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Post by alon on Jan 23, 2021 19:58:08 GMT -8
Pesach, First-fruits, Unleavened Bread
Exodus 12:3-6 (ESV) Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household. And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. Today we don’t eat the Korban Pesach קרבן פסח. It’s korban, a sacrifice to HaShem– something that can only be done in the Temple/Tabernacle. But when the Temple is rebuilt, this sacrifice will be resumed. We do however eat meat during the Siddur; just it is not sacrificed. Some do not eat lamb because that is what was sacrificed.
Exodus 34:22 (ESV) You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the Firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end. His moedim are important. This connects the Spring and Fall feasts. The time between these two seasons is given to ha’olam for us to bring others to repentance and obedience. I’d say observance here means not only setting aside the days, marking them as holy, but understanding about them and what they represent as well.
Leviticus 23:5-6 (ESV) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight [between the two evenings], is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. Sets the dates and times for Pesach/Unleavened Bread. During this time we eat only unleavened bread, using no leavening agents.
Deuteronomy 16:1 (ESV) “Observe the month of Abib and keep the Passover to the Lord your God,” We are to observe Pesach. For many Meshiacim this will mean doing the best we can. But regardless how little or much we can do, we should set aside the day and observe it the best way possible in our present circumstances.
Numbers 9:2-3 (ESV) “Let the people of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time. On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time; according to all its statutes and all its rules you shall keep it.” Again, the command to keep one of the moedim, pesach. Note: the 14th day is the preparation day. At twilight the day turns over to the 15th. This misleads some, but the 15th day is Pesach, and it starts when the candles are lit on the 14th.
Exodus 12:8-10, 46 (ESV) They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts. And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. … It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. Not universally practiced. But it is a commandment- roast the meat, eat it all that night, burn what remains. And take care not to break any of the bones from whatever meat you cook.
Exodus 12:11 (ESV) In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Lord's Passover. This is generally taken to be specific to those eating the original Passover meal. But that is not how it is stated. We might want our sidurim to reflect this by eating at least part of the meal in this manner.
Exodus 12:14, 24-27 (ESV) “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. … You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever. And when you come to the land that the Lord will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service. And when your children say to you, ‘What do you mean by this service?’ you shall say, ‘It is the sacrifice of the Lord's Passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he struck the Egyptians but spared our houses.’” And the people bowed their heads and worshiped. Simple. Keep Pesach forever, and explain what it means to your children.
Exodus 12:15 (ESV) Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. Check everything, including any prepackaged or prepared foods, cans, etc. Leavening agents are in most. Get rid of them. And we should not try to cheat God by selling them to a neighbor for a dollar and buying them back later.
Exodus 34:18a (ESV) “You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, …” We are to keep Pesach and the week of Unleavened Bread. Eat no leaven in this time.
Deuteronomy 16:3a, 4a (ESV) “You shall eat no leavened bread with it. Seven days you shall eat it with unleavened bread, the bread of affliction … No leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory for seven days,” Eat only unleavened bread for the seven days of the feast. Make no leavened products, and all leavened items should be gone before the evening of the 14th.
Exodus 12:17-20 (ESV) And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.” The phrase “from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening” speaks of the twilight time, when the days turn. So the 14th is a preparation day, then at twilight the seder starts the Sabbath. Then at twilight the 20th when the 21st starts is another Sabbath, during which we sill eat no leaven.
Deuteronomy 16:8 (ESV) For six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord your God. You shall do no work on it. The seventh day of the feast is a “solemn assembly” and should, if possibly be held with believers (preferably Messianic).
Exodus 12:16 (ESV) On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. Unleavened Bread, Pesach to the 7th day, is bookended by Shabbaton. Only food preparation and serving is allowed on these days.
Exodus 12:42 (ESV) It was a night of watching by the Lord, to bring them out of the land of Egypt; so this same night is a night of watching kept to the Lord by all the people of Israel throughout their generations. My wife informs me that Messianic Pesach remembrances are way too short. Jews are usually up into the wee hours of the morning. That’s how the parent synagogue here did theirs when I was privileged to attend.
Exodus 12:43-45, 47-48 (ESV) And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave [servant] that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired worker may eat of it. … All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. To partake, as I read this a person should be Torah Observant, or at least a God-fearer. And if a male he must be circumcised.
