Baptism

[tonga]

Wasn't sure where to put this question, so figured this was
as good as place as any.

I am interested in the difference, if any, in the use of baptism
in Christianity and in the Messianic faiths.

Are they used for the same reason? What does it represent?
Does one who becomes Messianic need to be baptized, even
if they were Christian before and had already been baptized?

What if someone leaves the faith and comes back, do they
have to be re-baptized?

[jimmie]

Christians claim to be Messianic as they claim to follow Jesus the Messiah. However they generally make little or no attempt to walk according to God’s laws as Jesus did and Messianics do. Baptism is a semble of the rebirth, which is a turning from following man’s ways to following God’s ways. If a priest touched something unclean, he could not eat the holy things unless he washed first. In a similar way, we must be washed before we can partake of the holy things of God.

[David Ben Yosef]

Nov 29, 2010 13:36:16 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Christians claim to be Messianic as they claim to follow Jesus the Messiah. However they generally make little or no attempt to walk according to God’s laws as Jesus did and Messianics do.

I find little difference between Christianity, and the modern Messianic movement. While modern Messianics do indeed recognize that the Law of HaShem has not been abolished, they apparently pick and choose which mitzvot to observe, and which mitzvot to ignore. Exactly how they determine this escapes my grasp.

Nov 29, 2010 13:36:16 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Baptism is a semble of the rebirth, which is a turning from following man’s ways to following God’s ways. If a priest touched something unclean, he could not eat the holy things unless he washed first. In a similar way, we must be washed before we can partake of the holy things of God.

It should also be noted that there are differing views of the actual meaning of baptism within Christianity, and the modern Messianic movement.

However, neither are in accordance to the Jewish practice of mikveh. In my opinion, Christianity, and modern Messianic baptism is NOT the same as Jewish mikveh. They are two completely different things.


Shalom

[tonga]

They are two completely different things.

So what's the difference.

[jimmie]

Mikveh has rules on how and where the vessel is built. How it is filled the first time. Circumcision, washing, paring of nails required prior to entering.

Most Christian baptisms do not carry such requirements. Catholics and Methodist sprinkle while most others require full emersion. Only the Dunkers (a Baptist splinter Group) require three emersions. Non-emersion baptisms are not generally accepted by groups that require emersion.

Messianics require the use of the name during the act of baptism.

[yiska]

speaking of Baptism..... since I am a messianic Jew, should one consider to be baptized again? Or it doesn't apply to any Congregation? Just wondering since this popped up...

[Yedidyah]

It is can be done during the feast of Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets) to be (Mikvah) immersed. The scriptures are clear that it must be flowing water, so a creek or small river as long as the water is flowing. It is also common among Jews and some Messianics to go to a lake, river or to the sea and recite the Tashlich prayers, where we symbolically cast our sins into the water, from the verse "And You shall cast their sins into the depths of the sea." We pick up rocks as we think of the sin within our lives and think about the weight that sin adds and we cast the rocks into the water as a symbol of casting our sins away from us. Baptism was not created by the Christians it has been around since the early scriptures. The earth was immersed (Mikvah)during the flood as the water washed away the wicked. It is a symbol of washing away our sin and being cleansed, it also is a great way to start the Ten days of repentance leading up to Yom Kippur. Here is a good teaching on the subject. www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/metzora_thehopeofyisrael.pdf

[yiska]

Todah Raba Yedidyah! that was very helpful.

[messianicmama]

Mar 20, 2013 17:28:51 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

It is can be done during the feast of Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets) to be (Mikvah) immersed. The scriptures are clear that it must be flowing water, so a creek or small river as long as the water is flowing. It is also common among Jews and some Messianics to go to a lake, river or to the sea and recite the Tashlich prayers, where we symbolically cast our sins into the water, from the verse "And You shall cast their sins into the depths of the sea." We pick up rocks as we think of the sin within our lives and think about the weight that sin adds and we cast the rocks into the water as a symbol of casting our sins away from us. Baptism was not created by the Christians it has been around since the early scriptures. The earth was immersed (Mikvah)during the flood as the water washed away the wicked. It is a symbol of washing away our sin and being cleansed, it also is a great way to start the Ten days of repentance leading up to Yom Kippur. Here is a good teaching on the subject. www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/metzora_thehopeofyisrael.pdf

Awesome. Thanks for this. I agree with all of it. I'm wondering if/how you see mikvah usage I'm connection with messianic judaism. I don't want to be guilty of picking and choosing when it comes to but mikvahs are totally foreign to me. I wad baptized as a Baptist, and we do tashlich but that's it. I'd love to hear you that's ideas!

[alon]

My Rabbi did a darash on tevilah, or baptism. It is total immersion, but done by yourself. The Rabbi stands outside the mikvah and reads from or the prophets. The mikvah (pool or depth of water to be used) must be living water; that is it must be clean and have an inlet and outlet.

