 hrs, but that's because we like to discuss the teaching. You may find congregations with different requirements, but I think most are pretty basic as far as accepting you into fellowship. And most should continue to train you in Torah. If they have access to a mikvah they may (should) require you to undergo tevilah (ritual immersion}. Similar to baptism, however we do it sifferent. The Rabbi (or another believer) reads from Torah or the Prophets and you would go into he water and fully immerse yourself three times to make sure at least once every part of you was immersed, including every strand of hair. You may undergo tevilah many times in your walk, and for many reasons (which instruction I will leave to your congregation; or you can go here: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2916/baptism
That's an older thread from back when I was fairly new here. But if I recall it had some good information in it. You could also do a search for mikvah and get several more threads.
Hope this all helps. The main thing to keep in mind is you are making a commitment to God to study and keep His Torah. lso remember it's not as scarry as it sounds. Go slow, and ask for help when you need it, here or with your congregation. And get involved with the congregational activities. Having them is a huge blessing! We can try to explain, but they can show you. And it is always better doing this with ohers.
Dan C |
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leth
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by leth on Jul 29, 2021 22:08:34 GMT -8
Thank you for the response Sir,
Concerning tzitzits, why do you disagree with them on your belt loops? Concerning tallit katan: how exactly do you wear that with shirts that tuck in? Or do you wear them over the shirt? And lastly what is appropriate for the tzitzit coloring? The Bible says a strand of blue must be present in them, but Orthodox and many other sects wear all white or white with a black strand. What gives? Are other colors allowable?
As far as Immersion, what is different between what you describe and that of a Orthodox Jewish group? I don't necessarily want to be accepted in an Orthodox community, except that they would accept me as any other regular person... I eventually hope I can carry a conversation in Hebrew and to read Hebrew, but I care not to be accepted on a religious level outside of that they understand I love the same creator they love. Ultimately, I only care that each path I choose to take is the most legitimate and acceptable path of which hopefully pleases HaShem and pass this information unto my children.
Anyhow, thank you again for your response.
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Post by alon on Jul 30, 2021 0:04:47 GMT -8
Thank you for the response Sir You are welcome.
Concerning tzitzits, why do you disagree with them on your belt loops? It's a personal thing, but the instruction is to wear them on a four cornered garment. And I do wear them on loops I made for my belt when working around power equipment. If the tzitzit is caught into the equipment (which has happened) the loops are made thin enough to break away, where a tallit katan would draw my head into the equipment.
Concerning tallit katan: how exactly do you wear that with shirts that tuck in? Or do you wear them over the shirt? I wear mine tucked in a well when wearing a tucked shirt. We are instructed to wear them as a reminder to us, so I see no problem with tucking them in. I used to have a set with a long loop so I could pull them out to be seen, but theywear and break easily the, so I quit. The parent synagogue of this forum wears tallit katan long enough that the can tuck the shirt, then fold the tallit upward and then pull the tzitzyot out, but that didn't look all that practical to me as some shirts have longer tails, so I never tried it. I just like the tallit kaan, usually with my shirt out so the tzitzit are visible, but sometimes tucked. It's easier than putting the tzitzyot on loops, and seems to me to better fulfill the mitzvah. But it doesn't bother me when others wear them on belt loops. However I imagine it might bother your Orthodox friends.
And lastly what is appropriate for the tzitzit coloring? The Bible says a strand of blue must be present in them, but Orthodox and many other sects wear all white or white with a black strand. What gives? Are other colors allowable? I prefer white wool with a blue shamash. White with 1 blue is what most Messianics wear, but not always wool for many. However if you buy a tallit it will likely come with all white synthetic tzitzyot. Most of Judaism wears theirs like this. The techelet (exact shade of blue) was lost, so they won't just place any color blue on theirs, preferring instead to tie a series of knots in a gematria pattern that alludes to the name of HaShem. The 10-5-6-5 pattern separated by two square knots is most popular. Biblically only the strings are required, but that is the reason for the tradition of tieing knots.
Back to colors: the Bible doesn't specify a color other than a blue shamash. I've seen different colors to match a "colorful" tallit, and even multicolored talit, but the only blue is the shamash. Personally (and again this is just my preference) I am pretty conservative when it comes to kadosh things. and the tallit are what makes the garment kadosh, so I stick with white and a blue shamash.
As far as Immersion, what is different between what you describe and that of a Orthodox Jewish group? I don't necessarily want to be accepted in an Orthodox community, except that they would accept me as any other regular person... There are a few threads with good information on immersion in a mikvah (tevilah) in the archives. Her are a couple:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2916/baptismtheloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2214/question-mikvahI should note that neither mikvah or tevilah are (as far as I know) used in Torah. They are later terms used to describe the elements of ritual immersion. And even among Jews you may hear the term "mikvah" used for the entire process. It's wrong, but is coming to be the "popular usage."