Exodus 34:26a (ESV) “The best of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.” We are to bring our best to present before El-Elyon, Most High God (Gen 14:18).
Leviticus 23:7a (ESV) On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; The firsrt day of Pesach should include a holy convocation. We should celebrate it with believers.
Leviticus 23:7b, 8b (ESV) you shall not do any ordinary work. … On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.” The 1st and 7th days of Pesach are a Shabbat. We should do no ordinary work those days.
Leviticus 23:14 (ESV) And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. This speaks of new grain products in Israel. However our harvest for barley and wheat where I am is not until late June through August. So we save some and wave it symbolically.
Numbers 9:6-7,9-11a (ESV) And there were certain men who were unclean through touching a dead body, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day, and they came before Moses and Aaron on that day. And those men said to him, “We are unclean through touching a dead body. Why are we kept from bringing the Lord's offering at its appointed time among the people of Israel?” … The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If any one of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is on a long journey, he shall still keep the Passover to the Lord. In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight they shall keep it. If for some reason you cannot keep Pesach on the commanded day, then an alternative is provided. It may be stretching the point, but if not invited to a seder, whenever possible I try to find a demonstration seder close by and attend that. These usually do not occur on Pesach, but I find one as close as possible. Then I mark the day itself as holy, a Shabbat to the Lord.
Numbers 9:13 (ESV) But if anyone who is clean and is not on a journey fails to keep the Passover, that person shall be cut off from his people because he did not bring the Lord's offering at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin. God’s provision for the unavoidable is not license to just do as we please. If at all possible, hold your Pesach celebration to the appointed time.
Numbers 9:11b-12 (ESV) They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. They shall leave none of it until the morning, nor break any of its bones; according to all the statute for the Passover they shall keep it. The same rules apply to this delayed Pesach as to the regular one.
Numbers 9:14 (ESV) And if a stranger sojourns among you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its rule, so shall he do. You shall have one statute, both for the sojourner and for the native.” Again we are told there is one statute, one law for the sojourner and one for the native Hebrew.
Deuteronomy 16:4b (ESV) nor shall any of the flesh that you sacrifice on the evening of the first day remain all night until morning. Do not leave the meat prepared on the 14th for the pesach seder until the morning. If eaten on the daytime of the 15th then do not leave until the 16th (that evening).
Deuteronomy 16:7a (ESV) And you shall cook it and eat it at the place that the Lord your God will choose. I try to find a demonstration seder as close as possible to Pesach and attend that, then just mark the day at home. While not really a Pesach seder, they are as close as I can now get. And as I read this, without a Temple all sederim since its destruction are pretty much equivalent to demonstration seders anyhow.
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Post by mystic on Mar 12, 2021 5:15:04 GMT -8
I am confused about some aspects of this feast, please help me clarify:
I can't eat "bread" since I am on an AIP Diet for health reasons this means no grains, would that be an issue?
Passover begins Sat march 27 and ends on April 4, at what time? We are to do no work on both Sundays March 28 and April 4th?
Are there any special requirements for the day itself March 27 than the other 6 days?
April 4th Holy Assembly during Covid excusable??
Should a non-circumcised person observe passover??
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Post by alon on Mar 12, 2021 8:10:40 GMT -8
I can't eat "bread" since I am on an AIP Diet for health reasons this means no grains, would that be an issue? Health issues would be the higher mitzvah- if under a doctors orders, eat as instructed by the doc. Or if you just know grains make you ill, don't eat grains. In any case, the commandment is to eat no leaven, so remove all products with leaven in them from the home and you'll be ok. If you cannot remove all foods wit leaven because of your living arrangements, then you'll have to be extra careful what you eat. There are leavening agents in a surprising number of foods. Good rule of thumb is eat fresh fruits, vegitables, and meats. If it was processed, there's a good chance it has some leaven in it.
Passover begins Sat march 27 and ends on April 4, at what time? We are to do no work on both Sundays March 28 and April 4th? All God's feasts start and end on His calendar- the biblical calendar. So the Pesach meal should start at sundown on the 27th. Sh'mini Atzaret (te 8th Day) ends on the 4th at sundown. The 7th day is actually the evening of the 2nd to evening of the 3rd. Since the preparation day is on the weekly Shabbat, I recommend doing as much food prep as possible on Friday. Chabad recommends turning on your stove (building your fire) on Friday and cooking on Shabbat, but I like to avoid cooking then. If I must however I suppose it's a special circumstance. I'd just want to make sure I could explain it to God that it was necessary to do it then instead of Friday.
