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Post by mystic on Apr 14, 2021 3:10:22 GMT -8
Reading Paul's words "“Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (Corinthians 9:7)."
does that negate the Mosaic law of the 10% tithe?
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Post by alon on Apr 14, 2021 11:13:36 GMT -8
Context, context, context. Always work from context:
2 Corinthians 9:3-8 (ESV) But I am sending the brothers so that our boasting about you may not prove empty in this matter, so that you may be ready, as I said you would be. Otherwise, if some Macedonians come with me and find that you are not ready, we would be humiliated—to say nothing of you—for being so confident. So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to go on ahead to you and arrange in advance for the gift [Gk blessing; twice in this verse] you have promised, so that it may be ready as a willing gift, not as an exaction [Or a gift expecting something in return; Gk greed]. The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.
So this was not about tithes at all, but about offerings given above and beyond the tithe which is expected. Rav Shaul could not have changed one of God's laws even if he had wanted to; and tithing is one of the oldest laws we are told about. Early in Genesis we see men knew they had a responsibility to give back to God. In ch. 4 we see “Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of uthe fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of vthe firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions.”
In Gen 14:20 it says “Abram gave him (Malchi-Tzadek) ya tenth of everything.” Later Gen 26:5 says “because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” So we can infer here Avram was probably being obedient to God when he gave 10% to this representative of the Most High God. Furthermore, in Heb 7:1-3 we see this was probably Yeshua Himself: “For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother tor genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever."
In Gen 28:22 Jacob promises God “And jof all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.” This recurring theme of 1/10th was no accident. God gave laws long before Sinai, and these patriarchs were careful to follow them. Also recall Cain’s sacrifice was rejected. God would not have done so had He not given instructions on what sacrifices to bring.
The term for tithe is עָשַׂר ‛âśar, which implies an ongoing obligation (as opposed to a one time occurrence).
In Lev 27:30-32 it says “Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the LORD’s; it is holy to the LORD. If a man wishes to redeem some of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it. And every tithe of herds and flocks, every tenth animal of all that jpass under the herdsman’s staff, shall be holy to the LORD.” So here the tithe is formalized as a commanded obligation.
In addition to this tithe, there was a festival tithe commanded: Deu 12:17-19 “You may not eat within your towns kthe tithe of your grain or of your wine or of your oil, or the firstborn of your herd or of your flock, or any of your vow offerings that you vow, or your freewill offerings or the contribution that you present, but myou shall eat them before the LORD your God in jthe place that the LORD your God will choose, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, and the Levite who is within your towns. And nyou shall rejoice before the LORD your God in all that you undertake. Take care that you do not neglect the Levite as long as you live in your land.” And there was a tithe for the poor and the Levite in Deu 14:28-29 “At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because ghe has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that ithe LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.”
In the passage Malachi 3:6-12 God (through the prophet) accuses the Hebrews of robbing Him by not tithing. Then in the only place I can think of where He does this, God challenges His people to test Him Him with their giving. He then promises blessings if they do! So this passage kind of puts a great big exclamation point on tithing!
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Post by mystic on Apr 15, 2021 3:36:05 GMT -8
Yes Dan, I have learned the importance of the word "context" from you and always try to look for it, just sometimes it is not 100% clear to me which is why I ask whenever in doubt. Meaning, even though I may see the context, I still ask to be sure  During times of covid with so many people out of work or now have very little income, are we still commanded to tithe? If I remember correctly a while back you had mentioned "the higher commands prevail" or something to that extent, does it apply in this scenario or as long as we are getting income we are still commanded to tithe? |
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Post by alon on Apr 15, 2021 7:04:07 GMT -8
Yes Dan, I have learned the importance of the word "context" from you and always try to look for it, just sometimes it is not 100% clear to me which is why I ask whenever in doubt. Meaning, even though I may see the context, I still ask to be sure During times of covid with so many people out of work or now have very little income, are we still commanded to tithe? If I remember correctly a while back you had mentioned "the higher commands prevail" or something to that extent, does it apply in this scenario or as long as we are getting income we are still commanded to tithe?
And just like I always say "context," I always have to remind everyone what I give is advice. I am not qualified to make halacha. So please, let no one say "Dan told me not to tithe." |
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Post by mosheli on Apr 15, 2021 16:33:00 GMT -8
Some questions:
Does tithing only apply to Jewish messianics/christians/believers/brethren/disciples not gentile christians/messianics/believers/brethren/disciples? or "only an Old Testament requirement"?
