Actual Commandments- Pesach, First-fruits, Unleavened Bread

[mystic]

I waited too long, my fault. I could have ordered the Matzo bread online for Sunday so I am thinking eat one of those crackers each day this time, next year I will be better prepared and will order the Matzo bread ahead of time.

[mystic]

Sorry no, I had meant if it can be eaten as a substitute for unleavened bread every day during the feast? Also, do you need to eat the bitter herbs every day too in addition to a piece of leavened bread or only for that one meal and can water cress work as the bitter herb?

[mystic]

Wait a minute Dan, all of the research I have been doing on Passover is showing different people doing different things and is totally confusing me, please help me clarify. I want to focus on what God said to do, no traditions. Exodus chapter 12 shows that only on the night of the Passover [tonight] to eat a meal consisting of roasted lamb, bitter herbs [romayne lettuce] and matzo. Eat unleavened bread [and nothing with yeast] for 7 days and remove all yeast from the household during that time. Also, on the first day [tomorrow] and the last day [next Sunday] do no "regular" work. Those are the only commands I am seeing so anything else aside from what's mentioned here would be tradition?

[mystic]

Also Dan, I got this a few minutes ago from a JW:

When Jesus the memorial it was the night of the passover. So his passing of the bread and the wipe in the book of Luke 22 was a New arrangement that replaced the pass over. He said keep doing this in the remembrance of me. Read the account and do some research. The memorial of his death replaced the passover observance.

When I told her that Christ never "replaced" any of God's words or commands she insists HE did. 

I think she might be referring to Christ's words when he said "this cup is the new covenant", what did Christ mean by this anyway?

[alon]

Mar 27, 2021 4:11:10 GMT -8 mystic said:

Sorry no, I had meant if it can be eaten as a substitute for unleavened bread every day during the feast? Also, do you need to eat the bitter herbs every day too in addition to a piece of leavened bread or only for that one meal and can water cress work as the bitter herb?

The commandment is to eat no leaven. Since those have no leaven, I see nothing wrong with eating them any time during Unleavened Bread. I wouldn’t necessarily call them a “replacement for matza,” just kosher for Pesach.

I usually get my matza at Safeways, and they were sure they were going to get some in. They didn’t, but I did manage to get ahold of a couple of small boxes (I usually get a case). So I am almost in the same boat as you. But when the matza is used up, I won’t replace” it, I’ll simply still not eat any leaven until Unleaven Bread ends.

Wait a minute Dan, all of the research I have been doing on Passover is showing different people doing different things and is totally confusing me, please help me clarify. I want to focus on what God said to do, no traditions. Exodus chapter 12 shows that only on the night of the Passover [tonight] to eat a meal consisting of roasted lamb, bitter herbs [romayne lettuce] and matzo. Eat unleavened bread [and nothing with yeast] for 7 days and remove all yeast from the household during that time. Also, on the first day [tomorrow] and the last day [next Sunday] do no "regular" work. Those are the only commands I am seeing so anything else aside from what's mentioned here would be tradition?

There are as many different siddurim out there as there are Jewish sects. Then there are the Messianic sects; and many families have their own variants. They are traditions. But most are fairly similar. Torah was pretty basic in its instructions, leaving the details up to us. So using the list here as a guide, just make sure whatever one you pick is compliant.

The thing is, even in their “man made traditions,” the Jews always (that I know of) perfectly not only portray Yeshua, but are downright prophetic of events that were to occur when He was executed; and after! So don’t eschew these siddurim because they are traditional. Insted, choose one and look for places that portray Yeshua.

Also Dan, I got this a few minutes ago from a JW:
When Jesus the memorial it was the night of the passover. So his passing of the bread and the wipe in the book of Luke 22 was a New arrangement that replaced the pass over. He said keep doing this in the remembrance of me. Read the account and do some research. The memorial of his death replaced the passover observance. … I think she might be referring to Christ's words when he said "this cup is the new covenant", what did Christ mean by this anyway?