Are there any special requirements for the day itself March 27 than the other 6 days? Yes, it's another Shabbat. No unnecessary work. And it is a day of a holy convocation, so if possible you should get together with other believers. April 4th Holy Assembly during Covid excusable?? If you are in a high risk category or in a high risk area (and I would assume NYC is a very high risk environment), then once again I'd say health and safety is the higher mizvah. Still, you could gather with close friends if you thought that safe. And regardless, I'd say you should definitely observe the day at home, even if you are the only believer there.
Should a non-circumcised person observe passover?? No. If you or any close family are not circumcised, then you should not attend a seder or eat any part of a seder meal. However you can still mark the feast day by studying about it. Try to dig out the meanings of everything that is done. Read the crucifixion accounts and find the parallels in the customs that grew up around this feast. Find Yeshua in the Passover Seder. In your case, from what you've told me about your household it would be difficult for you to have a decent seder anyhow.
Even if you cannot have a seder, you still should observe all the commandments you can, such as eating no leaven. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 13, 2021 5:06:55 GMT -8
Are there any special requirements for the day itself March 27 than the other 6 days? Yes, it's another Shabbat. No unnecessary work. And it is a day of a holy convocation, so if possible you should get together with other believers. Should a non-circumcised person observe passover?? No. If you or any friends or family are not circumcised, then you should not attend a seder or eat any part of a seder meal. However you can still mark the feast day by studying about it. Try to dig out the meanings of everything that is done. Read the crucifixion accounts and find the parallels in the customs that grew up around this feast. Find Yeshua in the Passover Seder. In your case, from what you've told me about your household it would be difficult for you to have a decent seder anyhow.
Even if you cannot have a seder, you still should observe all the commandments you can, such as eating no leaven. Thx, I reached out to the SDA guy [Keith] to inquire on if they observe the 7 feasts and this below is I think a very interesting response and info: No, Seventh-day Adventists don't observe the Passover week of the Old Testament. We believe that Lord's Supper and the foot washing service instituted by Christ in the New Testament replaced it. (Matt. 26:26-28; Luke 22:14-20; 1 Cor. 11:25-26; John 13:3-5, 14). There were four basic laws found in the Old Testament. They are the laws of health, the civil laws of nations, the ceremonial laws (animal sacrifices) and the moral laws (the Ten Commandments). The laws of health will always be helpful in principle for we all need good health. The civil laws of nations have changed throughout the centuries. The ceremonial laws and their accompanying feast days were replaced at the time of the cross with New Testament ceremonies instituted. That leaves the Ten Commandment moral law that has been the character criterion for all intelligent beings both angelic and human for all time. According to Colossians 2:14-17, a certain law of ordinances was nailed to the cross. This was the ceremonial law of types and shadows that pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. This is why Paul said it was contrary to the Christian. The torn veil in the temple at the death of Christ (Matthew 27:51) indicated the end of the ordinance of animal sacrifices, and Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus "abolished...the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Take note that Colossians 2:16,17 refers to the yearly sabbaths and not the weekly Sabbath of the moral law. These shadowy sabbaths are described in Leviticus 23:24-37. They fell on certain set days of the month, a different day of the week each year, yet they were called sabbaths. But please observe in verses 37 and 38 how they were distinguished from the weekly Sabbath: "These are the feasts of the Lord which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, every thing upon his day, beside the sabbaths of the Lord." The law of the yearly sabbaths, with all its meat and drink offerings, was nailed to the cross, but the great Ten Commandment law with its weekly Sabbath was not affected by that "blotting out" of ordinances. The weekly Sabbath is different from all the other feasts and holy convocations (see Leviticus 23:37, 38) in that it originated at creation (Genesis 2:1-3), whereas the annual feasts and "sabbaths" had their origin with the Jewish nation. The seventh-day Sabbath "was made for man" (Mark 2:27), and hence is of obligation for all men forever; the annual feasts were made for the Jews and ceased to be of obligation when the symbol became reality at the death of Christ (Colossians 2:16, 17). The seventh-day Sabbath is incorporated in the law of God, the Ten Commandments, His constitution for this world. Because it was made before sin entered, it will remain after sin is no more (Isaiah 66:22, 23). On the other hand, the annual Jewish feasts were of only temporal, local, ceremonial application, fitted to conditions in Palestine, and could not be made of worldwide application. This is not to say that one cannot observe the special feast days if they so choose. There are many beautiful truths about God and what He has done that are commemorated in these celebrations, and no doubt the apostles used these occasions of fellowship to present a deeper understanding of gospel truths to other believers. However, this is a simple matter of choice, and not a requirement. |
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Post by alon on Mar 13, 2021 9:10:43 GMT -8
Thx, I reached out to the SDA guy [Keith] to inquire on if they observe the 7 feasts and this below is I think a very interesting response and info:
No, Seventh-day Adventists don't observe the Passover week of the Old Testament. We believe that Lord's Supper and the foot washing service instituted by Christ in the New Testament replaced it. (Matt. 26:26-28; Luke 22:14-20; 1 Cor. 11:25-26; John 13:3-5, 14).