Someone said "the bible says tithes were only once every 3 years" (or 3 days?), is that true?
How do we know who to give tithes to, because many "christian" organisations might be ingenuine or waste it on things and they don't go to Godly purposes or needy?
If I give money to people myself to help them in his name does that qualify as tithing?
Is it 10 percent of every form of income/profit/gain/increase/wealth? Gross or net (before or after tax/rates)?
Is ancient Israelite tithes partly covered by modern state/council taxes/rates? (Though Yeshua said "Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's (due)".)
Yeshua did say of the poor widow that she gave more than the others who gave out of plenty. Does that mean he understands if some people can't give as much as 10 percent? (Though 10 percent is smaller or larger amount with smaller or larger incomes.)
Everything we have ultimately comes from G'd. God wants all of us not just 10 percent.
Wasn't Cain's sacrifice primarily rejected because it was works/effort (and wasn't the best), where as Abel's was identifying with Yeshua's sacrifice?
If we keep some laws like tithes but break others like "love one another" its no good. Though none of us can be perfect without G'd/Yeshua.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith."
"The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'"
"one thing you lack".
"Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives."
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Post by alon on Apr 15, 2021 18:20:40 GMT -8
Some questions: Does tithing only apply to Jewish messianics/christians/believers/brethren/disciples not gentile christians/messianics/believers/brethren/disciples? or "only an Old Testament requirement"? Tithing applies to any who claim the Name of the God of Israel.
Someone said "the bible says tithes were only once every 3 years" (or 3 days?), is that true? They probably got that from Deu 14:27-29 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you. “At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.But they had to ignore a verse just previous to it to get that: Deu 14:22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. Part of this was eaten by you and your family, I'm guessing as a communal meal. There is no way all 10% was eaten in one sitting. People can make the Bible say whatever they want, but they always have to go through some linguistic gymnastics to do it.
How do we know who to give tithes to, because many "christian" organizations might be ingenuine or waste it on things and they don't go to Godly purposes or needy? I typically don't give to Christian organizations because they present a false doctrinal base. And I am very careful what Messianic orgs I give to. Just because they say "Messianic" doesn't mean they are. Sacred Names, Ebionites, and all manner of crazies try to fly our flag. I check their SoF and/or doctrinal beliefs. I also check to see how much actually goes to what they say it does. If you have a local Messianic congregation which you attend, obviously your tithes should go there. I give away Bibles with a Messianic "plan of salvation" which I will take the time to share with anyone. But that's a fair chunk of my tithes whenever I order a case of Bibles. You can also give to a Messianic synagogue where you do not attend. But again, I recommend you check them out thoroughly first. You may have to get creative, but the benchmark I use is my tithes should go to furthering the truth of God's Word. If I give money to people myself to help them in his name does that qualify as tithing? That depends. Just giving out money and saying "In God's Name" would probably be a waste. Giving to people who will listen to His Word, say buying a meal for someone and talking to them about Yeshua would be a good use of funds. Ask yourself, "Does this further the truth of God's Word?" If it does, you are probably OK.
Is it 10 percent of every form of income/profit/gain/increase/wealth? Yes.
Is ancient Israelite tithes partly covered by modern state/council taxes/rates? (Though Yeshua said "Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's (due)".) No. They had taxes back then as well. Solomon taxed the Hebrews exorbitantly, and his son Rehoboam was worse! Roman governors also taxed the people of Israel. Taxes are a secular levy, and almost always have nothig to do with furthering God's Word or adding to the kingdom. "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Mark 12:17 Yeshua did say of the poor widow that she gave more than the others who gave out of plenty. Does that mean he understands if some people can't give as much as 10 percent? (Though 10 percent is smaller or larger amount with smaller or larger incomes.) He understands when you don't have much, you must give less, yes. As you say 10% of less is obviously less. Mark 12:41-44 And Jesus sat down opposite the treasury, and began watching how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large amounts. And a poor widow came and put in two lepta coins, which amount to a quadrans. Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”
She gave everything she had before taking care of herself. So if you want to go by this example, you tithe in faith regardless and trust God to supply your needs. Everything we have ultimately comes from G'd. God wants all of us not just 10 percent. True.