I'm not an authority on how the different sects do tevilah, but since our sources for doing it as we do come from Torah, Talmudic writings, and history I would guess most do it the same as we do and for the same reasons.
I don't necessarily want to be accepted in an Orthodox community, except that they would accept me as any other regular person... As long as you worship Yeshua, you won't be. Most sects view us with suspicion, and many are outright hostile to Messianism.
I eventually hope I can carry a conversation in Hebrew and to read Hebrew, but I care not to be accepted on a religious level outside of that they understand I love the same creator they love. Ultimately, I only care that each path I choose to take is the most legitimate and acceptable path of which hopefully pleases HaShem and pass this information unto my children. I hope you can learn Hebrew. I tried a couple of times, but just never got it. As far as passing on information, that is what we are about here. Truth learned does little good if it is not shared.
Anyhow, thank you again for your response. No problem. Any questions, just ask. Happy to help if we can. |
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Post by alon on Jul 30, 2021 20:10:55 GMT -8
leth, in thinking about it, I may not have given you a complete answer to the question of conversion to Judaism. My old synagogue taught that when we became Messianic we had converted to Judaism. Now I do not have a problem identifying with the Jews. However I do not typically say "I am a Jew," because that introduces expectations that I, not being raised Jewish cannot live up to. I do not have the same history, was not raised in all the traditions, and really have to try to see things from a Hebraic mindset. Furthermore, as a Messianic I do not see myself bound by all the traditions and interpretations of todays Rabbinical Judaism (which is not the same as any Judaism of the 1st cen.).
If the synagogue you are attending says you are converting to Judaism, that is fine. Even Christian doctrine correctly says we are adopted. Just understand that few if any Jews will see it that way. Also Christian friends will likely start coming to you with any and all questions regarding things Jewish. People are funny. People who well knew my background suddenly thought I knew everything about Judaism. I know a lot more now than back then and I still am nowhere near knowing "everything." In fact, Judaism is so varied my wife was raised Jewish and she is no expert either.
So if your synagogue tells you you are Jewish- yes. Who God says is an adopted Jew is. If not, you likely will run into this idea at some point, so the information is not wasted. Meanwhile, if people ask what I am I just say "I am a believer in Messianic Judaism." And if they ask what that is, I then take it as an invitation to tell them (probably) more than they really wanted. Hey, we are at war with ha'satan; so all's fair!
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Post by mystic on Jul 31, 2021 7:45:25 GMT -8
Ruth is our example for conversion. She simply decided to follow the God of Israel. "For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried." She was all in. And having been married to one of Naomi's sons she well knew what her commitment was she was making. This was more than just following her motherinlaw, it was a commitment to her God, to follow and worship Him only. In that time it was customary when moving to a new land one would worship the gods of that land. More than this, you would adopt the customs, feasts, and observances of the people of that land:Ruth, in making this commitment to Naomi was also making a commitment to follow her God, the God of Israel. At that moment Ruth was "converted," just as Rachav (Rahab) before her when she made her commitment to the Hebrew spies. And all Rachav really knew at that time was that the Hebrew God was greater than all other gods! But she made the commitment, and she was saved when Jericho fell. Both women ended up in the lineage of Melech Dovid (King David), and thus HaMoshiach Yeshua Himself. o really all it takes is a
Dan C This is a great post Dan but I have to ask. When I had made my Covenant [commitment] with the God of Israel that day at the Hospital in exchange for him to help my Autistic son , did I convert to anything? My words were simply "God, if you give me back my son I will give you my life and will devote the rest of my life to you". I had never ever considered that I might be converting to anything until now, reading this post. |
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Post by alon on Jul 31, 2021 16:06:31 GMT -8
Ruth is our example for conversion. She simply decided to follow the God of Israel. "For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried." She was all in. And having been married to one of Naomi's sons she well knew what her commitment was she was making. This was more than just following her motherinlaw, it was a commitment to her God, to follow and worship Him only. In that time it was customary when moving to a new land one would worship the gods of that land. More than this, you would adopt the customs, feasts, and observances of the people of that land:Ruth, in making this commitment to Naomi was also making a commitment to follow her God, the God of Israel. At that moment Ruth was "converted," just as Rachav (Rahab) before her when she made her commitment to the Hebrew spies. And all Rachav really knew at that time was that the Hebrew God was greater than all other gods! But she made the commitment, and she was saved when Jericho fell. Both women ended up in the lineage of Melech Dovid (King David), and thus HaMoshiach Yeshua Himself. o really all it takes is a
Dan C This is a great post Dan but I have to ask. When I had made my Covenant [commitment] with the God of Israel that day at the Hospital in exchange for him to help my Autistic son , did I convert to anything? My words were simply "God, if you give me back my son I will give you my life and will devote the rest of my life to you". I had never ever considered that I might be converting to anything until now, reading this post.
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