They however absolutely cannot show this in scripture.
There were four basic laws found in the Old Testament. They are the laws of health, the civil laws of nations, the ceremonial laws (animal sacrifices) and the moral laws (the Ten Commandments). The laws of health will always be helpful in principle for we all need good health. The civil laws of nations have changed throughout the centuries. The ceremonial laws and their accompanying feast days were replaced at the time of the cross with New Testament ceremonies instituted. That leaves the Ten Commandment moral law that has been the character criterion for all intelligent beings both angelic and human for all time.
Mans civil laws have always changed. God’s never did. And there were far more moral “laws” (sic.) than just the Ten Commandments.
According to Colossians 2:14-17, a certain law of ordinances was nailed to the cross. This was the ceremonial law of types and shadows that pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. This is why Paul said it was contrary to the Christian. The torn veil in the temple at the death of Christ (Matthew 27:51) indicated the end of the ordinance of animal sacrifices, and Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus "abolished...the law of commandments contained in ordinances."
Colossians 2:14 (ESV) by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
The “record of debt” is what was canceled, which was the penalty for disobedience, NOT the law itself. And he is reading way too much into the torn veil- things NOT stated in scripture. In fact, in one famous prophecy of the Olam HaBa (World to Come) it says:
Isaiah 56:7b (ESV) their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer
So he is dead wrong. Sacrifices were not ended. In fact, Paul participated in the Nazarite vows twice after his accepting Yeshua, and that involved animal sacrifices.
Take note that Colossians 2:16,17 refers to the yearly sabbaths and not the weekly Sabbath of the moral law. These shadowy sabbaths are described in Leviticus 23:24-37. They fell on certain set days of the month, a different day of the week each year, yet they were called sabbaths. But please observe in verses 37 and 38 how they were distinguished from the weekly Sabbath: "These are the feasts of the Lord which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, every thing upon his day, beside the sabbaths of the Lord." The law of the yearly sabbaths, with all its meat and drink offerings, was nailed to the cross, but the great Ten Commandment law with its weekly Sabbath was not affected by that "blotting out" of ordinances.
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
The ones keeping the festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths were the Jews, including the sect of the Notsarim. Christians clearly have twisted this and repeated it so ofen they can no longer see the truth right before them. Sad, really.
Leviticus 23:24-37 says absolutely nothing about nailing any “laws” to the Cross (sic); nor that they will ever be abolished. He is reaching here, trying to obfuscate the truth with meaningless arguments. Waste of our time, but a favorite antinomian tactic.
The weekly Sabbath is different from all the other feasts and holy convocations (see Leviticus 23:37, 38) in that it originated at creation (Genesis 2:1-3), whereas the annual feasts and "sabbaths" had their origin with the Jewish nation. The seventh-day Sabbath "was made for man" (Mark 2:27), and hence is of obligation for all men forever; the annual feasts were made for the Jews and ceased to be of obligation when the symbol became reality at the death of Christ (Colossians 2:16, 17). The seventh-day Sabbath is incorporated in the law of God, the Ten Commandments, His constitution for this world. Because it was made before sin entered, it will remain after sin is no more (Isaiah 66:22, 23). On the other hand, the annual Jewish feasts were of only temporal, local, ceremonial application, fitted to conditions in Palestine, and could not be made of worldwide application.
Many times when God gave those feasts He said they would be “for all your generations.” That means forever. Go to the Moedim section, read our list of verses giving the commandments to keep the feasts and see this for yourself. And while you’re there, see if you can spot where it says “all these feasts are just for you Jews- the Gentiles can go suck eggs! Let me know what you find. Conversely your friend there can not show one place where the feasts were canceled. Ever.