Wasn't Cain's sacrifice primarily rejected because it was works/effort (and wasn't the best), where as Abel's was identifying with Yeshua's sacrifice? Abel's was from work. He was a shepherd. Cain's was not what God said to do, and that is why it was unacceptable. How do we know God said sacrifice a sheep? Well, we have already established that God gave instructions, an Oral Torah, if you will. Also we know God is constant, and wherever people are told to sacrifice it is a sheep or goat. And God does not rebuke where He has not given instruction.
If we keep some laws like tithes but break others like "love one another" its no good. Though none of us can be perfect without G'd/Yeshua. True."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith." Which doesn't say don't tithe, rather in addition to your tithing keep the rest of Torah also. Especially the "weightier matters."
"The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'" "one thing you lack". Not sure what your point is there.
"Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives." Tithes was not the subject of that verse. It is from a passage that compares Yeshua, Melchizedek, and the priests in the Temple. Without context it makes no sense at all.
Your giving is between you and God. I can give advice based on he Word. But how much you give, how responsibly you give, and your heart condition are between you and the Almighty. But we all need to remember we will one day stand in His judgement and give account. |
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Post by mystic on Apr 16, 2021 4:26:35 GMT -8
Some questions: How do we know who to give tithes to, because many "christian" organizations might be ingenuine or waste it on things and they don't go to Godly purposes or needy? I typically don't give to Christian organizations because they present a false doctrinal base. And I am very careful what Messianic orgs I give to. Just because they say "Messianic" doesn't mean they are. Sacred Names, Ebionites, and all manner of crazies try to fly our flag. I check their SoF and/or doctrinal beliefs. I also check to see how much actually goes to what they say it does. If you have a local Messianic congregation which you attend, obviously your tithes should go there. I give away Bibles with a Messianic "plan of salvation" which I will take the time to share with anyone. But that's a fair chunk of my tithes whenever I order a case of Bibles. You can also give to a Messianic synagogue where you do not attend. But again, I recommend you check them out thoroughly first. You may have to get creative, but the benchmark I use is my tithes should go to furthering the truth of God's Word. If I give money to people myself to help them in his name does that qualify as tithing? That depends. Just giving out money and saying "In God's Name" would probably be a waste. Giving to people who will listen to His Word, say buying a meal for someone and talking to them about Yeshua would be a good use of funds. Ask yourself, "Does this further the truth of God's Word?" If it does, you are probably OK. Hey moshelli, how's it going brother? Thanks for the great questions! I rotate my 10% tithes between the IFCJ [Meant for Holocaust Survivors], Love a child foundation [Meant for the starving children of Haiti] and the Catholic Church I attend here. I am also thinking of supporting the Ethiopian Jews foundation. First time I am hearing about the "for furthering God's words" aspect. This is not biblical is it? In my opinion, I give to where it's needed the most so I don't know if that's furthering God's words? I used to support an Orphanage but stopped doing it after I had received an email asking for donations for a girl to get married and also when I look at the pics of the children and their surroundings which is the same as mine, I decided that starving elderly and children should take priority. Also, if you sell any household item, would this fall under tithing or is tithing done only from income gained through your job? No Dan, I won't tell God you said not to tithe . |
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Post by alon on Apr 16, 2021 20:22:06 GMT -8
First time I am hearing about the "for furthering God's words" aspect. This is not biblical is it? In my opinion, I give to where it's needed the most so I don't know if that's furthering God's words? What I said was "the benchmark I use is my tithes should go to furthering the truth of God's Word." The "truth of God's Word." It's just the standard I use when deciding to give or not. And while there is no specific command (tat I am aware of), I think it is obvious this s based on biblical principle as given throughout our Bible and other Jewish writings. John 17:17 (ESV) Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.Just giving to "need" is a waste. It is poor use of the resources God has entrusted us with. There will always be "need," much more need than we can ever address. Furthermore some need is based in poor choices and attitudes which they have no intention of changing. Why give to that?
I quit supporting a homeless outreach run by a good friend because he got tied up with another group. He was helping people get into rehab and off drugs. Get jobs. AND he was witnessing to them. But now it has turned into just giving out donated clothes and having a pizza lunch every Friday. It is no longer where my tithes and donations should go. Is there a "need?" Sure, they need clothes and they need to eat. But they need God's Word, and the truth of it at that, more. Not saying don't feed them or clothe them. We are called to do that. But at the same time we should "Sanctify them in the truth." Don't neglect to feed the spirit.
