Divorce and Remarriage

[mystic]

BTW Dan, if a man married a divorced woman then afterwards they both repent, are they still considered as living in sin for the rest of their lives or once [and if] they should repent then no issue going forward so they can continue to live together guilt free and with no further accountability too, any scriptures on this please?

Mod note: we are getting off topic here, so I am moving the discussion to its own thread. Dan

[alon]

Jul 20, 2021 10:18:39 GMT -8 mystic said:

BTW Dan, if a man married a divorced woman then afterwards they both repent, are they still considered as living in sin for the rest of their lives or once [and if] they should repent then no issue going forward so they can continue to live together guilt free and with no further accountability too, any scriptures on this please?

Boy, you just opened a can of worms! The scripture that immediately comes to mind is:

1 Corinthians 7:27 (ESV) Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

However that is from the most difficult passage in a very difficult chapter. And in that chapter Rav Shaul roundly decries marriage to a divorced woman. So I am not sure it applies. The wrench in the machinery here is in your scenario they were remarried while still under a pagan system of belief. I don't know for sure, but I will think on it.

Dan 

[mystic]

Yeah that scripture doesn't make any sense to me at all, I will also do more research on this to see what I might come up with.

[mystic]

Well, you were correct about opening a can of worms and speaking with one Orthodox Rabbi, he said:

A man may marry a woman who was divorced, and does not have to repent for anything – (source: Deuteronomy 24:1-2).

So can this issue be only a Christian decree? 

[alon]

Jul 21, 2021 5:10:28 GMT -8 mystic said:

Well, you were correct about opening a can of worms and speaking with one Orthodox Rabbi, he said:

A man may marry a woman who was divorced, and does not have to repent for anything – (source: Deuteronomy 24:1-2).

So can this issue be only a Christian decree? 

No, it's not just a Christian issue. It's biblical. And Christians are wildly in disagreement on the topic anyhow.

The Orthodox Rabbi was giving an interpretation of This passage:

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (ESV) “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,  and if she goes and becomes another man's wife,  and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,  then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

The problem is the topic here is remarrying a former wife after she has been married to another man. It doesn't really say it was ok to remarry the first time. However it does talk about it as though this happens, and doesn't say it is prohibited, thus leaving open the interpretation that remarriage is ok except under the circumstances stated.

Yeshua as HaMoshiach made the interpretation clear, as was expected of the Messiah:

Matthew 19:3-12 (ESV) And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?”  He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,  and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”  They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.  And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
[Some manuscripts add: and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery; other manuscripts: except for sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery]
 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”  But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.  For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

So we have a problem. What the Messiah made clear, men went and made unclear. The Greek source documents do not agree, indicating there has been tampering with the translations from the original Hebrew. The ESV uses the oldest known manuscript, but puts other common translations in the footnotes. The manuscripts do however agree  Yeshua said "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” 

The last part where it speaks of those "who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven," apparently is speaking of those like Rav Shaul who refrained from sexual activity, though he was not actually a eunuch. Not much later some, like church father Origen took this literally and castrated themselves. Now there's a man who desperately needed to understand Torah:

Leviticus 19:28 (ESV) You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7:10-16 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

First Rav Shaul tells us what God said, "(not I, but the Lord)." Then he apparently interjects his opinion into scripture: "(I, not the Lord)." That is how I, trained as a Christian used to see this. Why would he be so bold as to insert his opinion into the word of God? He was making halacha, as was his responsibility as a shaliach (apostle). Now since this clearly is part of the discussion on divorce and remarriage, it could be taken that he means if you've already remarried, then you become a believer and your spouse does not, still you should remain married. That is reading a bit into what is said, however like most Hebraic writings this is very open ended; open to interpretation. Then there is the problem of being translated into Greek, then other languages, and the tampering or reflecting the views of the translator. So to me it is not that clear. I am sure there will be other interpretations, but that is what I see.