Oh, he could give me scriptures which he misunderstands as he has given you here. And I would as quickly destroy every argument he posits. Not because I am smart, but because I’ve accepted the truth. He holds tenaciously to the lies he was taught.
This is not to say that one cannot observe the special feast days if they so choose. There are many beautiful truths about God and what He has done that are commemorated in these celebrations, and no doubt the apostles used these occasions of fellowship to present a deeper understanding of gospel truths to other believers. However, this is a simple matter of choice, and not a requirement.
God gave us all freewill. You, I, or he may choose to disobey, but here will be consequences.
But since he is wanting to argue doctrine with you, ask him about his becoming a god himself. Does he know what world he will rule? And will he require his subjects to keep any special times? Any laws? Is he going to be willing to suffer a cruel death for his people? Or what the hey, just let ‘em all burn! And most pointedly, will he be upset when they take his “holy” word and twist it, mistranslate it, and teach others it means something different?
(note: they don’t put that out for general consumption, but I had an SDA friend … take a picture of his face when you ask. I’d like to see his expression.)
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Post by mystic on Mar 13, 2021 9:29:33 GMT -8
I don't know him personally, this is all done via email.
I was wondering why he would say that "Jesus abolished"...., didn't Christ say he did not come to abolish the law?
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Post by alon on Mar 13, 2021 18:22:33 GMT -8
I don't know him personally, this is all done via email. Drat! Oh well, I suppose I'll get over it ...I was wondering why he would say that "Jesus abolished"...., didn't Christ say he did not come to abolish the law?
While these can present as severe psychological disorders, we all have a tendency to do it on some level. Sometimes, as in separating work from leisure it is a good thing. However at times it is a very bad thing, and a healthy person must learn to manage when to compartmentalize and when not. Most religions, and Christianity is (sadly) far from the exception teach adherents to do this in an unhealthy manner. Each goes in its/their own mental compartments, and never the twain shall mix. So while he is probably familiar with the reference you make there he simply separates it from the verses he's been taught to pull out and misinterpret. It is so ingrained into his thinking my guess is he just doesn't see how you don't see it.
This is one of the things that sets (true) Messianic Judaism apart from other religious systems. We don't ask you to do that. In fact, how many times have you heard me say "Read it in context?" Think and decide the truth of the Word for yourself. The truth is there. Interpret based on the entire biblical corpus. Context includes so many things- language, customs, geography, everything this author has said in the Bible, all going back to Torah, and much more. ... Many times in many ways Messiainism asks us to NOT compartmentalize!
The price we pay is it gets frustrating trying to talk sense to others who do, and who see this as the norm. And that is almost everyone else we speak to. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 14, 2021 5:13:54 GMT -8
Thanks, I am going to ask him about his words to see what he says about Christ abolishing that law just out of curiosity on my part.
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Post by mystic on Mar 22, 2021 4:29:44 GMT -8
This is Keith's reply below. I still have this issue with people saying we are no longer under the law so no more 10 Commandments since Christ paid for our sins and damnation. It's like since Christ fulfilled the law then we don't have to, this has always been at the heart of my beef with Christians.
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Post by alon on Mar 22, 2021 9:03:45 GMT -8
I used the word "abolished" because this word is used in relationship to the "commandments contained in ordinances" in Ephesians 2:15 (KJV):
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace . . .” Reading this in my interlinear I see the translators transposed the phrases here. The way it reads there, the law of commandments decreed He establish the one new man because He had abolished the enmity BETWEEN THE LAW AND US!
The Greek word, "katargeo," means "to cancel," "to make null and void." Which if you rearrange the sentence makes it a lie, even if you translate the word correctly. Now I need to say that translators have a daunting task, and for the most part they tend to do a good job. But in matters of doctrinal teaching handed down by the church fathers they tend to be so brainwashed by preaching, teaching, and college/seminary courses over the years they just go with the company line and think it correct. They are not the liars here, but sadly this makes it no less a lie than when the church fathers first told it.
"In his flesh" is a reference to the sacrifice of Christ's body on the cross. OK.
”The enmity" may be considered as being in opposition to the "law of commandments.” And there’s the lie.
Christ did away with the enmity by the act of canceling the "law of commandments contained in ordinances.” And again!