Luke 22:14-20 (ESV)  Institution of the Lord's Supper

So right away the translators set the tone in peoples minds by adding this title to the events that they will now describe. This was not part of any of the various source documents. It is something they added because it showcases their theology, and they of course want to help you/us to see things their way.

14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

He earnestly desired what? To “eat this Passover with you.” He didn’t say He desired to change, abolish, or replace Passover. Just He wanted to eat this last one with His closest talmedim.

16 For I tell you I will not eat it [Some mss never eat it again] until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Again, not that none of you (us) will ever eat it again. Just that He will not “until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” Sounds to me like Yeshua Himself will eat of the Passover later in the His own kingdom. Going on we'll see I am right:

17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

This is Jewish wedding language. Traditionally, when a young Jewish man was betrothed he’d share 3 glasses of wine with the brides family as they worked out the terms of the kethuba. These harkened back to the four cups of redemption when his ancestors were freed from Egypt. The fourth cup was to be shared between him and his bride alone at the wedding. This is why they share the glass of wine, then smash the glass, so no one else may ever drink from that glass again. But until he shared that cup with his bride he was not supposed to taste any wine. So Yeshua was not starting anything “new” here. No, He was drawing an analogy to some very old things. He was also telling them and us that all those years of commandments and traditions were tied together in an intricate mosaic- all pointing to this moment in history, when God gave of Himself to once again redeem His people.

19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

It’s not a “new covenant.” It’s a “renewed covenant.” The Hebrew word is the same for both, but contextually since nothing “new” is being done here- nothing that wasn’t done for hundreds of years and/or was not prophesied many times, not the least in this very feast of Pesach/Unleavened Bread- then anyone using their brain would have to conclude this is a renewed, not a new covenant. Sadly most Christian commentators, educators, and translators instead seem incapable of rational thought. They just parrot the lies told by the church fathers for the last two millennia.

“Do this in remembrance of me” refers to participating in the Pesach seder. He is saying the wine and the bread were prophetic analogies of Him and His atoning sacrifice He was about to make. It all ties together. Those four cups were tradition, recalling the four “I will” statement God made to the Hebrew people when delivering them out of Egypt in Exodus 6:6-7:
-- “I will bring you out” — The cup of sanctification
-- “I will deliver you” –  The cup of deliverance
-- “I will redeem you”– the cup of redemption
-- “I will take you”– the cup of restoration 

Yeshua celebrated this final Passover meal with His talmedim. This was a remembrance which included four cups of wine that symbolized His pending sacrifice, relating them to the deliverance from Egypt and our deliverance from the penalty of sin. Taditionally when the first cup of wine was poured, everyone would rise as the eldest male recited the “Kiddush,” the prayer of sanctification, followed by a ceremonial washing, then they broke the unleavened bread. Then Exodus 12:26-27 was reenacted through the traditional Passover questions asked by the youngest child.

Then the second cup was poured and the leader told the story of Israel’s exodus; of how God delivered them from slavery.
Between the second and third cup the Passover meal was eaten. 

Traditionally, the third cup of wine was poured after the meal. Jesus speaks of wine as “the cup after they had eaten” in Luke 22:20, so we know this is the third cup. 
         
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.  For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Luke 22:17-18 ESV 

The third cup was the cup of redemption. Jesus didn’t literally drink this cup. He poured it out for us, just as He would soon pour out His blood for us. The third “I Will” of Ex 6:6 says He will redeem with an outstretched arm. Yeshua, with outstretched arms on the cross/stake, would soon pour out Hs blood, His life, and His very soul for our sins. 
         
The fourth cup, the cup of restoration will be drunk when Yeshua returns again to receive us unto Himself.

So by all means, test the traditions. And if they pass the test, embrace them, and have a great Passover! 

[mystic]

Hmnn, this article too seems to be saying what she is saying:

www.got ... Redacted

This one:

https://lifehope ... Redacted

States that:

Jesus’ disciples continued to keep the Passover annually to remember His sacrifice and still do even to this day, along with the Feast of Unleavened Bread. “Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Corinthians 5:8, penned some 20-plus years after Jesus ascended).