One should go through tevilah any time you make a major change in life which will effect you spiritually. (I can't think of any major life changes that wouldn't so you could read that just any major change). This especially applies to accepting Yeshua or to changing your denomination. There are also the rules for tevilah when you are made spiritually unclean.

I plan to go through it at the first opportunity, and at every opportunity thereafter as I'm not really in an area where I have access to a mikvah and Rabbi together. Right now the pool is empty and most of the natural water sources are frozen over. Guess that means I have to shout "unclean, unclean!" whenever I go out until Spring ...

Dan (accumulating uncleanness at an alarming rate!) C

[Questor]

Feb 6, 2014 17:43:51 GMT -8 alon said:

Since I replied to this, the Rabbi did a darash on tevilah, or baptism. It is total immersion, but done by yourself. The Rabbi stands outside the mikvah and reads from or the prophets. The mikvah (pool or depth of water to be used) must be living water; that is it must have an inlet and outlet.

One should go through tevilah any time you make a major change in life which will effect you spiritually. (I can't think of any major life changes that wouldn't so you could read that just any major change). This especially applies to accepting Yeshua or to changing your denomination. There are also the rules for tevilah when you are made spiritually unclean.

I plan to go through it at the first opportunity, and at every opportunity thereafter as I'm not really in an area where I have access to a mikvah and Rabbi together. Right now the pool is empty and most of the natural water sources are frozen over. Guess that means I have to shout "unclean, unclean!" whenever I go out until Spring ...

Dan (accumulating uncleanness at an alarming rate!) C

Alon, you may be unclean, but at least there is no danger of polluting the Tabernacle, which is what the purity laws are about, right?  I am not saying not to keep them...I try to do so myself, but I am still adding on mitzvot a bit at a time.  And Yeshua will stand in the breach until you are ritually perfect.

[Yedidyah]

I cleaned up this thread after the PM I received from the anti- poster. Please keep it on track with the edifying discussion we have had so far.

Shalom!

Yedidyah

I also did a little housecleaning of posts that said nothing useful (a couple of them I am ashamed to say were my own). 

Dan C

[Questor]

Nov 30, 2010 14:15:40 GMT -8 David Ben Yosef said:

Nov 29, 2010 13:36:16 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Christians claim to be Messianic as they claim to follow Jesus the Messiah. However they generally make little or no attempt to walk according to God’s laws as Jesus did and Messianics do.

I find little difference between Christianity, and the modern Messianic movement. While modern Messianics do indeed recognize that the Law of HaShem has not been abolished, they apparently pick and choose which mitzvot to observe, and which mitzvot to ignore. Exactly how they determine this escapes my grasp.

Messianics that added on the Renewed Covenant to the Tanakh have not forsaken their culture, nor their obedience to , including much that was taught them from Rabbinical Judaism, none of which is in the .  We who walked out of pagan ways into Christianity, and then into Messianic Belief are, like the proselytes of old, hearing the , and learning it, but we do not listen to the Oral, Talmudic, and thence Rabinnical rules and regulations that we think are more cultural than G-dly.  In Yeshua, we are covered by grace judicially, but we know that YHVH wants our obedience in order to show our love, and to be of use to Him.  

Having a portion of the Ruach haKodesh since Baptism residing in us, and changing us, we listen to the promptings of our heart as to which of the mitzvot in the that we are lead to in the order in which we are led to them.  Many of the commandments in the are kept by Christians...others must be learned, and the Ruach is teaching us.  We are seeking to learn to apply all that YHVH wants us to do to our lives, and happy to be making progress.  Do we keep all the Mitzvot?  All of us want to keep them, and observe them...all that apply to us Gentiles...being without a Temple, and living outside of Israel.  How we determine them is according to the ...do they apply to us as they are written in ?  If so, then we obey them.

Nov 30, 2010 14:15:40 GMT -8 David Ben Yosef said:

Nov 29, 2010 13:36:16 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Baptism is a semble of the rebirth, which is a turning from following man’s ways to following God’s ways. If a priest touched something unclean, he could not eat the holy things unless he washed first. In a similar way, we must be washed before we can partake of the holy things of God.

It should also be noted that there are differing views of the actual meaning of baptism within Christianity, and the modern Messianic movement.

However, neither are in accordance to the Jewish practice of mikveh. In my opinion, Christianity, and modern Messianic baptism is NOT the same as Jewish mikveh. They are two completely different things.