The feast days pointed to the coming of the Messiah, but they were no longer necessary when Christ died on the cross. When Christ died on the cross, He fulfilled the law. And what about the fall feasts? He just admitted the Spring feasts were prophetic. Did God suddenly change His plan? Even though He said in both so called “Testaments” he does not change? This is their problem, either they must believe God lied, or the church fathers lied, or hope that we’re all too stupid to notice. I believe God. And while me and you are no geniuses, we ain’t that stupid neither. That leaves him, his commentator, and the church fathers. You can make up your own mind about them.
What does it mean that Christ fulfilled the law? I've inserted below a Bible commentary on the subject: Since he was nice enough to give us the example, let’s parse out what his commentator says:
Jesus' declaration that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, not to abolish them, obviously contains two statements in one. There is something Jesus did and something He did not do. At the same time, Jesus emphasized the eternal nature of the Word of God. And right THERE he begins to compartmentalize! Even a Middle School graduate should know that those are not two separate statements, but that the second phrase modifies/explains the first. There is something He did, and He will not undo it. But to an oversimplified mind what he says will make sense. 2 phrases = 2 things, right? Not if they are not 2 things but 1 thing modified by another.
Jesus goes out of His way to promote the authority of the Law of God. He did not come to abolish the Law, regardless of what the Pharisees accused Him of. In fact, Jesus continues His statement with a commendation for those who teach the Law accurately and hold it in reverence: "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19). Now wait, He abolished the Law but He didn’t, …
Note the qualities that Jesus attributes to the Word of God, referenced as "the Law and the Prophets": 1) The Word is everlasting; it will outlast the natural world. 2) The Word was written with intent; it was meant to be fulfilled. 3) The Word possesses plenary authority; even the smallest letter of it is established. 4) The Word is faithful and trustworthy; "everything" it says will be accomplished. No one hearing Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount could doubt His commitment to the Scriptures. I love it when they make my point for me … except I grew up with this doctrine, so I know where it’s headed. No way he can leave it simply there where Yeshua said it was.
Consider what Jesus did not do in His ministry. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. In other words, Jesus' purpose was not to abrogate the Word, dissolve it, or render it invalid. The Prophets will be fulfilled; the Law will continue to accomplish the purpose for which it was given (see Isaiah 55:10-11). Let’s look at that passage:
Isaiah 55:10-11 (ESV)
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
Exactly what there says the Law is abolished?
Next, consider what Jesus did do. Jesus says that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In other words, Jesus' purpose was to establish the Word, to embody it, Yes … and to fully accomplish all that was written. But He has not done that! There are those pesky fall feasts which are just as prophetic. And thre is the fact of His coming again in power and glory to judge the world. "Christ is the culmination of the law" (Romans 10:4). He chose his translation to say what he wanted. Most translations say “Christ is the end,” which most are trained to think means Christ came and the Law ended. But the word is τέλος telos, which more accurately (as well as contextually) means the end as something to aim at, to aspire to. The Christ, our perfect example.
The predictions of the Prophets concerning the Messiah would be realized in Jesus; the holy standard of the Law would be perfectly upheld by Christ, the strict requirements personally obeyed, and the ceremonial observances finally and fully satisfied. Yes, they would. And don’t his ilk agree Jesus is their perfect example, the one they try to emulate? How then can they intentionally break the law if He did not?
Jesus Christ fulfilled the Prophets in that, in His first coming alone, He fulfilled hundreds of prophecies concerning Himself (e.g., Matthew 1:22; 13:35; John 19:36; Luke 24:44). Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law in at least two ways: as a teacher and as a doer. He taught people to obey the Law (Matthew 22:35-40; Mark 1:44), and He obeyed the Law Himself (John 8:46; 1 Peter 2:22). In living a perfect life, Jesus fulfilled the moral laws; in His sacrificial death, Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws. Christ came not to destroy the old religious system but to build upon it; He came to finish the Old Covenant and establish the New. So, He fulfilled a lot of prophecies. A lot is not all! It’s just a lot. There are more to come, and if He is the Messiah He must fulfill them all! God doesn’t quit. “What He says, he’ll do!”