I cannot at this time find any verse showing "Jesus’ disciples continued to keep the Passover annually"?


This one here:

www.bible ... Redacted

Notice that this reminder to keep the Passover was recorded by the apostle Paul some years after the close of the Old Testament era. It is most decidedly a Christian observance.

Is this the verse that is referring to please?

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth 1 Corinthians 5|7-8

If yes, was Paul's reference relating to physically keeping the feast??

Mod note: redacted links contain too many teachings that go against the SoF here.

[alon]

Mar 27, 2021 12:59:55 GMT -8 mystic said:

Hmnn, this article too seems to be saying what she is saying:

www.got ... Redacted
So, because 2 Christians agree Pesach was done away with, replaced by the ordinance of the Lords' Supper you are ready to throw in the towel? You think Yeshua changed things, even though I clearly just showed you He didn't? And there were all the ways Passover ties into the rest of scripture, but those mean nothing?

This one:

https://lifehopeand ... redacted
States that:

Jesus’ disciples continued to keep the Passover annually to remember His sacrifice and still do even to this day, along with the Feast of Unleavened Bread. “Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Corinthians 5:8, penned some 20-plus years after Jesus ascended).

I cannot at this time find any verse showing "Jesus’ disciples continued to keep the Passover annually"?

That second one wasn't too bad, even though it did start with the age old Christian question "Did the God of the Old Testament do things that Jesus Christ had to clean up?" The God of the Old vs. the God of the New; might as well just use 2 small "g's" there and relegate "God" and "Jesus" to the pantheon of Greek and Roman deities!

There are a few scriptures which say the apostles kept the feasts, including Pesach. But they don't just say "We all kept the feasts." Why would they? It was so common a thing to them as to be unremarkable. However if you look close you can see it. One such passage dealing specificaly with Pesach and Unleavened Bread:

Acts 12:1-3 (ESV) About that time Herod the king laid violent hands on some who belonged to the church.  He killed James the brother of John with the sword,  and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread.

Herod was a client king of Rome in Judea, where Jerusalem was. He was able to find Peter because he was in Jerusalem for the Passover, and as we've discussed many times:
-- the "church" is ἐκκλησία ekklēsia, an assembly- there was no "church" and this meant members of the sect of the Notsarim, wo the Sadducees hated with a passion
-- and the "Jews" were Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, which can mean either Jews in the broader sense or more probably just Judeans, and in this case some specific Judeans, the Sadducees who were in control of the Temple in Jerusalem 
Now reread without the Christian brainwashing and with the historical facts I just gave you and come to your own conclusion.


This one here:

www.bibletools ... Redacted

Notice that this reminder to keep the Passover was recorded by the apostle Paul some years after the close of the Old Testament era. It is most decidedly a Christian observance.

Is this the verse that is referring to please?

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth 1 Corinthians 5|7-8

If yes, was Paul's reference relating to physically keeping the feast??

That 3rd artical makes so many Christian errors, I cannot beggin to know what scripture they referred to. They got a few things right too, but in this case a lot of leaven leavens the whole pantry!

I would point out that the passage you quote is another place where the feasts are kept. Not only that, we are told to "keep the feast," not to have a Lord's Supper once a week, or month, or however often. But to "keep the feast." So didn't you kind of answer your own question?

Note: there are many teachings in those sites that go against our SoF here, so I will have to go back and redact them. Dan C

[mystic]

Mar 27, 2021 13:47:02 GMT -8 alon said:

Mar 27, 2021 12:59:55 GMT -8 mystic said:

Hmnn, this article too seems to be saying what she is saying:

www.got ... Redacted
So, because 2 Christians agree Pesach was done away with, replaced by the ordinance of the Lords' Supper you are ready to throw in the towel? You think Yeshua changed things, even though I clearly just showed you He didn't? And there were all the ways Passover ties into the rest of scripture, but those mean nothing?

When did I ever say I was ready to throw in the towel? I had seen even more articles supporting her claim, that doesn't change my personal opinion

[alon]

Mar 29, 2021 3:43:22 GMT -8 mystic said:

When did I ever say I was ready to throw in the towel? I had seen even more articles supporting her claim, that doesn't change my personal opinion :)

Sorry I misread you. Just the tone, and I was in a hurry. 