There are other discussions on the subject here which are good background. However they do not answer your specific question.

theloveofgod.proboards.com/post/24565/edit

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2235/divorce

So, remembering that I am not qualified to make halachic rulings, the way I read it is if you are already remarried, and especially if you have children from that marriage, then you should stay married. If divorced and not remarried, it would be best to remain that way. However I would hate to condemn anyone to a life of celibacy, and I'm not a rabbi, so I am not going to say that as an absolute. Neither would I want to lead anyone astray, so I will not say it is ok to remarry. Sorry, best I can do.

Any other opinions on this? It's an important question.

[mystic]

I checked with the Rabbi again stating the same thing you are seeing as I do that the verse is relating to the remarrying of the same divorced woman and not the situation I am describing, however he said:

“A man” who was divorced or not, may marry a woman who was divorced – (source: Deuteronomy 24:2).

[alon]

Jul 22, 2021 4:40:29 GMT -8 mystic said:

I checked with the Rabbi again stating the same thing you are seeing as I do that the verse is relating to the remarrying of the same divorced woman and not the situation I am describing, however he said:

“A man” who was divorced or not, may marry a woman who was divorced – (source: Deuteronomy 24:2).

That is the way they interpret the passage.

Much of the Bible, and indeed the Hebrew language is "open ended," meaning there can be more than one meaning, more than one lesson in what is said. However at times I think the rabbis may take this too far; taking liberties and parsing things out past what is intended. And they of course would not take into account the teachings of Yeshua that might shed more light on what is said.

Christianity on the other hand doesn't go far enough. They like to assign one meaning only and learn that from the teachings of their "church fathers" and maybe their favorite commentator. They seldom look deeper than what they are told it means. One EO person I was talking with about the deeper meanings to be found in scripture said (paraphrasing): "That is why we need the teachings of our faith. I don't believe God revealed Himself to give us a thought exercise where 'everyone's opinion matters.' God revealed Himself not so that we can endlessly debate who He is and what He wants, but so we'd know exactly. We need the teachings passed down by those who established the church, and who faithfully passed these lessons on; who also faithfully study scriptures with the advantage of their training and resources. We need their answers and not more questions." Of course, like all Christians he believes in "Apostolic Succession," and that the unbroken line was passed down through "his" church.

In Messianic Judaism, we tend to cautiously take the view of Judaism. We dig for different lessons and deeper meanings, however we tend as R. Hillel said to "never change the p'shat," the plain meaning of the text. We may bend it some, however.  We use the rabbinic method of interpretation, PaRDeS- an acronym from the method:
- Peshat (פְּשָׁט): plain or simple; the most obvious and simple meaning or a text
- Remez (רֶמֶז): hints; the allegoric (hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond the literal sense
- Derash (דְּרַשׁ): inquire, or seeking;  the comparative (midrashic) meaning; looking at similar occurrences   of words
- Sod (סוֹד): secret, mystery; the esoteric meaning which can only be revealed, not parsed out from text
While Rabbibic Judaism tends to rely on mysticism, such as Kabbalah for those really deep (Sod סוֹד) meanings, we read everything in context with the rest of the Bible, including the Besorah of Yeshua and the Kethuvim shel Shaliachim (the NT), and we pray for guidance trusting God to either lead us in our studies or, at His own discretion to give us a revelation. The difference in us and Christianity here is they say to first read the NT and decide what you think that means, then (maybe) read the OT and make that match. We say the older writings are what defines words, topics, and where we find guidance for the meanings of all that comes later. Torah is our base; if it contradicts Torah it absolutely does not belong in scripture.

So there is why your rabbi believes as he does. A) that is how they interpreet things; B) they tend to do the exact opposite of Christianity, and the Christians cooperate by doing the exact opposite of what Judaism does (one of the few areas of agreement between the two); and C) if you mention Messianism and how we do things you'd likely get a reply like (best NY Jewish accent) "Oy, them! What a bunch of peculiars- why listen to what they say?"
   