Jesus came not to destroy the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them. In fact, the ceremonies, sacrifices, and other elements of the Old Covenant were "only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves" (Hebrews 10:1). And they still are only a shadow. So, by the way are the few things Christianity actually gets right. The rest is just darkness. The tabernacle and temple were "holy places made with hands," but they were never meant to be permanent; they were but "copies of the true things" (Hebrews 9:24, ESV). The Law had a built-in expiration date, being filled as it was with "external regulations applying until the time of the new order" (Hebrews 9:10). This verse, even taken out of context says nothing about the Law ending. It can be twisted to sound that way, unless the listener knows to READ EVERYTHING I CONTEXT. vss. 11-12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. He is talking about salvation after Yeshua came as opposed to the temporary covering of the blood of sacrifices. NOTHING thre about the Law ending!
In His fulfillment of the Law and Prophets, Jesus obtained our eternal salvation. Yes! But only if we repent of our sins. And sin is defined in Torah- the so called “Law!” No more were priests required to offer sacrifices and enter the holy place (Hebrews 10:8-14). Jesus has done that for us, once and for all. By grace through faith, we are made right with God: Which is fine, but again does not mean Torah is done away with in whole or in part. "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14). The charges against us were nailed to the Cross, NOT the Law.
There are some (Like ME!!!) who argue that, since Jesus did not "abolish" the Law, then the Law is still in effect-and still binding on New Testament Christians. But Paul is clear that the believer in Christ is no longer under the Law: "We were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the Law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian" (Galatians 3:23-25, BSB). No, you supposedly grew up and can read and understand Torah for yourself. We are not under the Mosaic Law but under "the law of Christ" (see Galatians 6:2). The Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ. One and the same. If he wants to rebrand what he’s peddling, he should call it the “Law of demons.” I’m all about truth in advertising.
If the Law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose-it has not yet been fulfilled. Individually it is still fulfilling its purpose, showing us what sin is and convicting us so we stop. If the Law, as a legal system, is still binding on us today, then Jesus was wrong in claiming to fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save. No, Jesus was right, and so was Paul. You, my dear commentator are the one who is wrong. Thank God, Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and now grants us His righteousness as a free gift. Which thecommentator interprets to mean just do as he sees fit ... the sin of Adam and Chava. "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). No one was ever justified by the Law. Conversely no one can ever be justified without the law. It defines sin. It illustrates sin for us. It tells us the consequences for disobedience and the rewards for obedience. It tells us how to live lives set apart for God. But that’s it. It cannot obey for you. The Law does not, cannot, and never could save anyone. Only God saves those who repent of their sins and keep His “Laws” the best they can. Salvation is and always has been “by grace through faith” in God.
In regard to your last question, Seventh-day Adventists don't observe the Passover or the other feast days of the Old Testament. Once again, according to Colossians 2:14-17, a certain law of ordinances was nailed to the cross. No-no-no matter how many times he repeats his claims-NO! This was the ceremonial law of types and shadows that pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. And yet, he’s an Adventist. If you asked him about the Ten Commandments he’d say his religion is big on those! Especially on Sabbath worship. But where are the 10 found? Where is Sabbath worship commanded? Weren’t those “nailed to the cross?” Jesus did away with the ceremonial ordinances of the feast days by dying on the cross. However, He fulfilled the law by becoming the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Apparently He only did away with the ones Adventists don’t like. Kind of like the rest of Christianity. And most of their doctrinal differences are just arguments over which Laws were done away with. So clearly it was not Yeshua doing away with laws. Elst we’d know for sure which ones. Actually, He never messed around. If He was eradicating laws He’d have trashed ‘em all. He’d have to, because in Matt 22 He said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. … And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” So if one applies, all apply, because all are found in and dependent on each other.
Let me give an analogy: since the God who created all things works from principles we can find the same idea in other applications. I used to do martial arts, and there were three major principles of developing power we worked with. There were a lot of minor principles, but for brevity and simplicity let's just focus on the three main ones. Separate from and different from each other, still part of each was contained in the other. So if you knew one you could extrapolate the others from it. Those were torque, rooting, and structure. Torque is twisting, a good example is when you see a boxer turn his body into a strike. Rooting is your connection to the ground; that boxer has his feet planted so the strike comes up from the ground, making a solid hit. And the third is structure; his body strikes as a unit, no part flailing independently. If he’s not a unit, the connection to ground is broken. And even in a straight jab, muscles and joints move in circular patterns to align and structur that straight strike. Take away any one of these and the others are diminished, ineffective.