The Bible is not always clear about things. Sometimes it is the language and cultural differences, as in this case some things like keeping the feasts, especially the shalosh regalim were so common they would not have just made a declarative statement like "We keep the feasts." So we must look for clues in scripture where they either:
* were keeping the feasts- “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” Acts 2:1 
* or were intending to keep the feasts- "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God      willing." Acts 18:21 
* or at times we must use inductive logic to make a weak argument they were keeping a feast day- "and Jesus was walking in the  temple, in the colonnade of Solomon." John 10:23 

Christian doctrine depends on this seeming ambiguity in scripture to twist the word to mean what the church fathers wanted. Our job as Messianics is to dig deeper and find the truth. Whether or not they will listen is an entirely different matter.

Hope that is more help.

Dan

[mystic]

Those are great scriptures which relates to this, thanks.

For all future references, whenever I post a link supporting a Christian's claim it is only to show where they might be getting their info/beliefs from and not at all means I share their beliefs.

I did not hear back from her after sending her our info so I am assuming/hoping she is now seeing thinga in a different light.

[mystic]

I am getting confused about a few aspects of Passover celebration, please help me clarify for my notes:

PASSOVER:
Eat Matzo every day for 7 days if the need to eat bread otherwise eat nothing leaven.
Seder meal only one time and when?? On first night of Passover eat roasted lamb, romayne lettuce and Matzo
Sabbath days when?? First and last nights of Passover [2 Sundays]
Is the seder biblical?? Yes

Some are saying as long as you eat bread it should be unleavened but if no need to eat bread then it's ok so is the commandment to eat Matzo on each of the 7 days as I am thinking?

Is the Seder meal to be eaten only on the first Sunday night of Passover or on both Sundays? 

Also, if I remember correctly Dan, you had said that if someone is not circumcized he should not eat the passover meal so I am thinking he can celebrate the everything else during Passover but not this meal?

Is the commandment to eat only roasted lamb or can you prepare the lamb any way you choose?

[alon]

Apr 10, 2021 9:28:51 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am getting confused about a few aspects of Passover celebration, please help me clarify for my notes:

PASSOVER:
Eat Matzo every day for 7 days if the need to eat bread otherwise eat nothing leaven. ... Some are saying as long as you eat bread it should be unleavened but if no need to eat bread then it's ok so is the commandment to eat Matzo on each of the 7 days as I am thinking?
The commandment is to eat no leaven for the 7 days of Unleavened bread; 15-21 Nissan. 

Seder meal only one time and when??
Typically the evening as 15 Nissan starts. If that's not possible, then any time on the 15th. 

On first night of Passover eat roasted lamb, romayne lettuce and Matzo ... Is the commandment to eat only roasted lamb or can you prepare the lamb any way you choose?

Typicaly we eat any kosher meat other than lamb. This is because lambs were a sacrifice done at the Temple, and that no longer stands. But whatever eat you choose should be roasted, and no bones broken.

Sabbath days when?? First and last nights of Passover [2 Sundays]
Well, Sundays have nothing to do with it. Sabbaths, on the other hand occur weekly as well as at commanded times. Here the 1st and last days are Sabbaths.

Is the seder biblical?? Yes
A "seder" is just an order of service. It is biblical in the sense we are commanded to keep Passover by eating a meal. Also some elements, like the retelling of the Exodus story are commanded. But most of it is tradition, and can vary from sect to sect and family to family. But most are pretty close. What is interesting to me is that even the traditions point undeniably to Yeshua!  

Is the Seder meal to be eaten only on the first Sunday night of Passover or on both Sundays? 
Only on the first evening of Passover (or the day of the 15th if unable to do it on the evening).

Also, if I remember correctly Dan, you had said that if someone is not circumcized he should not eat the passover meal so I am thinking he can celebrate the everything else during Passover but not this meal?
That is correct. The uncircumcised cannot partake. But they can keep the Shabbat and read on their own.