[mystic]

Jul 22, 2021 14:36:34 GMT -8 alon said:

So there is why your rabbi believes as he does. A) that is how they interpreet things; B) they tend to do the exact opposite of Christianity, and the Christians cooperate by doing the exact opposite of what Judaism does (one of the few areas of agreement between the two); and C) if you mention Messianism and how we do things you'd likely get a reply like (best NY Jewish accent) "Oy, them! What a bunch of peculiars- why listen to what they say?"
   

That is what I mean by "conflicting scriptures" but I understand what you mean, it's not the scriptures that's conflicting, it is the interpretation of them.

So now my questions becomes who is correct on this remarrying issue, the Jews or the Christ? What should a divorcee do??

[mystic]

This is what I have been able to sum up thus far, please let me know where and if I am wrong?

Divorce is permitted in the OT by Moses but not in the NT by Christ

Remarrying is permitted in the OT just that a divorced woman cannot remarry her Ex but in the NT remarrying is forbidden by both Christ and Paul 

That seems to be the gist of it from my research. This also is good summary illustration of the divide between OT and NT in a nutshell:

www.westmont.edu/~fisk/Lecture%20Outlines/DivorceAndRemarriageInTheGospels.htm

[alon]

Jul 24, 2021 4:27:45 GMT -8 mystic said:

This is what I have been able to sum up thus far, please let me know where and if I am wrong?

Divorce is permitted in the OT by Moses but not in the NT by Christ

Remarrying is permitted in the OT just that a divorced woman cannot remarry her Ex but in the NT remarrying is forbidden by both Christ and Paul 

That seems to be the gist of it from my research.

No, God does not change. Neither do His commandments. Yeshua clarified the OT scriptures and said the only valid reason for divorce, and thus the only reason that will allow you to put away a wife and then remarry is if she is sexually immoral. But of course an Orthodox Rabbi would not consider what Yeshua says as authoritative, so his answer is problematic. Between the two (Yeshua and the rabbi) I'll have to go with what Yeshua said. And since His next statement (or at least how the Greek translators and the church fathers give it to us) is very difficult to understand, I'll just stay with the last understandable thing Yeshua said- to wit, divorcee's should not remarry unless the partner cheated or is otherwise sexually immoral. But that is my unofficial, uneducated, and frankly unkind interpretation.

It's important to note that sexual immorality can take many forms: exhibitionism, foul mouth, always talking about sex, wanting weird sex, bestiality, etc. Not talking about just getting playful every once in a while. And obviously if you demanded it or even went along with it you'd both be at fault. So good judgement would be required here. But even if she just demanded a divorce and you did not want one it could be assumed she intended to have other partners.  

One thing however we need to be clear on- Yeshua did NOT change any laws or instructions from Torah or the entire TNK. He merely made them more clear. 

Dan

[mystic]

Jul 24, 2021 4:53:12 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan

That's what I say but not most Christians. 

So back to my original question please. Whatever the case with whether or not one should remarry, once Adultery is in the scenario by either one or both parties and after they are married, are they considered to be "living" in sin for the rest of their lives? If yes, should they repent then afterwards would it not be considered living in sin anymore?

[alon]

Jul 24, 2021 6:55:56 GMT -8 mystic said:

Jul 24, 2021 4:53:12 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan

That's what I say but not most Christians. 

So back to my original question please. Whatever the case with whether or not one should remarry, once Adultery is in the scenario by either one or both parties and after they are married, are they considered to be "living" in sin for the rest of their lives? If yes, should they repent then afterwards would it not be considered living in sin anymore?

Again, it depends. If they were living in a pagan system when they married then came to know the Word of God, then no. They'd move forward from where they are. But once saved and told the truth while in a covenant relationship with God, then yes, they are living in sin. 

[mystic]

This situation concerned the friend I had told you about who is a divorcee who married a divorced man with both them knowing beforehand the scripture and they are all about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus every time they open their mouth so to speak. When I asked her why they got married knowing the scriptures from both Christ and Paul [of whom she is a great admirer] her response was "well, I figured if the Priest married us then I thought it would be ok". This couple even was even planning on offering marriage counseling services last time we had spoken, I don't know if they had started it but.....