Shalom

Baptism is merely the public sign of accepting Yeshua as Savior.  It is not quite like a ritual bath to cleanse us from ritual uncleanliness, true.  It is considered to be a representational dying, and rebirth into Salvation.   Immersing oneself in a mikveh however would be a great blessing to have access to, in order to fully keep all the ritual mitzvot.  Unfortunately, where I live is no living water, and there are no baths with sufficient largeness to qualify as a substitute, so I will take the grace given to me by Yeshua since I am reasonably prevented from reasonably partaking of a mikveh.  

However, I promise you if ever I am in Israel, I will not cause any uncleanliness to fall on myself or anyone, so that they will not desecrate the Temple...once it is built again.

[alon]

Nov 28, 2010 10:59:04 GMT -8 tonga said:

I am interested in the difference, if any, in the use of baptism
in Christianity and in the Messianic faiths.

Are they used for the same reason? What does it represent?
Does one who becomes Messianic need to be baptized, even
if they were Christian before and had already been baptized?

What if someone leaves the faith and comes back, do they
have to be re-baptized?

Here is an excerpt from a teaching by Rav S that may answer some of the questions you had:

tevilah- a Jewish ritual bath. The Rabbi stands outside of the mikva and reads the or from the Prophets an individual or group immerses themselves. This is how the Not’srim continued to do it.

In Rome there are paintings at the catacombs which date to the first century depicting Paul officiating at a tevilah. The mikvah is the bath itself, and tevilah is the actual act of immersion. There is a series, and the first frame shows Rav Shaul outside of the mikva reading from the while a man is at the top of the steps of the mikva. In the second scene we see the Rav in the same position while the man is immersing himself. The third scene shows him exiting the mikva on the opposite side. There are numerous paintings and frescoes which dating to the first through third centuries CE which depict tevilah done thus. In each of these, the one undergoing tevilah is nude and enters the waters. The Rabbi, who is reading, is outside the waters and fully clothed. Our Halacha is that we are clothed, but otherwise this is how we do tevilah.

Think of Acts 2: 41, “So those who accepted what he said were immersed, and there were added to the group that day about three thousand people.” Can you imagine trying to individually dunk 3,000 people in one day? Not very likely, so this is how it worked; the Rabbi stood on the banks of the river, lake, etc. and read from scripture. Those undergoing tevilah lined up and went in in ranks and immersed themselves. With the Rabbi standing on the outside of the water, this enabled them to baptize (tevilah) thousands in a day.

Another reason we don’t go into the water with them is to show this is something the individual does completely on their own, of their own free will. We’re not there to catch them either as the protestants do. This is their experience and theirs alone. It’s not that we’re not supporting them, we’re reading them the Scriptures but the actual act of submersion is between them and G-d.

Every part of the body must be submersed. Even the hair. No jewelry is worn and we even like to have them carry a branch of hyssop or parsley with them in reference to the ashes of the red heifer and purification. We also dip three times. The reason for that is to ensure complete immersion.

Immersion doesn’t save one from their sins. It isn’t necessary for Salvation, but it is necessary. Anyone who is of age (12-13 roughly) and is Born Again in Yeshua should be immersed. The Church Fathers/ Christianity taught that it was only to be done once after a person is Saved; but that is incorrect. There are various reasons to be immersed in a mikva:
1. By Jewish women to achieve ritual purity after menstruation or childbirth.
2. By Jewish men to achieve ritual purity.
3. As part of a procedure after conversion.

Another difference in how we and Christians do it is we do not do it in mixed company. It is NOT a spectator sport! We don’t have the distraction of the opposite sex even there.

Tevilah isn’t always about uncleanliness or rebirth. Yeshua was immersed and He was neither unclean or in need of being reborn! He allowed Himself to be immersed as a sign that He was to begin His main ministry. So immersion isn’t just for one thing, it has multiple functions. After a conversion, immersion not only identifies you with Messiah, but afterwards you are also recognized as part of the Nazarene sect.

It does not signify that one is no longer a Jew like many Christian baptisms do. It is not a renunciation of one’s Jewish identity. In fact, here it means the opposite. At Beit Aveinu, it means you’ve identified yourself with an ancient sect of Judaism- the sect of the Nazarenes.

Are they used for the same reason? What does it represent?
Does one who becomes Messianic need to be baptized, even
if they were Christian before and had already been baptized?

Mostly, not the same reason. Both do it as a sign of salvation, but this is the only similarity. To most Messianics, it represents either a change in status or conviction or as an act of ritual purity. And yes, a change of faith from Christian to Messianism would require tevilah.

What if someone leaves the faith and comes back, do they
have to be re-baptized?

Absolutely! This would be a major change of status.

Dan C

[azaliah]

I was baptist also, so I can relate to Alon. When it comes to this thing of Baptism, who decides what rituals are Messianic and from where do they get this information? From the Tanach? Brit'Chashah? The Talmud o.O? Perhaps respected Messianic Rabbi? Just curious. Is there some standard for all sects of Messianic traditions? Is there such a standard?