Just giving out money and calling it God's work is easy; but wrong! Matthew 25 tells of the three stewards. Two increased the master's holdings, one did not. The one who did not was cast aside and his portion given to the one who had made the most gains. This was a parable of the kingdom of God. We are called to be good stewards of all He gives us; especially tithes, but also everything else, including donations. I still give to the homeless, but not just any and/or every homeless person. I give to those still trying to better themselves, and who are willing to listen to the truth of God's Word. They don't even have to agree initially, just listen. There may come a point where it is obvious they no longer care about the message, only the meal. At that point yes, I would cut them off. Stewardship can involve difficult decisions.
Also, if you sell any household item, would this fall under tithing or is tithing done only from income gained through your job? Let your conscience be your guide. For me, if it is a small item I let my extra giving cover it. But if it is say $20.00 or more then yes, I'd tithe on it. No Dan, I won't tell God you said not to tithe . LOL, that's a relief! I'll have enough to explain when my time comes as it is! |
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Post by mosheli on Apr 16, 2021 21:00:47 GMT -8
I agree tithes are for God's / Yeshua's word/work, not just humans.
It is true that Cain's sacrifice was not what God had said to do (though I don't think God told them to sacrifice as the words just seem to imply they came up with the idea themselves). But they reason why Abel's was what God wanted was because it was faith and identifying with Yeshua's sacrifice (and his best/first), while Cain's was works/effort (and not his best, and from cursed ground).
My problem is I don't know who to give to here in NZ.
Mystic I wouldn't give to the Catholics because they mix bad and good, and their elite are among the richest in the world. But that is just my opinion, you should do what you think/feel is right from bible & praying and evidences etc.
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Post by mystic on Apr 17, 2021 4:03:25 GMT -8
Thanks guys. Generally, I am always uncomfortable with "witnessing" when I look at the expression on people's faces.
Only reason I give to the Catholic Church is because since I attend their Church every whenever, I feel I should Donate something for using their facility. I will never become Catholic in my lifetime, that's for sure.
I do understand the principle of furthering God's words. If I had more funds I would give to such a cause separately aside from helping the unfortunate. Issue with that is who to give too? It is common knowledge that simply giving to Ministers, one does not know how those funds are being used. I had looked at a documentary on a newer messianic type movement in Israel in which the Speaker had said Pastor Hagee claims to give millions to Israel but according to the speaker, none of it actually helps the Jewish people.
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Post by mystic on Dec 30, 2021 3:18:46 GMT -8
At the end of each year I normally give a tip to the Sanitation workers and the Mailman as they du us favors sometimes during the course of the year. Since Covid my income has been cut in half so my question is, would giving to them from my monthly 10% tithe be biblical please? To be specific, if I give to them it will require all of my tithe for this month so I won't be able to give for this month to any Charitable or God related cause as I normally do.
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Post by alon on Dec 30, 2021 3:48:17 GMT -8
At the end of each year I normally give a tip to the Sanitation workers and the Mailman as they du us favors sometimes during the course of the year. Since Covid my income has been cut in half so my question is, would giving to them from my monthly 10% tithe be biblical please? To be specific, if I give to them it will require all of my tithe for this month so I won't be able to give for this month to any Charitable or God related cause as I normally do. |
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Post by mystic on Dec 30, 2021 6:57:17 GMT -8
That is what I was thinking but guess I needed a 2nd opinion, thanks.
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Post by mystic on Jan 26, 2022 5:20:13 GMT -8
I will be helping a local Disability Non Profit here in NY, can my tithe go towards to their cause too? This is their purpose:
The mission of Disability Pride NYC is to promote inclusion, awareness, and visibility of people with disabilities, and redefine public perception of disability. Our goal is to establish an annual Disability Pride parade in New York City and to support people with disabilities in whatever way we can.
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Post by alon on Jan 27, 2022 7:41:18 GMT -8
I will be helping a local Disability Non Profit here in NY, can my tithe go towards to their cause too? This is their purpose: The mission of Disability Pride NYC is to promote inclusion, awareness, and visibility of people with disabilities, and redefine public perception of disability. Our goal is to establish an annual Disability Pride parade in New York City and to support people with disabilities in whatever way we can. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