Take away any part of the Law and the rest is diminished, meaningless. But your Adventist has a problem: God’s hits are solid, powerful, effective. And so is His Torah.
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Post by mystic on Mar 23, 2021 4:54:36 GMT -8
If the Law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose-it has not yet been fulfilled. Individually it is still fulfilling its purpose, showing us what sin is and convicting us so we stop. If the Law, as a legal system, is still binding on us today, then Jesus was wrong in claiming to fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save. No, Jesus was right, and so was Paul. You, my dear commentator are the one who is wrong. Thank God, Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and now grants us His righteousness as a free gift. Which thecommentator interprets to mean just do as he sees fit ... the sin of Adam and Chava. "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). No one was ever justified by the Law. Conversely no one can ever be justified without the law. It defines sin. It illustrates sin for us. It tells us the consequences for disobedience and the rewards for obedience. It tells us how to live lives set apart for God. But that’s it. It cannot obey for you. The Law does not, cannot, and never could save anyone. Only God saves those who repent of their sins and keep His “Laws” the best they can. Salvation is and always has been “by grace through faith” in God.
In regard to your last question, Seventh-day Adventists don't observe the Passover or the other feast days of the Old Testament. Once again, according to Colossians 2:14-17, a certain law of ordinances was nailed to the cross. No-no-no matter how many times he repeats his claims-NO! This was the ceremonial law of types and shadows that pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. And yet, he’s an Adventist. If you asked him about the Ten Commandments he’d say his religion is big on those! Especially on Sabbath worship. But where are the 10 found? Where is Sabbath worship commanded? Weren’t those “nailed to the cross?” Jesus did away with the ceremonial ordinances of the feast days by dying on the cross. However, He fulfilled the law by becoming the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Apparently He only did away with the ones Adventists don’t like. Kind of like the rest of Christianity. And most of their doctrinal differences are just arguments over which Laws were done away with. So clearly it was not Yeshua doing away with laws. Elst we’d know for sure which ones. Actually, He never messed around. If He was eradicating laws He’d have trashed ‘em all. He’d have to, because in Matt 22 He said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. … And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” So if one applies, all apply, because all are found in and dependent on each other.Let me give an analogy: since the God who created all things works from principles we can find the same idea in other applications. I used to do martial arts, and there were three major principles of developing power we worked with. There were a lot of minor principles, but for brevity and simplicity let's just focus on the three main ones. Separate from and different from each other, still part of each was contained in the other. So if you knew one you could extrapolate the others from it. Those were torque, rooting, and structure. Torque is twisting, a good example is when you see a boxer turn his body into a strike. Rooting is your connection to the ground; that boxer has his feet planted so the strike comes up from the ground, making a solid hit. And the third is structure; his body strikes as a unit, no part flailing independently. If he’s not a unit, the connection to ground is broken. And even in a straight jab, muscles and joints move in circular patterns to align and structur that straight strike. Take away any one of these and the others are diminished, ineffective.
Take away any part of the Law and the rest is diminished, meaningless. But your Adventist has a problem: God’s hits are solid, powerful, effective. And so is His  .What's in bold above is as good as any explanation I have come across thanks! That's a good analogy same as in basketball too, it all starts from the feet even though the ball is released from the fingertips. Who was your fav in Martial Arts, Lee or chan? I too had tampered a little in Martial Arts in my young days. |
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Post by alon on Mar 23, 2021 8:49:55 GMT -8
That's a good analogy same as in basketball too, it all starts from the feet even though the ball is released from the fingertips. Principles are universally true and applicable.
Who was your fav in Martial Arts, Lee or chan? I too had tampered a little in Martial Arts in my young days. Both are good Chinese martial artists. Both made good pictures. Lee used to go hard contact with Parker's crew back when he (Parker) was consulting for Hollywood in the late 60's as well. So neither Lee nor Parker were just in the movie biz. Don't know about Chan's background. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 24, 2021 3:43:34 GMT -8
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Post by mystic on Mar 25, 2021 4:10:55 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2021 5:50:14 GMT -8
Can you eat it during Unleavened Bread? Yes. Can you use it as a substitute for matza in the Pesach Seder? I'm having a bit of trouble picturng that. You could eat the Charoset and horseradish with it ok. But using it as the Afikomen for example might be difficult. I suppose we all do what we have to this year. But I wouldn't mention doing that to your Orthodox friends.
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- there are 70 faces to 
